I have just had hours of fun looking up dogs I know personally in different breeds(little things-little minds).

I'm now wondering though is it such a good idea that anyone can look up any dog and make a snap decision without speaking to the owner/breeder. For example my pup was involved in a RTA at 10 weeks,because of this I am expecting his hip scores to be high. I would still use him at stud if his siblings all had decent hip scores. His lines are not common in this country-he was pick dog and I waited quite a while for him. To exclude him from my breeding plans just because of a RTA would be such a waste.
So in the future anyone could look up my dog see his hip scores and point fingers without knowing the facts.
I wonder is this fair?

Appreciate your comments on this.

Barbara

In the grand scheme of things, it's very unlikely that many dogs will have detrimental health scores due to RTAs but as a breeding tool it may be invaluable.
That is if some more useful test results are included and not just the existing KC/ BVA ones.
CKCS have a pressing need for Heart certification to be added for all to see but at present only eyes are included and very few Cavs these days suffer from inherited eye disease.

When, and if, Joe Public are educated to look up more meaningful results it may reduce the number of breeders being taken seriously, when they  state ' vet checked'.
Now the ABS needs to be revised to insist that advertised litters give a direct link to the 'actual scores' of the parents of a litter not just implying that they are tested..scores unknown.

I am in the same situation as you(I think).
As you know,my girl was in an accident so when she gets the hips done, I'm not expecting perfect result to come back.
Her pelvic area is wonky so I assume this would affect the result (I have not yet called to find out as I will not be getting her scored yet).

I think it is good for people to be able to see the results as they can then check the official results themselves :).
I mean they can go and see your boys relations have good hips(hopefully)even though his might not be perfect, does it matter they do not know why his hips are not great, you know why it is...
Let them point their fingers and the ones who ask will get an answer :).

In Finland we have been able to see every single dogs details from show results to hips, elbows, every eye test etc.
Click of a button you can see the results of all offspring and siblings.
I think it is great and very valuable tool when researching different lines and also results different breeders have etc!

I spent a happy couple of hours researching results for our lad's forebears, and it is really gratifying that in our breed (WSS) hip scores, gonioscopy etc are taken seriously by everyone. I think it's the best thing the KC offer. Is there a way that the BVA could note where a high score is linked to a significant accident?

I'm now wondering though is it such a good idea that anyone can look up any dog and make a snap decision without speaking to the owner/breeder. For example my pup was involved in a RTA at 10 weeks,because of this I am expecting his hip scores to be high. I would still use him at stud if his siblings all had decent hip scores.

But in that case, why bother scoring at all? Surely by scoring him and ignoring the result and saying it is because of an accident, you leave the way open for less genuine people with dogs with bad scores blaming it on accidents? Why not just x-ray and then decide after you've seen the plates whether to send them off or not.

This is all in the public domain anyway.  The only difference is it is now on line and perhaps more accessable.
As far as accidental damage goes, all you can say with certainty is an accident has happened.  You cannot really know what the score would have been otherwise.

Hi MarianneB

so are you saying if his scores come back high I should exclude him from my breeding plans? If thats the case then should the whole litter be excluded as I was under the impression that you check siblings and parents when researching hips. So my lad's high hips would reflect badly on the rest of the litter?

IMO breeding from a dog not scored( not sending plates off) is ''perceived to be''just as bad as showing high scores.

Barbara

Hi All, thanks for your replies

we also have an on line studbook which is updated regularily with health data as and when published by the KC. It has been invaluable for all in our breed as a research tool. But now the KC are publishing details on their site I feel it may be a bit too public- any one from any breed can see the results without any trouble. I am a prime suspect-just having spent hours looking up dogs from different breeds just because I know them from shows..I have a sad life :-))))), not that I found anything out of the ordinary but sometimes as is the way of the world mud sticks.

mebbe I'm just being paranoid

Barbara

> Barbara

I'm a great believer in the 'wait and see - cross that bridge when you come to it' school of decision making.
Early days ...early days.

Noora

I've pm'd you
Bx

toolz

yeah knowing my luck he'l fail his eye test so there'l be no need lol

Barbara
x

I'd like to see the health results more like the pedigrees that you can look up on the Finnish KC site. 

You click on the individuals in the pedigree to see their data and that of their offspring, and the mates.

Gives you inbreeding coefficients etc.

Here is their main page http://www.kennelliitto.fi/EN/etusivu.htm

and you can click on the breeding database on the right.

Here is the link for the dog I used as an example: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FIN32947/02&R=242

You can select to see results in English.

that would be much better, even a link to the rest of the litter is a start.  But I suppose if they're going to do it they have to start somewhere

Barbara

my dog had an accident when a tiny pup. He got a green stick fracture, which was not picked up on. That is until he had his hips scored. It was the vet who x-rayed him that picked up the damage on his hip, when it went to the BVA to be scored they spotted the same area of damage and agreed with the vet it was accidental damage, and recorded it as such in their files although his hip score does not reflect any allowances for the damage done to him. So he has one hip scoring 3 and the other scored 8.

Regardless of how bad the hips looked I still send the plates in for scoring, otherwise it gives a totally false breed average.

so if they recorded the accidental damage on their files could they not indicate the same on line?

Barbara

Can I say something about this it also shows eye testing as well which is good you would like to think!

However my adult schnauzer has been eye tested 3 times results have apeared in KC breed records supplements you look it up on the KC website shows as none being done ditto her litter!

I think they are going to do it then it should show every bit of information.

It will show everything eventually given all the data that has to be transferred to the database it will not be a quick job. I checked when as one of Echo's daughters is on the health test results(& she would be nearly 30 years old now if she was still alive)but Echo was not on the database. They are doing a two tier download, the most latest tests are being transferred alongside the older records so that eventually all dogs ever registered by the KC will be on the database

Well she was eye tested the end of last year so I would have thought that would have showed up?

Nordic countries have had this kind of databases running for years...
Very valuable tools when researching lines and health results.
I have had many fun hours navigating databases in languages I don't speak!
By the way, I don't think on the finnish KC pages the english button is working at the moment.
They are doing some updates and last time I checked it was just in finnish...

The score was still pretty good with one side only being 8 after an injury.

Yes that has been the case for a while, I thought it was just my computer setting that the buttons were not aligned right (I sue larger fonts etc which can skew things on sites).

Hi MarianneB

so are you saying if his scores come back high I should exclude him from my breeding plans?

No, I asked why bother with the scoring if you're not going to go on the result anyway. I said that why not do the x-rays but if they look bad not send them off as in this instance you will know WHY -rather than give people the impression you are breeding from a dog with HD.

Is your breed actually on a schedule for eye problems though.  Both of my breeds do occasionally throw up eye problems which are being tested for by breeders in the UK and abroad, unfortunately, as we are not on any of the BVA/KC schedules they don't actually record or publish the eye results.

Yes its Miniature Schnauzers they are recognised as having eye problems and you have to have your bitch or dog eye tested if you are a member of the breed club before you mate them.  And it is also recorded on the registration documents that the parents are eye tested.

Hi can you please post a link to this, probably being a plonker but can't find it.
Thanks

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/health/search/

Hi MarianneB
thanks I wasnt sure which way to read your reply.......but as I said previously using a dog with no published hip scores is perceived to be just as bad as high hips...would be slated either way....
at least 50% of show people (in my breed)would know why the results didnt look good and I suppose the other 50% could find out. BUT people from other breeds -you could imagine them pointing and tut tutting..heres my paranoia setting in again :-0

Barbara

The Kennel Club have said they will not record on their health website any dog who uses any other health scheme other than the BVA schemes. So if your dog was eye tested at the AHT and you were given an AHT certificate or if it was eye tested using the EVCO certificate then the results would not be publicised on the KC health data base.

I think it's brilliant.  My Spanish bred boy has a bad BVA hipscore over here but I was able to look abroad and see what his children, grandchildren etc. were scoring.  Only one dog is slightly over the breed average and the rest are all below, his grandson over here has the joint lowest score in the country.  I have a grand daughter of his here so will be waiting with baited breath when I get her x-rayed in 2 months time.

i had to ring the kc about the health tests, when i put my girls names in nothing showed up.
they told me that if you have test's done that are not asked for it dose not go on.

Shame when we have them done and kc can't be bothered to keep a record.

The purpose of getting a dog hip scored is to enable you to make an informed decision as to whether to use the dog or breed from the female.After looking at the breed average you may decide to use a dog with a 14 hip score if the breed average was 12, however I personally would not breed from a dog or a female with a high hip score no matter the reason. Because other pups from the litter have a low score does not really give you a base to make a judgement.

I fail to understand the comment "it may be TOO public" how can anything be too public.  Transparency is something that is welcomed by reputable breeders; only those who have something to hide should be afraid of the truth!

It is an invaluable aid to those who cannot afford to keep buying breed supplements and it verifies what some people claim.

I find it very odd that anyone has a problem with an educational tool

> i had to ring the kc about the health tests, when i put my girls names in nothing showed up.
> they told me that if you have test's done that are not asked for it dose not go on.
>
> Shame when we have them done and kc can't be bothered to keep a record.

Depends what tests you had done, all hip & elbow scores are recorded & also all eye & heart clinical & DNA tests for breeds that have known conditions are also recorded. If the breed doesn't have a known eye condition then the BVA will record it for their database but currently the KC do not. You still have the actual certificate as proof of the tests results

To add to above. Just had a look at some of my Beardies on the database & their eye test results are recorded, but not their hip scores-obviously a work in progress!

yes still hace them, but dose not stop the nasties in my breed saying not done or false.

it would be nice if they where recorded.
i am now looking into looking having hips done as well, not asked for either but i believe its starting to creep in.

Beardies have no requirement for eye tests yet the KC has the results for mine !

I would e mail the KC via their website & ask them if you can have the BVA health test recorded on the certificates & they should add them for you on receipt of your health test certs & the reg cert

thanks Moonmaiden will contact them on monday and see what they say.