I am new to this. I am planning on raising Australian Shepherd dogs and need a few questions answered. First off, I have heard horror stories of dogs dying, losing entire litters, and told this is a normal and common occurance. Is it really that common, and how do I prevent this? What do I need to be sure to do before my bitch is bred? I have a little bitch now and she'll be a year old in April so I am planning on having her bred in late May or early June(assuming she goes into heat of course). I own the male so there wont be any stud fees. Is it impossible to make money when raising dogs? It isnt my main objective but through research and planning I think I will make a little. Is there anything that I MUST make sure to have on hand before whelping? And I have pulled calves, helped horses foal and helped a cat with a stuck kitten once... someone told me helping a bitch whelp is difficult, with my background I assume I am ready for it, what do you all think? I want to be prepared for this and dont want anything to happen if I can prevent it. Thank you all for any advice!

Why not go the whole hog on being a puppy farmer as and mate her on her first season instead of what I guess will be her second? Doing this can save money on feeding her for those extra months as well as the stud fee. If you mate her every six months and keep all the bitch puppies and mate them to your dog as well you could make quite a bit of dosh especially if you don't bother taking them to the vet for anything. Keeping her pregnant and producing lots of puppys will mean she probably won't live very long so you save on the costs of old dogs this way as well. Selling the pups at six weeks also saves on costs. Added bonus is that sepereting them during seasons is not needed. And the pups probably will probably be sickly so will need replacing, if you are nice to folk and sound as if you know what you are doing and care about them they will come back for another one.

Tiabo

Hi,

As a first post to this person that we don't know anything about, this is rather harsh.

They may just be naive, and not thought out the ethics or practicalities involved.

We all bred out first litter at some time.

Some very good breeders and pillars of their breeds started off with the idea of mating little Flossie (some even did) but then learnt better!

They then learnt, perhaps from a Stud dog owner who told them Flossie was only at best Pet Quality, and if they wanted to learn then to join their breed club, attend some shows, purchase a bitch from a good line and show her, and then breed!

Hi there, I used to breed Aussies, lovely dogs. However, I would say leave your bitch until she is three years old ( or very nearly) Before this age they may just be ready physically, but not mentally. You MUST have eyes and hips tested, or you will be shunned by the breed clubs and rightly so. Are you sure your dog and bitch are compatible? I would be very interested to know which line/lines your dogs are from. Also they are not the easiest breed to home WELL, and are certainly not a dog for first time dog owners. Like Border Collies they need to be doing, and have a very intelligent brain kept active. If I can help in any way, please let me know

Phil, to answer your questions. I have had the eyes and hips tested on both and they come out clean. I also live in a very rural area and people are looking for cattle and farm dogs. I already have 12 people waiting on puppies, so I figure at least half will acctually take one. My bitch is of the Las Rocosa blood line, and she is certainly show quality. And my dog is of the Farrs Tuff Guy bloodline. They are both beatiful dogs and great with cattle. I will wait until she is older to breed. I just didnt know, thats why I asked questions. And I am not breeding to make money but because the dogs are very good at their job, loving, and I think they would have beautiful and useful offspring.
QT

You can't hip test until the dog is at least 12 months old - so how can a four month old puppy be tested - you did say she will be 12 month in April - or am I having a senior moment. Ja:(kie

Oh and hip scores are not clear you get a score.

Jackie,
Then I better have a talk with my vet! I asked him to check these things and he came back saying they were both good, and he saw no problems. Maybe its time for me to seek a new vet. I am not trying to pull wool over any eyes, or bulls--t anyone here. I was asking and answering honestly and sincerely. And I know that the hips get scores. Also just so everyone knows I am having these tests done on an annual basis since I've been told it is best. Perhaps I need to go beyond our local vet and find one who has experience with breeding dogs. Thanks for the warning!

You will have to have the eyes tested by a member of the eye testing pannel and the hips are scored by taking x rays of the dog and then the x-rays are sent a specialist pannel for scoring. I am sure you are not trying to pull wool but you are trying to run before you can walk. Take a big breath, accept that you sould not breed this bitch for at least another 2 years, join a A. S. club and start to try and understand the dogs behind your two. You will not be able to understand how to make a good match between a dog and a bitch that takes years but you will beable to talk to the breeder of the bitch and take advice from them and others with experiance in your breed. Sorry if I am repeating what has already been said but I have not yet read the whole thread. Jackie

I am sorry but I do not know what this is about. Why attack me? I said I am new to this and do not know much, I was informed that it was reasonable to breed at a year of age. Maybe it isn't I will have to research that more. I am NOT looking to puppy farm and I am NOT looking to make tons of money. My dogs get EXCELLENT care and are taken to the vet every 6 months for checkups regardless if they are showing any signs of bad health or not. They gat all vacinations, are wormed monthly, and get only the best food (Science Diet). So I will say again, I think your outburst was uncalled for!!!!! I am only trying to get some sound advice and do not deserve this treatment!!! :'(
QT

QT, this is not an attack, just a statment of fact. Until a dog is 12 months old you cannot have it hip tested. That is the rules! For a start the bones have not hardened properly. To be hip scored ex-rays need to be taken and submitted to the KC/BVA pannel for checking. You will then be issued with a score.

Regards, John

Hi I think breeding from your bitch when she is only ayear old is to early she needs to be fully mature and Although I don't have aussie shepherds I would have thought nearer 2 years old would be better and also have you had all the health tests for the breed done on both your dog and bitch .In aussies I believe it is eyes, and hips could be more.As for making money yes it maybe that if everything goes smoothly and according to plan you may make a small profit but and it is abig but that in my humble opinion is not why anyone should breed.Best Wishes Gillian

Losing the bitch and entire litter isn't common, but it does happen and there isn't anything you can do to be 100% sure of preventing it. Caesarian sections and big vet bills for other reasons are common, and again there is only a little you can do to be sure of preventing them. One year old is considered too young in most medium sized breeds, and an immature bitch is far more likely to have problems.

Both parents should be hip scored and eye tested before they are mated. I don't know what other tests Aussies should have, but hopefully Phil or someone else will tell you.

It isn't impossible to make money on a litter of pups (imo), but with the health checks that need to be done and the equipment you need to buy it is much, much more likely that you will lose quite a lot of money on a first litter, even if all goes well.

There are a lot of things you need before mating your bitch, and the first one I'd buy would be 'Book of the Bitch' by by J.M. Evans & Kay White
because it will tell you the rest.

Not sure about kittening, but calving and foaling are totally different to whelping. Many bitches don't need help, but if they do the absolute minimum is enough knowledge to know when to call the vet (Book of the Bitch again).

Before you go any further with this you also need to ask yourself if your male is a suitable mate for your bitch (there are many reasons as to why he may not be), and whether your bitch is suitable for breeding at all. You also need to think about who is going to get the puppies and be prepared to keep the lot if no one wants them and to take back any that have problems in their new home.

You should not be even considering mating her before the age of two, and more like between two and 3 years old.

Unfortunately things can and do go wrong, exactly as in human reproduction. Breeding from your bitch is always a risky business, and especially so if you are inexperienced, as you may not know when to sek help, or realise when things are not going smoothly.

You should not consider becoming a breeder without the support, preferably of you bitches breeder, and other experienced people in your breed. To breed good puppies that will hopefully improve the breed, you need to know the breed standard inside out, and know as much as possible about aqs many dogs in the proposed mating pairs pedigree. you need to balnce faults and virtues, and know where they likely come from.

Pedigrees are not just a piece of paper, for those who are versed in their breed they are a shorthand for the living breathing, moving, working dogs that are listed!

Why are you wanting to breed? Is it just to make a little cash (and it will be a little), do you want a pup to keep yourself, are you genuinely interested in the breed? There are loads of questions for you to ask before you are ready to consider pups (I am trying not be quite so negative as the other respondent, but dont think I dont agree with her!) Are you sure the dog and bitch are compatible, both pedigree wise and physically? Have you researched what hereditary compalints you breed can suffer from, and had applicable health tests done on both animals. Having done all this you also need to check out the availability of pups in this breed, do you already have prospective buyers for all you will not keep, is there a fair chance you wont readily find buyers, and have to keep 'teenage' pups?

And most importantly why on earth do you want to breed from your bitch when she is so young! Please do some more reading up on both breeding and your own breed. 2 is usually the youngest to consider breeding from a bitch, older is quite a lot of breeds.

After having done all this research, you can then think about the small fortune you have to spend on equipment, whelping boxes, heat pads and lamps, vetbedding, puppy pens, forceps, scissors, bottles, thermometers, and all the stuff you will need for weaker pupies. You also need to build up a fair bank balance (even if you dont have to pay a stud fee) becasue the bitch will need lots of extra fisrt class feed from week 6, and throughoutmotherhood, you need high quality feed to wean the pups, and wormers, flea treatment, vaccinations for pups all dont come cheap - and all before even 1 pup is sold! You should also make sure you have £300 - £400 put aside (minimum) for emergency vet. fees for Caesaereans and the like. Sorry if this sounds like a scare story, but there are a whole lot of unwanted dogs out there, and a lot of them are bred by people who think it sounds like a good idea to havejust 1 or 2 litters.

If you care for and rear a litter correctly, you dont have much opportunity to make cash, and quite often you end up with a paper loss. Of course, if you are doing it for the love of the breed, because you have wonderful dogs who can contribute to the advancement or improvement of your breed, to get a fantastic pup to keep yourself with the asssurance that the rest of the litter will get caring permenant homes, these are all good reasons for breding in my book, And yes some of thehorror stories you have h eard are true. It is not all that uncommon to lose a whole litter, or even a large part of it, the bitch may also be lost, or need to be speyed following a C.Section. Think very carefully before going forward with this plan, and please wait until you bitch is much older!
Gwen

I think mating your bitch on her 2nd season is a bit too soon, ive a westie bitch and she has already had 3 seasons and is 18 months old now, I plan to mate her on her next season, I will ask at my local training class to-night as there is someone there who used to own aussies, and I will get some information from him for you. A good start would be to ask some advice from the breeder of your bitch, she can advise you on a stud dog, I know there are not a lot of aussies in the U.K. at the moment, so please be very careful, are you showing your bitch, if not, I would as the further she gets in the showring the better it is for you to breed and also to very good "lines". If anyone breeds it should always be to make better the lines they already have and to chose a stud dog carefully, thats why I suggest that you speak to your bitches breeder.

Right QT I am going to accept first that you are sincere and mean well towards your little bitch . So assuming this , may I go on to advise you . Seeing as you asked .
AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERDS ROUGH COLlIES BORDER COLLIES BEARDED COLLIES ARE ALL SHEPHERDING DOGS .
So lets call them all collies.
Collies are not mature untill two to three yrs old .
To breed from a little collie pup of 12 months old to me is criminal .As mentally a puppy is not wise enough to raise puppies.
They are not fully developed internally which could result on a puppy needing a section .
It can also result in a puppy rejecting her puppies
I saw a 12 month old german shepherd slap her pups off the walls and roll on them and stand on them refuse to feed ,why!! she was a pup as well.
Australian shepherds are a rare enough breed of collie , so If it were my collie I would be looking for a lot more information on the breed before breeding.
I would be thinking more of making a success of my breed then a quick buck .Believe me that is what you wont do if you carry on with your plans make a quick buck .
There is a small margin of profit in breeding a litter . but serious breeders do not do it for the profit all the profit goes back into the dogs .
Serious breeders do it for the love of the breed
The benefit of the breed and the maintaining of the breed.
For to get recognition for their work in the breed .
To be able to look back in the future and say well I helped them to be the wonderful dogs they have become.
I AM HOPING NOW YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR MIND AND HOPEFULY WAITING ANOTHER YEAR BEFORE YOU MATE THE LITTLE PUP.
In the meantime there are tests to be done .
hip scores . eye tests. blood tests . on both dogs Male and female
Have you researched the lines of the two for temperament .
Hopefully they are not brother and sister or closer.
If they are too closely related then any faults will be doubled.
if they are not related then you wil have outcrosses .
Both of those matings are done only when necessary and by experienced breeders .
It is very easy to think all that needs to be done is let your dog mate her wait 63 days and have the puppies and bobs your uncle, Not so . Not so .
I urge you to give this more thought and if you really love your little Aussie then you will have the patience to at least wait untill she is no longer a baby . Mari

Very well said Mari:D

*As a first post to this person that we don't know anything about, this is rather harsh."

Why? Everyone was very nice when they asked about building a long kennel. No little warning bells ringing when asking about breeding and preparing building for breeding before even having a bitch old enough to breed?

Building long kennels, breeding bitches at a year old, stating that they are saving dosh by using own stud dog, and asking about making dosh equal potential puppy farmers to me. I have only been registered on this board for a few days but even after only a few minutes reading there is lots of information for everyone about breeding that explains the recommendations of lots of folk on when to breed and what to do first.

I answered the post as I saw it.

Tiabo

Surely its better to try and educate someone and make them see the errors they could be making than alienate them into doing it regardless jmho.Gillian

Didn't see that QT had posted before, but it doesn't matter Tiablo. As Barbara says, we all had to start somewhere, and as often as not it was in the wrong place. If QT is pressing our buttons and hoping to get a rise, a helpful reply costs nothing; if (s)he is genuinely looking for information, a harsh response isn't likely to be helpful. If I got a nasty reply to a well meaning question, I'd be apt to think that that the person who posted it was a tosser whose opinion wasn't worth listening to and human nature being what it is, it would probably make me less likely to listen to other people too.

Daer all,

I thought the second poster was well off the mark until I read all the posts by the poster and I am afraid I am not convinced about the good intentions at all neither ..Sorry.

The dog in question is only 16 weeks old or 17. A 16-17 week old puppy and you are building kennels all ready. you could only have had the dog at the most 8 weeks and the kennels are getting built. Please don't.

If the posts sounded like there was some experience at all I would say fair enough but this is a complete novice building breeding kennels.

Sorry poster but you are not going down the right track to become a reputable breeder.

Pam :-( Poor puppies

Pam, with this info I would probably agree with you, but I addressed the post in isolation, not remembering seeing a previous one!

Ok, I see where you are all coming from. I am thinking of building a kennel true. I am not building it all at once however. Right now I am only building one section and run for my little bitch, I do NOT want her bred before I say so and I do NOT want her bred by any of the neighbors dogs. I am building the kennel to PROTECT her from this. I live in a rural area and everyones dogs just run free, I dont want any undesireables 'visiting' her in the middle of the day... right now she is being maintained as a house dog. I didnt know that it was a bad idea to breed at only a year, I will now wait until she is at least two and a half if not three. I make sure both my TWO(not puppy farming with dozens here) dogs are in excellent health and condition. They are first and formost companions and they help with our cattle. They are both part of the family! I do not want to do anything to harm them and I am not looking to make a quick buck at their expense. I was just wondering. I have done some research on my dogs bloodlines and what it takes to raise puppies the RIGHT way. I got my bitch on the 17th of June so no, I havent had her long. Questions on building the kennel was just a look into a possible future project. Maybe I should have specified that that is at least 3 years down the line, IF I decide to continue with breeding. I am insulted that you all would think bad of me. I was asking questions in a sincere manner and didnt mean to push any buttons with any of you. I only was seeking a little advice. Sorry that I caused such an uproar and laid question to my intentions. I assure all of you that they are good ones. I am just trying to plan this all out so I know (as best I can) what I am getting into. But I think the personal attacks on me were a little harsh, SHEESH!!! :O

Hi QT,
I would just like to add to the other posts, please think very carefully about using your own dog on a bitch he lives with- I am speaking from personal experience here!!
I mated my Italian Greyhound Norman to my bitch Dolly after careful consideration, as their lines are close but not too close, and they would improve on each other's faults, i.e. Dolly is small with superb movement but could use a bit more elegance, and Norman is a tall boy but very typy and elegant. Both have done well at champ shows.
Dolly had 4 puppies, a dog puppy born dead, and 3 bitches. With a 6.30 am trip to the vet for oxytocin, and dewclaws, and vaccinations, the vets costs were about £260. Out of 3 puppies, one was sold as a pet, and I have kept 2 till 6 months to choose one to show. As it turned out, they are both of definite show quality- and both qualified at their first show. My friend is having the other girl on Sunday- think she'll have to drag her out of my arms- why didn't anyone tell me how heartbreaking it is to part with your 'babies!'
So with selling 2 puppies at £300 each, it looks like I'm left with £340, but when you take off the money for the new living room carpet after the little horrors have peed, pooed and unravelled it, guess it's not that much....
Anyway, I digress..... Dolly is having her first season since having the puppies, and whereas last time he was keen to get to her but not that bad, now he's DONE IT, he is in a dreadful state! He hasn't eaten for 3 days, can't sit still, cries and scratches at his pen all night, and won't give my spayed bitch- or the cat! any peace. Hopefully only a few more days to go before things calm down a bit- she's on day 14 and the worst time seems to be days 9-13 with her.
My Whippet on the other hand, who has never mated a bitch, is still keen to get to Dolly, but at least he can still eat and settle down to sleep.
I must admit, I still don't regret mating my two together, as I am so pleased with my lovely girls, but there have been a lot of posts lately from people wanting to put their dog to stud, and I don't think they realise the effect it will have on him!
Liz

QT I hope my post did not insult you . I intended only to make you rethink your situation with the baby .
I hope you will not breed the little one until she is nearly three.
As any advise given to you from the board would be for a mature bitch not a puppy.
Do you see where I am coming from ? :)
QT it is up to you to make your post clear .
If you write something then the answer will be for what you wrote not what you meant.
If you reread your post you will see why you caused such a response.
I accept you have been misled by people but if you follow the advice from everyone on this board then you could be a responsible breeder and gain respect down the road a bit . :)
May I be blunt now with the best intentions to you .
If you continue with your present plan and people realise you have bred from a baby then you have no chance of making it in the world of dogs and breeding ,
Word spreads fast and if things go wrong its your reputation that will be in shreds not the person or persons that told you to do such a terrible thing .
A Kennels good reputation is built on good foundation stock .
If something is worth doing QT then it is worth doing well or not at all . there are no short cuts .
It is a lifetime commitment .
.
I did not see your other posts but I would not be at all concerned for any one getting Kennels ready in advance with a view to breeding some time . Again it is down to you to make it clear what you mean. :)
I am afraid QT that when you post here to people that will do any thing to protect dogs , you may not always get the answers you were hoping for .
However stick with us and you will find once they know you have the best interests of your animals at heart you will get all the help you seek .

hi, mari,
very well put in all aspects,as you say people only reply to how they think the posts have been writen ,nobody wants to make personal attacks at anyone.where do you start educating people, one inexperienced breeder passes there inexperience on to the next, you only have to read some of the boards to see that. could one of you better read breeders like youself, gwen,brainless
jackie h etc,please the others do not be offended i can't remember all your names put somthing on the boards like to those who are thinking of becoming breeders and those of you who think you have stud dogs give general info like starting with there breeder first,etc or is there no point and should i shut up waffeling, perhaps you can all get together and write a book. regards tina

I have a couple of links, one is to one of the American KC WEB pages. They have articles that cover a lot of these questions here is one:
http://www.akc.org/breederedu/responsible_breeding.cfm
and this one is also american but not AKC http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeding.html I have forgotten to put these up recently, but have them saved in favourites. I then Open a new browser page, copy the address using edit, and then paste it here!

QT,

I think we will all be pleased that you see where we are coming form . everyone has both you and the puppies best intentions behind any comments.

Pam :-)

Is QT based in the UK or the USA? Are hip-scoring regulations different in the States?

I was starting to wonder that too. If it is USA the Orthopaedic foundation for animals won't grade hips until 2 years of age. Though they will give a preliminary grade at a year, which has to be redone at two. I think their CERF scheme for eyes is similsr to ours, having eye specialists to do the evaluating.

I think PenHip do it earlier than two years

Christine

Sorry I hadn't noticed any previous post from this person!

Hello Q.T
Dont panic! :)
After reading what everyone has said to you. It would seem harsh
if you are new to the site, which you are.
I would agree with most things people have posted here. But
I dont altogether agree with how it has come across. You must
bear in mind that written word can sometimes seem different
to the verbal.
Please dont breed your bitch until after two.
My vet told me that a bitch has its first season, then the second
to regulate itself and the third it can maybe have a litter. Yet some
breeds have more seasons than others, so you have to bear this in
mind. Also he told me that pups can be born with defects if the
bitch is too young. But apart from that the bitch mentally can not
cope with a litter to young. It would ruin her mentally. So wait.
She has to have her hip score tests and any other tests, and this
can not be done until after twelve months. It is said that 12-18
months is the time for a bitch to be scored. I am currently about
to have one of mine done but she come into season. With helpful
advice from others on this board I am waiting for a couple of months
before I go ahead. (The seasons can effect the result)
You say she is certainly show quality. Why is
it so many people think their dogs are show quality? Because they
love them to death, thats why. However in reality she may not
be show quality. To have proven herself she would of been shown.
Dont be put off by this site, please. It was rather brave of you to
post your question when I am sure if you had read other postings you
could see how strongly we all feel about our different breeds.
If we can be of any help to you please contact the site again.
You will get lots of helpful advice, I know that I have.
So dont be put off.
Nutkin

Hi Everyone

I contacted QT privately as I kinda guessed from the posts that QT wasn't in the UK , QT is actually in the US .

It is quite common practice out in the US especially in the Mid-West farming areas that aussies are only cerf'd and their hips checked by a vet and given the all clear before breeding no OFA grading given , it isn't too far back that ALL aussies were cleared and bred in this way, so maybe QT has been advised by the breeder of the bitch in question that this is all that needs to be done.

I am please that QT posted to this list and asked what people thought as now QT has been given some advice and made some new contacts to hopefully help and guide QT.

I have written to QT about the basics behind breeding the bitch in question and what I feel as a fellow aussie breeder to be the right age to be bred from , and the things we should be looking out for.

I know alarm bells start sounding , mine did too from the original post , but then I gave QT the benefit of the doubt and thought instead of getting angry with QT , lets ask questions first before we shoot QT down in flames...

Hopefully then we can give valuable advice and make a difference and educate people.

JMHO

Well said Applethorn! :)

Education not Alienation, agree with you Applethorne:D

Hey Quinn

Email me as I have lost your address , I saw some of Peppers kids at my last show ! Promising !

What are you thinking of breeding from a bitch under 2 years ????
Is she hip scored...is the stud ???? do they need hip scoring ??? I think you should have a re think for at least a year and get some professional information on the breed before you plough ahead.

Hi Newbie Breeder,

Here's my opinion hope you don't object. I have had Cavaliers for 20 years and have bred just ten litters. I would never breed from a bitch before she was eighteen months old or on her third season. Years ago we used to breed at the 2nd season and never had as many problems with bitches needing ceasers or reabsorbing but then the bitches were still babies themselves and it always seemed unfair. So now the Cavalier club suggests that we wait until they are at least two years old and we are recommended to use older stud dogs with clear hearts and eyes.

Unless you are breeding 'big time' i.e. big kennel and lots of bitches as well as your own stud dogs, you are unlikely to make vast profits. As I said we have ten litters and perhaps we are just breaking even. My best friend is the perfect example for 'things that can and do go wrong'. Her first bitch was bought on terms (2 puppies to go back and she had to pay the stud fee), the bitch was mated and produced 3 puppies one of which needs lifetime attention for a brain malfunction and two of which went back to the breeder. Next up four puppies - one died and one needed surgery for slipping patellas. Next - a different bitch and three healthy puppies after a section - great until the eyes opened and needed expensive surgery for a skin fold which was attached to the eye.

Please think carefully and only breed to improve your own stock or the breed in general NOT for a puppy market.

perhaps it would help if future posters said which country they are in,or if the board could automatically let everyone know which country posters were from
teters

can't see the connection with answer to this thread????

connection is
tests are done at diffrent times and various ages is different countries so advice could be given accordingly (see above questions and replys given)
teters