[url=]http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Cat-Piercing-US-Woman-Defends-Business-Saying-Animals-Were-Well-Looked-After-And-Happy/Article/200901415208993?lpos=World_News_Third_Strange_News__Article_Teaser_Region__1&lid=ARTICLE_15208993_Cat_Piercing%3A_US_Woman_Defends_Business_Saying_Animals_Were_Well_Looked_After_And_Happy___ [/url]

what kind of weirdo would think this was ok?  I am glad to see she was charged but what on earth posessed her to do it.  there is nowt queerer than fowk as the saying goes...

That is horrible!  There is no reason, on earth, for this to be done.  She should have her name ruined, and her business ruined, as she now complains about. 

Horrible and I am sure would not be allowed in the UK either but then for some inexplicable reason we allow babies to have their ears pierced

good im glad shes ruined.
silly woman, how dare she treat an animal in this way.

Dreadful!

And one kitten was docked?  She deserves to be ruined - and then some.

What was it someone said...never doubt the ability for someone to be truly stupid! I think we should go round and pierce all her bits and see how she feels about it! Idiot woman, she deserves to lose her business...heaven knows what she thinks is alright to do to the dogs she grooms!!

Does this woman not realise that the difference between animals and humans is that we have a choice and can say no? What on earth would an animal benefit from this type of treatment, regardless of whether it is loved or well fed? Obviously money is the only reward along with attention!

> Horrible and I am sure would not be allowed in the UK either but then for some inexplicable reason we allow babies to have their ears pierced <

Totally agree on both counts Isabel, this story is vile but I have often thought that piercings should only be legal if the individual being pierced can give their own informed consent.  I find seeing a baby with pierced ears similarly unpleasant.

Not a lot of difference between this and people who breed crossbreeds with no health checks, no knowledge of whether the cross will be "good" or a disaster from a structural standpoint, etc.  This one seems more horrific, but IMO it is not.

Glad to see her reputation is ruined. 

I'm speechless.....! :(

Speechless with regard to what I said?  The problems irresponsible cross-breeding creates cause needless pain and suffering to the unfortunate dogs born.  The stream of "cute" toy crossbreeds with eye problems now going to my vet (he is an eye specialist) for corrective surgery is endless.   I know of several people who have purchased crossbreeds of giant breeds which end up with major structural problems because the angulation meant for one of the breeds ends up trying to support the body of the other breed in the cross - meaning ligament problems and corrective surgery as well following injury.

Someone who pierces a dog and then tries to market them for more money to other nutters - how is that any different from the above from the dog's standpoint?

Speechless with regards to all the horrible and unecessary suffering brought onto dogs and other animals by IMO wierd and thoughtless people Cairnmania! But I was actually following the thread and was speechless as to the picture of piercings!

> And one kitten was docked?

In the US, some Manx cat breeders dock their kittens so that's not so uncommon.    But then they also de-claw too in the US which is a horrible procedure.  Likewise de-bark, crop ears............

In my family ears have been pierced as babies you are entitiled to your opinion we do not find it unpleasant it is tradition in the Indian race as well, and as my family is now multicultural I find your comment misplaced. Mine were done as a baby so was my niece, her daughters, I had sons, if I had a daughter I would have had her ears pierced. I find tail docking barbaric but a lot of people on here do not, each to their own traditions and practices.

I presume you are referring to my comment.  I do not just find it unpleasant, I have no objections to the look of it, I think it is cruel and cannot see it serving any function as tail docking can with working breeds, or benefit from being done so very young.  Any adult or even older child is free to choose to have it done as I did myself at 14.  This is my personal opinion and I don't see why that should be misplaced on the grounds of culture.  Some cultures embrase such things as female circumcision but I am not going to stop considering that barbaric as I am sure you do.

No live and let live in your eyes then so my family and I are misplaced and their culture should not be respected - right. I'll take it your moral stance needs to be aired then as you did bring the subject up, not me.

Re docking tails collies arent docked neither are any spaniels now and I cant see vets standing in line complaining at how many undocked working dogs they are seeing - I could be wrong mind you.

Re female circumsion - barbaric, but I do not consider ear piercing in that way you are entitled to your opinion and I mine, so lets agree to differ.

Respecting peoples culture is very important but it has to be limited within the context of acceptable practices.

> neither are any spaniels now

Yes, they are.

> Re female circumsion - barbaric, but I do not consider ear piercing in that way

I agree it is not to the same extreme but still equally unnecessary.  It is also something that can easily be done in later life.

Spaniels are not docked at birth, unless you can prove they are working even then it is not accepted practice and they cannot be shown.

You are way off beam critising anyones culture you are not in a position to jude what is acceptable or not. Neither are you in a position to judge what is necessary or not, that is up to the individual choice.
To change that right leads along a very slippery slope. You are not the judge of what is necessary or what is not.
You do have the right to give an opinion so do I but i would not presume to tell you  " but it has to be limited within the context of acceptable practices" who do you think you are? who set you up as a paragon of acceptable practices???? thank god you arent in government or you would probably have me and mine strung up!!

> You are way off beam critising anyones culture

So you think we should just accept female circumcision, the throwing of animals out of towers at religious festivals, dancing bear etc, etc, on the basis that culture is sacrosanct?

> You are not the judge of what is necessary or what is not.

No, I am not but as you keep saying I am entitled to my opinion.
I don't know about stringing people up and see no need to blaspheme about it but I would like to see the Government one day ban piercing without competent consent.

Um sure of the moral ground are you well i think youre wrong.

You are way of line critising anyones culture - if you were educated enough you would realise a lot of what you state are religious practices not cultural (there is a difference).

The government will never interfere in piercings because a few bigoted people find others "ways" against their sensibilities.

And yes I do mean you are bigot - which means obstinate and intolerant of a creed or view - look it up! thats trying to push your opinion on others.

> You are way of line critising anyones culture

So you would agree with the other practices I have mentioned?

>you would realise a lot of what you state are religious practices not cultural (there is a difference).

I believe they are both in many instances.

Culture - manners & understanding & taste of a race. Religious practices are different Sutee was religious so is female circumsion is a religious rite of the cutting off of the foreskin or clitoris as I said if you were better educated you would not make such sweeping statements.

I bow to your greater understanding :-) although I am not sure I agree.  Suttee was both religious and cultural.  The evidence being, it is not longer practiced but people are still Hindu.  Why is it no longer practices?  Because despite being religious and cultural people challanged it as not aacceptable.  And this was something done by competent consent!
So you think these practices I have mentioned are to be tolerated?

Actually you have lost the arguement Hinduism abolished Suttee but it was a religious practice not a cultural one, the other members of the Indian CULTURE did not advocate suttee.

I can see no reason why my families cultural views are to be challanged by your bigotted opinion.

But as you are so aware of the other barbaric practrices and are able to state that they fall into the realm of being equal to ear piercing no doubt you can enlighten me as to what type of government control you expect to be implemented - stoning, throwing my dogs off a tall tower, burning at the stake or was that cultural problem as well?  (remember Joan or Arc was handed over to the english to burn as a heretic!) whichcraft didnt stick with the french authorities

For what it's worth I also find the practice of piercing babies ears unacceptable IMO.
I think everyone has a right to do what they wish to their own bodies..When They Are Old Enough to Choose! I think to inflict personal beliefs on a baby morally wrong, like having babies christened, not a thing I would do unless the baby was alowed to grow up and choose for itself. If we all gave each other the right to make our own choices in life when we were at an age to do so maybe we would all be more tollerant of different cultures. I have no objection to female curcumsision if the female in question had made her own mind up whether or ot to do it. Likewise any other cultural belief.
I find the kitten piercing dispicable, once more a case of inflicting human wishes on an innocent animal for the pleasure of a human! Animals should be protected from pain and suffering not used as a human possesion to be humiliated and tortured in the many ways different people use them.
Aileen

>Hinduism abolished Suttee but it was a religious practice not a cultural one

No, it was a cultural choice as they remained Hindu despite no longer practicing it.  It does not have to be the culture of every other religion in India to say it was the culture of those Hindus at that paticular time. 
I think I have already said I do not consider piercing babies to be as extreme as some of these practices although with things like dancing bears I would say it comes close.

> no doubt you can enlighten me as to what type of government control you expect to be implemented - stoning, throwing my dogs off a tall tower, burning at the stake or was that cultural problem as well?

Just banning would do :-)
It seems extraordinary that it is still tolerated to me.  If you stuck something sharp into a baby in other circumstances than this I think social services would probably whisk it away.

> like having babies christened

I don't think that is comparable at all. I can't see any justification for preventing people bringing up children within their religion.  The baby will suffer no physical harm and can choose to reject his church when old enough to do so. 

Not if the family was Indian they would not or jewish circumsing their son's. Social Services would have the sense not to do that.

Its a cultural choice, let it be.

Gosh Isabel get you and me on the same side and we would sort out this world !! I like to see ears pierced, I had no choice with my own but I did add another set at 16. Katie has had her two daughters done her family is Indian and it is what they do. No idea why but its no worse than having kids injected for MMR, or whatever they do now a days. Its a choice!! do not seek to take away choice we have little of that left nowadays. My last word on the subject this is getting boring for other members of CD, who proably couldnt care less.

Indian culture did not support suttee you did not find Sikh's practising Suttee only the HINDU thats a type of religion they were all Indians but different religious practices. I dont think any muslims practices Suttee either but I would have to research that.

Whistler

some people don't believe it appropriate for babies/infants to have piercings - nothing to do with culture, more that the child has no choice and, TBH, on top of that I personally think it looks awful so wouldn't have done it to my daughter.  When she was 12 she chose to have her ears pierced for going to secondary school and that was fine by me (although she was restricted to ONE piercing per ear!)

As far as I'm concerned it's a matter of opinion re personal views on the child's rights and a matter of taste re appearance.

Please don't make this personal or take it personally :)

Merlot

My thoughts entirely

> I like to see ears pierced

So do I.  The quality of earing you can use is also generally far nicer too :-).

> No idea why but its no worse than having kids injected for MMR

Because there is sound justification for it ie to prevent disease.  You can also put forward a reasonable arguement for male circumcision especially in the hot countries where it is generally practiced.  What reasonable arguement can you put forward for piercing babies?

> Indian culture did not support suttee

No, I think I made that point :-)  It was the cultural custom of the Hindus at that time.

I agree but to seek to influence any one to ban what is a personla choice is not acceptable.
I am not Indian but my Great Niece and her family are, its their culture and should remain their personal choice. Thats what it is all about personal choice one should not dictate one's personal choice on another culture - agreed?

>I agree but to seek to influence any one to ban what is a personla choice is not acceptable.

Through out history people have campaigned for changes in culture where welfare has been an issue.  I would not dream of interfering in peoples culture where no harm was being done.

> agreed?

No :-) 

> I agree but to seek to influence any one to ban what is a personla choice is not acceptable.

Bit of a grey area - depends on what the choices actually are :-p

> one should not dictate one's personal choice on another culture - agreed?

When in Rome ...... :-D

Going back to the subject of the cat piercing! LOL its dispicable is that, how on earth can she justify that at all, i am glad she is ruined!! That nearly made me speechless actually, poor thing, what if they got caught on something and ripped out! Poor kitty!

Im British can trace my family back to coming over in 1066 my family have pierced ears since ever. Im not in Rome I am in my own country here, and Im also not coloured I am white.
My family has married into other races and I have coloured nieces and nephews and now married into the Indian race. They were born in UK as well - my great niece is aware she is of mixed race and says she is English not Indian, but we tell her she is special to be a part of both worlds (Aniesha is 5). Not all people white or coloured would be in total agreement with your comments. Choice is choice and I do not seek to prevent you having a choice why should you limit my choices? we are talking ear piercing here not female circumsion by the way.

Agreed they could get caught up and cause damage to the poor cat.

> why should you limit my choices?

I would not seek to do so on any other grounds than welfare. Like you I think diversity is most welcome.

Your race, creed, gender, s@xual persuasion, income, inside leg measurement carries no interest or impact on me - let's just clear that one up ;)

I happen to believe that in the Western world - regardless of the differences in (see above) that rights of people should be protected and that to me includes children not being subjected to a cosmetic procedure :)  As it happens I would like to see the practice stopped but I'm not so intensely enraged by the subject that I'd go weilding a banner outside every maternity hospital, creche, nursery or local MPs home :)

I personally disapprove of it on various levels and if anything I find it marginally less unacceptable in children born of families from an ethnic family/ background (and many Italian children also appear to have pierced ears too) but I still don't like it and happen to think that on children born of fairer skin tones it looks *particularly* tacky

I'm really struggling to ensure this remains entirely PC  - race cards need not and should not be played!

What exactly does "when in Rome mean then............" it usually means when in Rome do as the Romans do. I am not in Rome I am not a foreigner, Im British. You are the one making the quote or did you not know the next part of it? I am part of the Western world go into any art gallery and look at many pictures and you will see children with pieced ears and they arent all darker skinned.

I could not care less if you think children of a ethnic parentage look better than fairer children you are saying dont do this "I" dont like it, well I do. You have not cleared anything up by saying children born of a faired skin!!!!  do you mean its partially ok on darker children but not so good on white ones (or what do you mean by fairer skined exactly).

So whats that then if it isnt a racist remark!

>What exactly does "when in Rome mean then............" it usually means when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Exactly right. The same meaning as "When in Malaya do as the Malays do" or "When in Australia do as the Australians do" or "When in Britain do as the British do".

> do you mean its partially ok on darker children but not so good on white ones

No - I don't actually think it's OK for either - I merely think it looks less tacky on children of ethnic minority groups possibly because it is more regularly seen and also because deep down I think most of us accept, although not necessarily approve, of the fact that different cultures view things differently.

You said 'one should not dictate one's culture or creed' - I disagree.  There are and should be exceptions.  I happen to support the notion that our Government in our country (regardless of skin tone FTR) should include the protection of children from cosmetic procedures in law.

The 'when in Rome' phrase was to emphasise that I care not whether this is a cultural preference or not - it is not in any child's interests :)

As with anything in life that are we not all saying 'I do/not' like it?  So, given the opportunity for a vote/ballot on this topic (and many others) I would give my opinion - expressed in the terms you seem to find irrelevant - of 'I don't like it'

Its not cosmetic its a cultural choice. Its not your Government either its my Government and my country and I do not accept your view of "tacky".

Lets leave it there then.
But the saying (when in Rome) means when in a different country do as they do and I was under the impression we are all in the same country and since our government by adopting a law that seeks to make us all the same. We arent in a position to make a stand against any cultural differences which takes us back to the government not be able to stop pierced ears. And I think it looks cute!

> Its not cosmetic its a cultural choice.

It's still for cosmetic reasons within a culture :)

I also think the new trend for guys wearing fake diamond studs is really tacky too - David Beckham just got away with it - but the Framnk Skinner look alikes not a good look (whoops, off for caffeine, here come the gingerists ;) )

WoW, what an interesting thread

> We arent in a position to make a stand against any cultural differences

I would agree with that, infact would not wish to, except where welfare issues arise.

>our government by adopting a law that seeks to make us all the same.

Relax :-), I don't think our present Government would ever consider such a thing.

Since I had used the word 'unpleasant' with regard to piercing of babies and toddlers, I must clarify - it is on the grounds that they are too young to give consent. I don't think it is comparable to childhood immunisations as these are in the interests of the child's health but piercings clearly are not. I essentially am in agreement with Merlot that it is about individuals making their own informed choices, nothing to do with cultural practices but to do with the rights of the individual child - by carrying this out on the very young their freedom of choice is removed.    

Sitting on the fence here but I think it comes down to what people do with their own children is up to them. You cant tell someone how to be a parent because we all have our own views and there is no book around telling you what rules to follow so people do things how they want.
Whether you agree with baby ear piercing or not, it is up to the individual - they are after the parent  and guardian so do what they think is best.

> Sitting on the fence here but I think .............. (etc)

Ouch - obviously fell off then.  Hope it wasn't a high one :-D