The Kennel Club do themselves no favours.  I phoned them today to ask why an Accredited breeder is allowed to advertise on their site when the hips of the Sire & Dam havent been scored.  All they could say is that the A.B's get the info sent out to them and it explains what criterea is.  I also asked if all A.B's get inspected at some point, Yes I was told. so I told them that there is one person I know who has been an A.B. for a few years so could I assume that she has been inspected?  I was told yes, to which I replied that I was very very disappointed as the breeder in questions establishment is disgusting.  I would be very surprized if she has been inspected.  This makes life very difficult for A.B's who are good breeders.  They were not even interested in who the person was that was advertising on their site.Shocking.

Is hip scored required or recommended for this particular breed?  If it is required I would put all your information in writing to them and request a written response.  As far as an establishment being disgusting, I am afraid that is a subjective opinion and may vary widely from anothers so rather harder to be clear on but again you could put in writting just what you consider to be disgusting about it and request a response.

even tho my dogs are reg with them and my pups do i feel that the kennel club is all about money and lining the pockets of the top people that run it !!!
i only reg them because people think that the dogs are not full ped if there not kc :( its silly but true!!!
i know i will get put down for writing this put this is how i feel

I have been an ABS member since it started and have never been inspected as yet, I think a lot depends on the questionaires ie if the puppy buyers send them back or not, AND how many complaints they receive re members whom others don't think should be members with reasons given maybe getting inspected first.

> i feel that the kennel club is all about money and lining the pockets of the top people that run it !!!

It is a non profit organisation.  Any excess funds are spend on research and dog welfare.

> i only reg them because people think that the dogs are not full ped if there not kc

You could just not sell to people that know so little :-)

very true isabel :)

i only reg them because people think that the dogs are not full ped if there not kc :-( its silly but true!!!

You don't ever sell any pups that might be shown in the future then?? And you don't think hip scores, eye tests etc being printed on the reg cert is very useful for the puppy buyers?

i didnt say that did i marianneB :) i have working dogs and yes they are all tested and i would still test even if i wasnt with kc my 1st girl i had wasnt kc but very very good at her gob and was asked to breed her so i went and had all tests done 1st you see i beleave in the best of health for my dogs before i would bread from them ,sometimes i have afew left over as my breed have big litters so if they go as pets most ppl want kc ,thats just my view as ive experence of this :)

I am also a bit miffed with the KC as I just learned today thet a man from my home town who breeds from his "pet dog and bitch " has just had another litter, the last one was about 9 months ago and they have all been registered with the KC.
I was talking to the "breeders " daughter about it and she said " he does it like that all the time " and I just had to say to her that doing that is very hard on the bitch and that she should not be allowed to have litters everytime she comes in to season and that I could not understand how they were able to register pups from a bitch that had had a litter less than 18 months apart. She just shrugged her shoulders and said well they allways get them registered with the KC.

I have also mentioned in a previous post about a dog who sired litters who all ended up with epilepsy .When the KC were told about it they said they could not do any thing about it and that the owner of the pup, who had died because of this , should maybe go and see the owner of the dog herself and ask her to stop using her dog for breeding.
If The KC are so in to health testing and the best interests of the dog , breeding breeders etc why did they not step in and do something ? For example write to the person and explain about testing , health issues and so on  as they had reason to believe the dogs offspring had shown signs of epilepsy and explain that no more litters would be registered if this was not done.

I think that if the KC were seen to be more active on matters such as this and about inspecting breeders  ( perhaps like the British Horse Society ) where an inspection of stables are done every year and certificates awarded if they are up to standard, people would be less critical about the KC.

the kennel club historically has been basically a registry (and also a governing body for canine pursuits), like our own register of marriages and deaths.

Neither decides who has offspring, just registers the details.

The Kennel club does along with breed clubs decide on breed standards so that dogs can be judged against them.

It is only in recent times (last 15 years) that it has started making restrictions in which circumstances dogs can be registered.

First they brought in the upper age limit for bitches whelping and restricted the total number of litters.

More recently a minimum age was brought in, and now parent offspring and full sibling matings are not registrable.

Health issues are more complex, especially with conditions where the mode of inheritance is not simple (like epilepsy or HD etc).  With breed clubs there are health issues that preclude from registration.

Yes I understand we do need the KC for this purpose as I suppose it sorts out the wheat from the chaff so to speak but They are registering litters from bitches that have had  a litter less than 18 months or so appart so why do they let this go on if they have put in this restriction ?

All I am saying is that if the KC had a bit more authority on dealing with breeders who breed dogs with inherited conditions etc they would maybe be seen in a better light, especially if they have been made aware of the problem. 

Also the Register of marriages  does put restrictions on who you can and cannot marry for example you cannot marry your brother or father and so on.

Also the Register of marriages  does put restrictions on who you can and cannot marry for example you cannot marry your brother or father and so on.

And as Barbara has just stated you now cannot register litters from these matings

More recently a minimum age was brought in, and now parent offspring and full sibling matings are not registrable.

> They are registering litters from bitches that have had a litter less than 18 months or so appart so why do they let this go on if they have put in this restriction ?
>

There is no rule that says this is not allowed. The only rule is one imposed on those who have a Breeder's Licence (issued by their local council) where litters cannot be registered where they are less than twelve months apart. What is wrong with having two litters from the same bitch 18 months apart?

> They are registering litters from bitches that have a litter less than 18 months or so appart

I can't see anything wrong with that.

18 months is ok, what shouldnt be happening is bitches bred on every season or if she has odd seasons at least a year inbetween matings. But in my breed i have heard people advising to breed from them every season once they are old enough as it decreases the risk of her missing. Meaning she is more likely to miss with a season inbetween, no idea if this is true or not and i doubt any research has been done on it either.

They thing that i hate most is breeding from a girl thats a) too young b) too old c) already had enought litters i.e more than 4 :-( and d) bred on every season

Its just pure greed and they obviously dont have the pets interest at heart

Louise

> But in my breed i have heard people advising to breed from them every season

Is this what is being said around the showground?

>Its just pure greed and they obviously dont have the pets interest at heart

Ah!  I think that answered my question.  Pet breeders are not necessarily starting on a firm footing regarding breeding ethics in the first place.

I heard it from another breeder who was told this from a high up breeder, who is well known in the breed and yes does show.

Louise

P.s I dont agree with it whatsoever and if your girl misses beep happens try again next time.

> already had enought litters i.e more than 4

Four sounds like a lot of litters for one bitch to have, to me at least.

Well personally i would only allow 3 IF there were no complications in ANY of the pregnancies whelpings etc but in other breeds they are still fit and well and still will easily produce a litter at 6 years old. In some circumstances a champion bitch that produces excellent puppies and is really doing something for the breed. Not a pet bitch thats just producing pet puppies for her owners pockets.

Louise

can i ask plz....if a bitch had pups at the 6 can they be kc reg ? i was told kc not reg them after 5 years old ?

All the rules regarding registering a litter are on here.  Of course your Breed Club will also have recommendation that you may be required to abide by in order to continue as a member so you should also check your handbook or contact them.

yes i must get a new hand book thankyou for going to the truble of finding that for me :)

I think the KC are being more diligent about checking that required test results are up to date - at least I have found that they are VBG.  I recently registered a litter on line and a couple of days later I got an email from the registration department informing me that the bitch's eye certificate was out of date.  I rang them and informed them the bitch had her eyes tested and gave them the date - they hadn't received the information from the BVA who according to one of the dog papers are about two months behind in supplying the KC with the data.  I photocopied my bitch's eye certificate and sent it to the KC - needless to say they preferred to wait for the "official" form from the BVA! VBG

That is very reassuring.

What does VBG mean?   Don't tell me if it is rude :-)

Very Big Grin. :-)

Oh I don't know.  This internet stuff! :-D

Isobel I thought that there was supposed to be at least 18 months between litters but this guy 's bitch had pups last week so that means she had pups less than 8/9 months ago and they have supposedly been registered . I thought that was not allowed ?

Not that i want my girl to have 4 or more litters, but why is there a rough limit is it bad for them after that?

> Isobel I thought that there was supposed to be at least 18 months between litters

No, licenced breeders must leave a year but unlicenced do not have to.

> but why is there a rough limit is it bad for them after that?

It is not a rough limit, the rules are defined in the link I have given but obviously different breeds and different litter sizes will have a bearing and many breed clubs will have their own appropriate guide lines. 

> No, licenced breeders must leave a year but unlicenced do not have to.

Oh I see ! But why can he get them registered and licenced ones cant ? Still dont understand (I can be a bit dim its the blonde bit in me !!!!!!!! )
This guy is just doing it for the money I know that was said about me when I first joined this site but I dont agree with breeding just for money The thing is all the pups from this bitch are not great they all vary in size the coats are not great ( I groom quite a few of them ) and their temperaments are much to be desired !!!
He has the dog as well and every time the bitch is in season she gets  "caught " it cannot be good for her as I know my JRT looked great after her pups but she gave everything to her pups and got quite thin and he coat got thinner too. She bounced back fairly quickly when she stopped feeding the pups but If I do let her have another litter ( Dont think I will though) I would leave her for at least 18 months .

> But why can he get them registered and licenced ones cant ?

I think the notion is that small hobby breeders will be more concerned about the health and welfare of their bitches and will not proceed with another litter within a year if they consider her unfit for it.  Everyone is governed by the animal welfare laws though so no bitch should be suffering physical harm.

Thanks isabel, have read the link, 6 is a lot and under those guidelines set out by the kC surely would be hard to reach anyway IF the breeder is responsible waiting til bitch is 2 to 2 1/2 and leaving approx 18 months between litters and stopping before the bitch turns 8. Would make it just about to 3 litters, wouldn't it?
Would someone tell me how to do this 'quoting' thing, doesn't work when i try to cut and paste. ;(

> surely would be hard to reach anyway

It's a limit not an aspiration :-)  I think few responsible breeders would wish to have 6 litters.

> It's a limit not an aspiration

Just inhaled my cornflakes - very messy :-D

Same but with a pot noodle! Wasn't even implying that isabel! The KC perhaps should lower the limit of litters to 4 if that is deemed a safe amount. Am agreeing with you!!!!!!!!!!

> The KC perhaps should lower the limit of litters to 4 if that is deemed a safe amount.

I would not say 6 was unsafe.  It depends on the bitch and the size of litters, natural whelping etc.  Most of us would not want so many litters but I suppose breeders of working or assistance dogs, for instance, may have different reasons to take more puppies from a very good, healthy bitch than merely perpetuating a line.

I can see why now, thanks. :)

I think i need to rant  yes i joined the abs , after thinking long and hard about it  , and thought maybe if the majority joined it might make a difference  , i health check all my dogs breeding stock or not  but today i learned of a breeder ? has kc reg dogs (2 giant breeds ) never health checked any dogs and has just sold a litter unregistered , parents not hip or elbow scored  and she has been given mebership to the abs  i give up , it just says the kc will take anyones money  ( to cap it all the kc know about the dam  not being health checked as she had to get restrictions lifted by kc  and they sent her a letter saying the restrictions were lifted but they had no health checks on record could she plse forward them on ( no chance of that cos there arent any )
maybe i was very naive  in my thinking  that the kc wouldnt let someone like this into the abs

?????
i cant understand why the KC would allow someone like this to Reg pups as an AB breeder can you Newfienook.
The mind boggles!!!!

>maybe i was very naive  in my thinking  that the kc wouldnt let someone like this into the abs

Have you reported what you know, with evidence, of course, to the KC? They don't have crystal balls ... ;-)

They don't have crystal balls ...

No they don't, but you'd think they would want to see proof of health testing BEFORE lifting breeding restrictions.

It depends if it's a breed where health testing is a requirement or a recommendation.

Sorry I was presuming it was Newfs, which do require health testing, maybe I was wrong. :-)

If it is, hipscoring is the only required test. Others are recommended.

If this particular AB hasn't had his/her breeding dog/s hipscored, the KC should be informed.

hipscoring is the only required test.

Which is why i thought the kc would have checked BEFORE lifting breeding restrictions

It's possible (though I have my doubts) that the test could have been recently done, the vet said the x-rays look good and sent them off, and they haven't yet been assessed officially.

If the breed is tested using a BVA scheme many results of hip, eye and elbow testing, are held up so are not appearing on any KC website or BRS editions. The BVA have been short staffed and have had major building works going on so had to move to temporary offices. The KC have suggested if you have your certificates through and it does not apppear on the KC health site to contact them. If the hold up is because of the BVA the BVA have said that thay can fast track results through to the KC. It is in this weeks Our Dogs.

No its not newfies in this case but i belive it is hips that are required in both of the breeds in question. she has openly said her dogs havent been scored  cos " i know they have good hips"  !!!!

Not only do the K.C. not have crystal balls, when it comes to policing the A.B.S. and enforcing health tests they have none of any description
Stan Berry(member 20632)