Advice welcomed...

I've been contacted just recently by a lady I recently sold an 8 month old puppy to.  She had only had her a couple of weeks and sadly has been told by her vet she has a grade 4-5 heart murmur, which my vet had not picked up on strangely when she had her puppy jabs.  I have offered a full refund and to take back the puppy but she would like to keep her.  My question is thus, of breeders on here, would you give a full refund if she is keeping the puppy bearing in mind the vaccination costs etc or forget it and just give the full refund?  I would, of course, not think twice if the puppy was an 8 week old puppy, pre-jabs.  Also, does anyone have any experience of what sort of quality of life can be expected for this puppy?  I have never had any experience of it before.

Also, the lady is thinking of taking her to a specialist on her vets recommendation and says this will be very expensive. What sort of figure is it usually to see a specialist for an accurate diagnosis?  Also I'm wondering if it perhaps should wait until the puppy is mature before being checked again by her own vet and then if the situation is still the same, then going to the specialist???  Or is this fairly cut and dry?

Thanks Jo

Edited to say, I have actually now spoken to the lady's vet whom has told me the figure to see the specialist is around the 500 mark, is this usual?  I am based near Cambridge and this specialist is London so I guess that's why... is there a cheaper option??

In my opinion if you have offered to take puppy back i wouldnt be giving her a refund. i always advise to insure the puppies i sell in case of medical expenses, and this as being a dog owner is something we should always account for. If the puppy was given an all clear by your own vet i would be asking my own vet why it had not been picked up on and possibly reconsider the vet your using.
You have offered to take the puppy back and that what most breeders would do and give a refund if they had the puppy back but they have chosen to keep the puppy knowing full well the cost implications.

> My question is thus, of breeders on here, would you give a full refund if she is keeping the puppy bearing in mind the vaccination costs etc or forget it and just give the full refund? 

I think it depends on a few factors.  Is heart screening of breeding animals recommended in your breed and was it carried out with satisfactory results?  I don't see why you would refund them for vaccinations if it was you that paid for them or did you make a specific charge for that when you sold them the puppy?
There are a couple of threads running at the moment that you may find interesting.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1015344;hl=#pid1015344
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1018390;hl=#pid1018390

Thank you for your replies.  No heart screening is not something that's recommended/required in either of my breeds so parents aren't tested (That's not to say the breed perhaps shouldn't be now.  It's just the first I and fellow breeders have ever heard of it).  There was no specific extra charge for for the jabs, I just told her that she was vaccinated as a puppy.  I'm happy to refund most of the cost but just think that maybe a little back to cover a bit of the cost of rearing and jabs would be okay since she is keeping her and would be getting most of the money back?  I am now thinking that perhaps with a little help here a cheaper specialist could be found.

With all this in mind, can anyone advise me of canine cardiologists they would recommend to have an accurate diagnosis of a heart condition done?  Within reach of Essex/Suffolk/North of London... thanks, Jo

I would have to give a full refund whayever...if she is keeping pup and bearing the cost of treatment etc...then she has a choice, either she keeps the puppy with refund or she gives the pup back for a full refund...I don't think she can expect you to bear all the costs of the treatment if she is keeping pup? Maybe I have misunderstood something? All the best, Dawn

Yes, but the all clear had been given some months ago...if the pup had a Vet check immediately before being sold then I think that would be different? Some breeds develop heart problems up to 2 years later, like Newfies, can't always guarantee full health from month to month, especially with something like DCM.

sorry i didnt read it properly thought she had a vet check before she left.
i still wouldnt refund if the puppy wasnt coming back to me though.

Well, maybe it's just me then...because if someone was willing to take responsibility for a Puppy I had bred, that ended up with a major health problem I would be mortified and thankful it wasn't going to cost me an arm and a leg, or be left coping with a morbidity issue at the end of the day! I think the only decent and proper thing to do is give them their money back!

Hi Dawn, no she is not expecting me to bear any costs of treatment as I have offered to take the pup back for a full refund.  I was just trying to find out more about getting a specialist to see her for cheaper than she'd been quoted as I have no idea how much it normally costs (the quote she'd been given was expensive even in the eyes of the vet who gave it to her!).  My earlier query was whether it would be wrong of me to keep back a minimal figure from the original payment instead of a 100% refund to cover a bit of the rearing/vaccination cost as she is keeping the puppy.  If she was giving her back, I would, of course, not think twice about a 100% refund. ATB, Jo

well we all do things differently, but i do advise all my puppy owners to take insurance as things can always crop up.
i had a puppy not long ago that was vet checked and went off to his new home then months later developed to cherry eyes i offered to take pup back and they did not want to let him go.
had i have not had him vet checked then as a responsible owner i would offer the money, but in my case cherry eye is not something you can predict

Well, the cardiologists I know are in Liverpool and Glasgow! So not much help...although I did have Storm echo-dopplered at Liverpool it cost around £250 ish that was about 3-4 years ago(me memory is going!) A basic clear certificate for a sounding is around £60-£80(again Cassie was don around 1999-2000 in Scotty Land)...Maybe you could phone someone at the Newfie club to see if they have a list of Cardiologists?  http://www.thenewfoundlandclub.co.uk/ they have a contact list on the site...best of luck, but yes I do think that sounds way too expensive!

I forgot to say...I believe only a registered Cardiologist can 'grade' a murmur! :-)

How long ago is recently? I.e. when did you sell the pup. If it wasn't long ago personally I would refund and let them keep the pup, or let them keep it and offer a free pup from the next litter. If it was several months ago and nothing you could have known about, then I would not refund, but I would still offer a free pup from the next litter. The reason for this is I have (in cats, not in dogs) had people try to get money out of me by saying their cat has a problem, months later -and it has turned out at times to be a lie. Have you asked their vet to speak to your vet? That would be my first reaction, so that I could get all the facts. That way your vet could also confirm he or she found no murmur when they examined the pup.

As for the cost of a cardiologist etc -7 years ago I paid £400 to have a cat examined and diagnosed.

One of mine was heart tested last year at liverpool it cost £176 inc vat (full colour eco doppler)

It wasn't long ago so I'm happy to give a refund, I just wondered if it was reasonable to ask for a small amount to cover the cost of his jabs as of course it is possible he may live a long life? (so for example they get a 85% refund)... Yes, I'd be happy to offer a puppy also...  I totally understand what you're saying about problems coming about further down the line, but this was quite recent...

Thanks Jo

well in they arent expecting anything, i think they would be very grateful for anything back toward the vet costs.

Do you live far away?  Could you not say you want a second opinion with your vet or another vet and see what they think?

the estimate to "see" a cardiologist includes what? Our bichon had scans, tests then heart surgery to shut off a valve at Edinburgh vet hospital, costs approx £1500. So it depends what that £500 includes. Is that just to find out what the problem is, treatment or just consultation???  Insurance should cover.

Hi
I am someone who had the same problem, but I was the buyer, in our case though it was different, we searched for a puppy impressing on the breeder that it must be healthy, as we had a dog with bone cancer and just lost a three year old lab to acute leukaemia, she assured us the puppy had passed all vets tests, sadly she lied on speaking to her vet when we discovered our pup had a grade 5 heart murmur we were told that he had told her about the condition and advised not to sell the pup or if she did she must warn the purchaser, sadly she did none of this.  Long story short, she did eventually refund the purchase price, we had no intention at this stage of giving the pup back we knew she would not do treatment and we already loved her, we did go to cardiologist, we had the 6 weeks free kennel club insurance which we carried on  with, kennel club would not pay out as she was born with the condition operation and cardiologist fees came to over £5000, she had to have the op at 12 weeks old, thankfully she is now nearly 2 she still has a bad murmur, but you would never know to look at her she is full of energy and fiesty.  her yearly check up costs around £400 at the queen mother hospital for small animals cardiologist department and that is just a scan and 5 min chat with cardiologist!  It sadly is not cheap.  I would personally give a refund, the pup is going to cost alot of money, if you have it back you will either have to pay for pts or do treatment both of which will cost.  But that is just my opinion.  As I have said your case is different you did not knowingly sell a sick puppy unlike our breeder.  And I am not a breeder just someone who tried so hard to get a healthy puppy and still it went wrong lol, life is like that sometimes.

Quality of life, we were told in our case (different things can cause heart murmur) her valves were too small, and her heart was already enlarged one side, without treatment she would not make a year and it would not be good for her, with the operation baloon angioplasty, she would have a chance,  she is now nearly two, is never still always running and jumping is in the sea every day lives life to the full, we have no idea if she will make 7 or 8 or live to old age, but she is living a wonderful life right now, we would not have chosen a sick dog but once you have them they are part of the family we had only had her 3 days when we found out about her heart but we could no way have given her back she was already loved.

good luck hope you find a way that all sides are happy

our pup has got a bad heart also,and we have seen specialist,dont know how much yet havent had bill, we seen him again tomorrow.we dont have to travel to him he is freelance and comes to our vets.we cant get refund,he is twelve weeks,everyone advises us to have him pts.