http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5864228.ece

If someone has already posted it in another thread then please delete mine.

I am taking these claims about who said what to whom with a huge pinch of Salt, and am not going to comment further to give certain people further ammunition. I am sure they will be online in the small hours as the usually are to check on the pot !!!!!

And maybe give it a little stir :-O

that certain ppl ;) have been on allready and yes im on later most nights and see them here !!!

all i want to say about that report is what ever !!!!

I can only comment on one thing: I didn't smell urine when I was there on the H & T Day. Everything was clean and the dogs didn't look stressed most lay losely in their stalls, only a few smallies were in crates.

> I didn't smell urine when I was there on the H & T Day

me neither otterhound, i took my boy out the side door for a few toilet breaks, he didnt urinate once inside. most dogs looked pretty relaxed to me. my boy snoozed quite happily on his large comfy piece of vet bed in his bench, and every so often went for a wee walk around the hall, and lapped up all the attention from the public!

Of all the years I've been to Crufts, whether as a spectator, an exhibitor or on Discover Dogs, the only place that smelled of urine were the dogs' designated toilet areas - which is fair enough. Sometimes ringmarker posts get 'claimed' by male dogs. but never enough to smell.

Poetic licence, methinks.

She was there with Beverley Cuddy on Thursday, she spent time at the Our Dogs stand telling us that we should not be calling for a right to reply in the national media, so I hear. Like all hypocrites they cannot stay away! They want to be involved with show breeders, but why if we are all so very bad? Surely if they are so insightful and knowledgeable and know what they are doing they would have produced the perfect dog by now?

It was suggested on Jemimas own forum that all pedigree dogs should be fit enough to perform the function it was developed for and it should be tested at Crufts for this ability to perform it's orginal function.... I assume that means we should roast a chow? Or have a flock of sheep for the collies, or rat pits for the terriers, bears and bulls for baiting and what about breeds developed for dog fighting? Now that could make Crufts very interesting! It would also make Crufts a place I would not want to be at!

I'm a  bit curious about the range of breeds "observed", the tone of the article seems to tend towards Thursday being the day JH says she visited, cerntianly it is mentioned 2 or 3 times, and no other day is, however she suggests watching Pugs, Pekes and Bulldogs (Friday).  Do we assume the objecitonable smell had vanished by Friday, or was the mention of these other breeds some more poetic licence?  And the converstions mentioned are certainly unusual - no passing stranger has ever confided in me that their dog's sibling had a luxating patella, or any other defect, compeletly out of the blue!

> And the converstions mentioned are certainly unusual - no passing stranger has ever confided in me that their dog's sibling had a luxating patella, or any other defect, compeletly out of the blue

Me neither! On the other hand Jemima tells us we hide everything, and criticises us for doing so, now she appears to be using an open and honest breeder to justify her silly article! Can't have it both ways!!! By the way did you notice that Margaret Carter ahs had a reply published to Jemimas article? She claims we are only just starting to test our dogs thanks to Jemimas programme!

> By the way did you notice that Margaret Carter ahs had a reply published to Jemimas article? She claims we are only just starting to test our dogs thanks to Jemimas programme!

How odd as Roodee's father MRI scanned over a year ago

Oh well, we all must have been hallucinating the tests up to this point ;)

And what norty dogs we have!  Can you believe it? they haven't changed a bit since the airing of 'that' show?  The least they could have done is sorted themselves out, the bulldogs should have grown longer legs and noses while they slept - and passed them on to their pups, and those awful bassets! why on earth didn't they change their eyes while they slept and also grow longer legs?

Hmmm.. could it be that changing their physical structure is going to take decades while knowledgeable breeders ensure that the changes are also accompanied by proper health testing and not just use the most likely candidates regardless of health?

But then,what do breeders know?  Some of them have only been working on it for the last 2 or 3 decades.

> Oh well, we all must have been hallucinating the tests up to this point ;-)

That's the answer I must stop eating those mushrooms from the bottom of the garden where the fairies live.

I have forgotten to tell my dogs they should have changed overnight too<hits self over head with rolling pin>

i can show her the bills for the tests should she wish.........

:( she just doesn't give up does she?! How I detest this woman!!

The best thing to come out of it all was the wonderful coverage by crufts itself.
Far far better than ANY coverage the BBC did,also no stupid presenters
or people trying to grab 5 mins of fame by getting near the filmcrews THANKYOU Jemima Puddleduck for that.

We did discover dogs with the bulldogs on Thursday and had a wonderful time,
lots of sensible people,1 or 2 silly questions but that seemed to relate to mating the alternative type of bulldog.
The dogs loved it and even as we were packing up to come home the dogs still insisted on saying hello to everyone.

I didnt smell anything at Crufts and I was there Thursday Friday and Sunday.

perhaps it was her perfume she could smell??

It's not that the basset and bloodhounds' red-rimmed eyes are as sore and saggy as last year, because of course it's going to take time to change things. No, the reason for my heavy heart is that, apart from a few pockets of hope, Crufts 2009 burns with resentment that outsiders have come in and turned the world upside down.



I don't think that Crufts burns with resentment that outsiders have come it and turned the world upside down at all just that they over exagerated everything with no opportunity to put the " real" side out there.

I am pleased whole heartedly that there will be improvements to some breeds but I think it is a dam disgrace that everyone has been tarred with the same brush and just because she can't understand the reasons "fully" behind dog showing nobody should show dogs..   sorry justs but from someone who is a very very open minded person she needs a professional kick up the a-s...

Ego massaging and professional gains have as far as I am concerned went on long enough.  Her attitude is not helping at all.   I gave credit to some of the show content in the beginning but this on going biased attitude with swing even the most open minded.

( off my high horse)

The best thing to come out of it all was the wonderful coverage by crufts itself.
Couldn't agree more it seems to have went down a hit. I read today comments from someone in my breed thought we should write and support the KC's efforts on this one. The KC have many faults but I think they did their best on this occasion.

> It was suggested on Jemimas own forum that all pedigree dogs should be fit enough to perform the function it was developed for and it should be tested at Crufts for this ability to perform it's orginal function.... I assume that means we should roast a chow? Or have a flock of sheep for the collies, or rat pits for the terriers, bears and bulls for baiting and what about breeds developed for dog fighting? Now that could make Crufts very interesting! It would also make Crufts a place I would not want to be at!

i wonder if jemima would volunteer to play poacher for my breed?

> i wonder if jemima would volunteer to play poacher for my breed

Astarte... i believe my breed is best suited for that job

> The KC have many faults but I think they did their best on this occasion.

quite, on pretty short notice to (did they not just set up the online thing a few weeks ago?) the coverage was much better and i hope that they do the same (perhaps expanded?) next year

lol, now now! share!

LOL!
Norty Astarte :-D

lol. well what a silly suggestion to make! are we to outlaw breeds that cannot reasonably do a working test? seriously, whos keen to be hunted by various mastiffs or guarded against by a black russian terrier or a rotti or something? and while we are accussed of the most horrible things she, perhaps inadvertantly, is promoting blood sports for terriers and bull breeds.

i am delighted that the kc got a bit of a boot up the bum in dealing with certain issues but i think it has now gone from one extreme (tortoise speed) to the other (ill considered haste). despite the fact that the kc have made changes this glory hunter marches on smearing good people with the swill of her unsupportable opinions (as we know from reading her frankly ill considered posts)

ohhh, sorry, little rant there. anyway, crufts was lovely, the dogs were great as usual, i am sad i was not there and may the gods help me find the patience to cope with jemima and her cronies :)

Patience, a yes, it has always eluded me I'm afraid to say.  I did enjoy the Crufts coverage I have to say, much better than the beeb ever did.  And great to have Peter Purves on board with the other guy, Frank Kane I think?

I'd like to test my dogs at water retrieving actually :-D I might stand a better chance in the show ring then as one bedraggled poodle must look like another (good thing the portuguese water dogs are on a different day or I'd walk into the wrong ring lol).

"Try telling that to the whippets here. Many of the show dogs are very inbred and suffer from the immune system problems that occur frequently when you mate close relatives together for generation after generation."

I can't wait to hear about these dogs Jemima because  you seem to have the advantage on me knowing who they are.  Where did all this nonsense come from.  The only problem I have with my show whippets is that on the days they are not showing (approximately  345 each year), they will insist on trying to catch rabbits and squirrels, and racing about in the field, I wonder why they do that, oh yes -  I've got it, that's what they were bred to do.

And I thought the majority of immune system problems were down to vaccinations? ;-)

> "Try telling that to the whippets here. Many of the show dogs are very inbred and suffer from the immune system problems that occur frequently when you mate close relatives together for generation after generation."
>
>

ah yes... i have never seen anything but a live wire healthy whippet. i wonder where she got her info? my sis's girl is a granddaughter (I think? something like that) of the whippet that took crufts BIS a few years ago, no suggestion of any immune system prob there.

do you think jemima has gotten confused between in breeding and line breeding? being of course totally different things...

its scary really,
all these proffessionals that jemima keeps finding that have this research (presumably that has cost a lot to do) not one of them have approached the k.c or the b.v.a

The thing is Mahonc, that these "professionals" research is owned by the establishment they work for - they can't just go and share it willy nilly.  I'm bewildered as to how JH has had access to this research.  Scientific papers are also not published as scientific fact, they are published for other scientists to argue over.  They are also very difficult to read and understand if you are Joe Bloggs.  And I've tailored enough statistical "facts" to know how easy it is to do to get the desired effect ;-)

I assume she didn't walk round with a name badge on or she would have been lynched !

> I assume she didn't walk round with a name badge on or she would have been lynched !

would you not have shared your coffee with her?

> Scientific papers are also not published as scientific fact, they are published for other scientists to argue over.

quite, anyone whos spent any time with accademics knows their is no such thing as fact in science, only what the evidence suggests-it used to be 'fact' that you could tell a persons personality by the lumps on their head.

i did ask jemima for her references in a thread ages ago and as i recall she said she's post them (i might be wrong though)...interestingly they have never appeared...

I wonder how we test the lap dogs for suitability for function?  Most might be just a little to fit and healthy to be satisfied with a long lap sit while acutally at a show!  And how would you decide how long is enough to prove it is adequate as lap dog?  :)

it used to be 'fact' that you could tell a persons personality by the lumps on their head

LOL! Quite, my esteemed colleague.  I'm quite sure I'd have been drowned as a witch (if they floated they were a witch and if they didn't then woops:-) ) if we believe everything the academics told us.

ROFL Gwen!!! I am sure there are some mastiff owners who have dogs that could compete in the lap dog competition :-)

Well I am delighted to say that of all the people who came around admiring the dogs and stopping to talk, not one mentioned 'that' programme and were just happy to admire the dogs and talk about them. So hopefully Jemima will eventually get the message that not all the public are gullible and don't believe that all breeders should be damned. Pity, as her programme could have been very informative and helpful if she would have been truthful.

> I'm quite sure I'd have been drowned as a witch (if they floated they were a witch and if they didn't then woops:-) ) if we believe everything the academics told us.

lol, well being a pagan i'd be done for anyway and i am very floaty in water :)

> wonder how we test the lap dogs for suitability for function?

ohhh, can i volunteer as a judge?

> I am sure there are some mastiff owners who have dogs that could compete in the lap dog competition :-)

my lad would give any toy breed a run for their money :) he uses the clever technique of making your leg fall asleep to stop his sitter running away :)

As some benches were next to the exercising areas it's not surprising she could smell urine, but of course, if that's where she was she wouldn't mention that as it wouldn't add to the effect of slagging off us awful show people.

I for one can say that my dogs extremely enjoyed their time at Crufts especially my 10 month old who did two days on the run and was hyper throughout. She was such a happy soul that I had numerous requests to sell her and they were serious requests to!

> As some benches were next to the exercising areas it's not surprising she could smell urine, but of course, if that's where she was she wouldn't mention that as it wouldn't add to the effect of slagging off us awful show people.
>

that did annoy me, as if they are being kept in some hoval. ohhh, it makes me mad...

gods? that patience please? :) deep soothing breaths...

Erm... actually i love crufts, and spend all 4 days there every year, so for me its a bit of a holiday, but i was shocked at the amount of urine on the floor no where near the toilet areas. I actually witness quite a few dogs peeing up walls and bins in the walkways and actually saw one done standing next to its handler by a breed ring just squat and pee and the owner took no notice. The Nec staff were pretty good at cleaning up, but some areas did smell a bit, particualrly around the giant breed rings and benching.
I'd love to know if these dogs just pee all over their houses, cos i'd be mortified if my dog felt it had to pee in there, but then i wonder if the owners are taking them out enough?

> but then i wonder if the owners are taking them out enough?

If that was the case I wonder if the increased security was making that difficult and I wonder what brought about that need for increased security.  It is certainly not something I was ever concious of in the past years when I have been there and it is certainly something I have a nose for :-)

They wouldn't let me out, as I actually walked in with my trolley.  I parked it at the side and said that I just wanted to let my dogs out for a wee and they said I wasn't allowed, so maybe this was the reason why??  I have to say in the areas that I was in on the Friday and Saturday there wasn't wee everywhere, although Anton did miss getting to the exercise area by about 5 feet for a no 2!

I confess my boy cocked his leg a couple of times where he shouldnt have and I did take him to the exercise area but he refused to pee there.  unfortunately with a long coated breed once they cock their legs you dont want to stop them because they pee all over themselves :(  NEC staff were very quick to clear it up though.

i was in hall 5 on the thursday and i got outside several times through a side door, they stamped my hand and i had no problem passing back and forth.

i would love to see how they would give my breed a working test.
Draught work maybe but how would they test them in water.
< anwers own question, i was forgetting about the huge lake outside >

By the way do you know how HARD my boy tried to go for a early morning swim yesterday.
you gotta love him??????????????????????????????

> < anwers own question, i was forgetting about the huge lake outside >
>
> By the way do you know how HARD my boy tried to go for a early morning swim yesterday.
> you gotta love him??????????????????????????????

We were parked in the East car park for the first time on Saturday so I've never actually seen the lake close up before.  First thing I wondered was how many of you struggled to get past without a swim!! :)

It would have been a great end to the day for some though wouldn't it - did anywoof go in??