Hi,

I think im going to get Fred castrated but i wanted to put it on the forum to see if anyone has any info to chip in....

Fred will be 2 in February and is a Black MIniature Poodle. He really is a generally lovely dog and has been a pleasure to own and train.
Lately his behaviour has changed and i think it is due to his hormones. He is a lot more interested in bitches, and his recall (that used to be superb) is becoming less and less great. He kind of has the attitude that he will come to me when he fancys, not when i instruct him to. If there is a bitch around when we are out he makes this strange whimpering/screeching noise and becomes fixated in her. I am scared that if he came across a bitch he liked when off lead he would stop at nothing to get to her.

Last week Fred wouldnt leave alone a visitor to our house that had been around a bitch puppy. He was jumpin up at him and sniffing him and where the puppy had obviously been and then :-O started humping his leg :-O When i went to remove him from the visitor he turned on me, baring his teeth and growling. This is behaviour he has never shown and i didnt really know what to do. I put Fred into the lounge to calm down but this just seemed to make him worse and he whimpered and went loopy trying to get out and back at the visitor. After the visitor left i let Fred back out into the kitchen and he proceeded to rip up and destroy his blanket in his bed in what i can only describe as sheer frustration.

I really dont want this behaviour to get worse. I dont show him and dont intend to breed so can only see castration as a solution to sort out this problems which i believe to be hormone related.

Please help

Have you spoken to your vet ? Have you heard of the Suprelorin implant that is much closer to castration than Tardak(it even reduces the size of his b*lls)

i have used tardak and i found it relly good calms down straight away although they say it can take a week to kick in and last only about 3 months. but for his own health and your sanity if your not going to show or breed he really doesnt need his danglers!!

On the other hand there is no guarantee that castration will cure this problem, training will and castration might. If I were you I would try a chemical method first as castration may change your lad in ways you would not wish.

> i have used tardak and i found it relly good calms down straight away although they say it can take a week to kick in and last only about 3 months. but for his own health and your sanity if your not going to show or breed he really doesnt need his danglers!!

Suprelorin lasts a minimum of 6 months & gives a better indication of whether castration will work, it doesn't have any long term side effects either. hopefully it will available in the 12 months version in the UK soon. Three months isn't really long enough to see if castration will stop the behaviour

We had our Papillon, Freddy, castrated when he was not far off a year old. Prior to the op he was constantly humping our spayed bitch, as well as going bonkers over all the other bitches he saw - and sometimes having a go with other small males as well! Anyway castration definitely stopped this, and he straight away seemed a lot calmer and less frustrated. He very rarely tries to hump these days! I did not notice any other changes to his temperament and no trouble with coat change or anything either. The only other big difference is that his wee is no longer very smelly - we used to wash his bits every day because the smell was so bad but now he is fresh and never smells bad, so only positive changes for Freddy so far.  (over 6 months ago) Also he recovered from the op really quickly, so much easier than when our girl was spayed, and at least he can never be a daddy so that's one less thing to worry about too.

Well he is approx 14yrs old humm! quite normal. Don't you think? Speak to a long time poodle breeder, don't make a decision you can't go back on. Is this the only reason you want him done? Would you have your son done for the same reason? In my opinion he will calm down.

Denese

> Would you have your son done for the same reason? In my opinion he will calm down.
>

????Not sure how you can possibly compare castrating a dog to doing this to a human? Apart from anything else human beings are quite free to produce offspring as they so wish wheareas if we let our dogs mate as they so desire it would hardly be very responsible!
I'm sure there are lots of reasons to consider for and against castrating your dog but I don't think it helps to humanise them, I'm quite sure ours doesn't think 'oh how I wish I could be a father!!!'

I think what Denese is trying to point out is that a human boy of 14 would be hormonal - but would grow out of it with training ;)  as will Fred if he is allowed.

Castration doesnt always work, you chose a male dog after all so maybe you should go with it and see what happens, it might just be a phase.  One of mine is very interested in bitches and castrated males, but with training he has improved alot.  It takes effort but I would never want to destroy his maleness - if I wanted to do that then I may as well have bought a bitch.

Hi Fred's Mum :-)

As you can see we have a couple of things in common ;-) (see avatar)

Jack and Rory are 4 years old this year and still entire.  At 2-2.5 years old they went through adolescance and I am very pleased to report are now back to being normal happy dogs.  I would say that for this particular breed they take a long time to fully mature - Rory's coat was not of the correct quality until he was about 2.5 years old.

It is entirely up to you to do what you will, but I do not personally agree with castration for convenience sake.  As stated, that is the age my boys went through their awkward phase.  They are not used for breeding, never have been, and have no behavioural problems.

As Fred is a small breed and almost 2 he's certainly mature enough for their not to be any detrimental effects to being castrated. It's a relatively small op too, which they tend to recover quite quickly from so I would say why not? Of course you can't expect castration to take the place of more recall training and learning better manners, but it may well cut down on his womanising activities :-)

Well our dog is still a male dog, just a less frustrated one, and we're happy with our decision. Our bitch is spayed too, so does that make her femaleness destroyed ?  I think she seems happier now she doesn't have seasons, which brought obvious discomfort and mood changes.  I also feel we have been responsible to ensure there will be no offspring from our dogs. Clearly there are differing opinions on this subject but I don't think it is necessary to suggest it is wrong to spay/castrate. (my reply was to ClaireyS)

im not saying its wrong, but it seems people look at castration before proper training.

Spaying a bitch is totally different from castrating a dog, if done at the right time they dont tend to lose their femininity, unfortunately castrated males can become feminie and attract all sorts of unwanted attention from entire male dogs.

Neither of my dogs are castrated but there wont be any unwanted offspring from them either - because I am a responsible owner.

> Neither of my dogs are castrated but there wont be any unwanted offspring from them either - because I am a responsible owner.

You know, actually I am also a responsible owner - and I did not choose to have our dog castrated just to save me bothering to check on his whereabouts or train him, which seems to be the implication. I felt, and still feel, we made a decision which was in the best interests of our dog for a variety of reasons, I do not think he is now 'feminine' and he does not attract any unwanted attention!

> im not saying its wrong, but it seems people look at castration before proper training.
>

I really don't think it's fair to make statements like this as I'm sure the OP also trains her dog properly and is trying to make a sensible decision in her dog's best interests , not save herself the bother of proper training.

I actually said it can make dogs feminie, not all dogs but trust me alot of neutered dogs do attract unwanted attention (I should know im the owner of the unwanted attention ).  And im not saying you are not a responsible owner, I actually felt you were implying those who dont castrate are not responsible owners.

And im not saying Freds mum doesnt train her dog, im sure she does, what I am saying is dont go down the castration route before trying other options - there is no way back once a dog is castrated.

Please dont get defensive, im not aiming my posts at anyone in particular just offering my experiences.

ClaireyS,
Thanks for that, I do say things a little blunt.
A very long experienced vet ,said it to me, years ago, when I inquired about castration. Plus a lot more. I felt about an inch tall. He was right. He said would you have your son done. If he gets a little shirty in his teens would you get him castrated. I did a lot of research after that. I personally do not agree with castration, or spaying unless it is a bad health problem. That is why doing your research on the breed of dog you wish to have and temperament , pro's and con's are so important.
As far as breeding everywhere, I would not expect any dog owners on here to allow there dogs to roam. or breed everywhere.

Denese

I completely agree with ClaireyS & Denese.  Incidentally, my dogs have been attacked by neutered male dogs, not entire ones.  Peculiar.

You also have to consider the coat of the dog - poodle coats once neutered go soft and whispy (certainly this is the case with the boy's parents).  My dogs stay out during the day in a covered run when I am at work, I could not put their parents out because the coat is not weatherproof!  And this is a normal phase for males (dogs and humans) to go through, they do grow out of it.

> I actually felt you were implying those who dont castrate are not responsible owners.
>

I certainly did not mean to imply anything of the sort - I have no concern whether other people choose this option for their dogs, I was merely offering the OP our experience to help her make whatever decision she makes.

> Please dont get defensive, im not aiming my posts at anyone in particular just offering my experiences. <

Well apologies, but I do feel defensive if is being suggested that choosing castration for your dog means you can't be bothered to train them. I felt the OP had concerns about her own dog being stressed and frustrated and in no way was just looking for an easy option. Like you, I'm just offering a personal experience which is that our dog was very much more relaxed and happy after the op. Each to their own choices.

> it doesn't have any long term side effects either

Might it be better to say it doesn't have any known long term side effects? :-) I am being a bit pedantic I admit - but sometimes these things can be thought about drugs following trials yet there can still potentially be problems that haven't become obvious.

>Might it be better to say it doesn't have any known long term side effects?

This drug has been used for treatment of enlarged prostrate in humans for far longer that it has been used in dogs & before the dogs it was also used in zoo/wildlife parks animals to prevent unwanted births, with no unwanted side effects. After all humans are far more likely to have known side effects than other animals

> After all humans are far more likely to have known side effects than other animals

It depends on the drug and the metabolism of the drug. Ibuprofen is safe (within therapeutic margins) in humans and toxic to dogs, thalidomide was tested safe in pregnancy for rats but turned out not to be for humans. Different species metabolise different drugs in different ways. So in terms of dogs the particularly relevant studies would be in domestic dogs and to a lesser extent in related species - wolves etc - not other zoo animals of a different genus, or humans....

In all these situations it is still no known side effects. ;-)

Whatever you say, obviously better to risk a dogs life under GA for an operation that may or may not affect a dogs behaviour, than to risk the implant which to date hasn't had any unwanted side effects(unlike Tardak BTW Transient side-effects of increased appetite, polydipsia(excessive thirst.) and polyuria(excessive urination) have occasionally been seen following administration of Tardak. Controlling food intake will prevent an increase in bodyweight. However, where these effects are excessive, therapy should cease.
As some progestogen injections can cause local changes in the hair coat such as lightening of colour and/or hair loss, it is recommended that subcutaneous injections are given at an inconspicuous site, e.g. inner surface of the thigh.)

Hi thanks for all the input.

Just to reiterate, i do spend a lot of time training and up until now ive had a dog whos recall is very nearly perfect. His recall at the moment is not bad becuase of a training issue but because IMO his hormones are getting the better of him. Ditto why he went for me. I'm sorry but i will not put up with him being "hormonal" if he is going to show such nasty behaviour (he is not that sort of dog) which is why i want to sort it out now sooner rather than later.
My other concern was if he were to run across a road to get to a bitch, the consequences are dire.
I've never owned a bitch but if they suffer hormone related mood swings before a season similar to we do before a period then i assume Freddie is getting the same as young teenage boys. As i do not intend to breed from him i dont really want to see him in the state he gets in every time he smells a bitch.
I have read on this forum before that people send thier dogs to stay with someone else if they have a bitch in season in the house because the male goes loopy. This is what i have with Freddie almost all of the time!

Hi Fred's Mum, I can only itterate that it is temporary and perfectly NORMAL, very much like a teenage boy.  Jack and Rory's mum did not go hormonal with seasons - she was and even spayed is still the exactly same stroppy little madam.  It's a perfectly natural growth phase, the hormones are not just for s*x, they play a major part in the physical and mental development also, I would never penalise the dog because I didn't like how he was during a normal phase in his life.  I would much rather neuter people than dogs. JMHO.

Thank you,
i totally understand it is natural but when my dog tries to bite me due to the severity of the hormones i feel as a responsible owner i need to take immediate action.
Same as humans who suffer bad mood swimgs / hormone related problems are treated too. I dont want him to carry on suffering when there is no need to.

I still think it is a bit knee-jerk.  He growled at you.  If he truly wanted to bite you he would have done it no questions asked.  As it is, he just told you "That's soooo unfair!" like Kevin & Perry.  A strong harsh No like you mean business shows him that behaviour like that is unaceptable. JMHO

He has bitten me in a similar incident to the one i outlined above. He didnt do any damage but thats not the point. Believe me saying NO did nothing. I tried it. I tried everything! That was when i went to remove him and he went for me. If i was being knee jerk i would have gone ahead and got him castrated :-)  but i thought the best idea would be to get other peoples opinions and suggestions before i made up my mind

My apologies, I only read that he went for you.

I can't see a problem with getting him castrated at all! You are not using him to breed from, if he got out and to a bitch by accident you would have an irate bitch owner(like I've had to cope with!) banging on the door demanded action...I think you need to do what YOU feel is right. Look at the fallout on here when someone has an accidental mating...they're usually hung, drawn and quartered! Best of luck, Dawn x

Thank you Dawn.
My gut instinct is to get him done but i wanted reassurance that it was the right thing. I tell you i am close to tears, the whole dynamics of the house have changed because of his behaviour and walking is no longer as much fun. You can imagine how hurt i was when he bit me, even though i know he didnt mean it it made me cry not in pain but partly embarrasment and because he would never do something like that normally. I am just desperate fora  solution and to get things back to normal

Thanks again

Believe me, I have 2 boys now, never had boys before...since they've had the high life so to speak, they are murder when a bitch is in season! ;-)

Can I ask a question perhaps for the benefit of the OP but actually to those of you with experience of castration.

I've heard the arguments abouts castration causing arrested development in young dogs, effectively keeping them as puppies in some ways.  If castration is done at a time of high hormonal/teenage activity - are you in danger of freezing the dog at this point too?

I'm curious about the actual science element; 14 yr old boys experience a rush of testosterone around this age, is it the same for dogs?  I'm wondering where all the testosterone goes when cut off at source, how long does it take to dissipate?  How long before those testosterone driven behaviours subside?

Am I being a bit dim?!! :)

Good point - i have no idea. I would guess that once the testerone stops being produced they go back to normal(??) Something i will research  and talk to my vet about. Thank you for bringing it up.

How did others who had a dog castrated in its peak (so to speak) at around 2 years old find it?

> Whatever you say, obviously better to risk a dogs life under GA for an operation that may or may not affect a dogs behaviour, than to risk the implant which to date hasn't had any unwanted side effects(unlike Tardak BTW Transient side-effects of increased appetite, polydipsia(excessive thirst.) and polyuria(excessive urination) have occasionally been seen following administration of Tardak. Controlling food intake will prevent an increase in bodyweight. However, where these effects are excessive, therapy should cease.

As some progestogen injections can cause local changes in the hair coat such as lightening of colour and/or hair loss, it is recommended that subcutaneous injections are given at an inconspicuous site, e.g. inner surface of the thigh

And that is relevant to what I was saying how?????????  I must have missed the bits in this thread where I mentioned GAs and Tardak....

Fred's Mum - I am not personally a fan of castration except for medical reasons. :-)

Fred's Mum - Brainless posted a fab link on the Great Dane thread in this topic.

Can I ask a question perhaps for the benefit of the OP but actually to those of you with experience of castration.

I've heard the arguments abouts castration causing arrested development in young dogs, effectively keeping them as puppies in some ways.  If castration is done at a time of high hormonal/teenage activity - are you in danger of freezing the dog at this point too?

All four of our boys are neutered. Our pyrenees got neutered at 2 1/2 years old (that's when we got him as a rescue dog), our saluki lurchers were done at about 10 months old and our American Cocker was done at 14 months old. None of them could be described as displaying puppyish behaviour. Flash, one of our saluki lurchers, was mentally immature (sort of...) longer than the others only really growing up at about 4 years old, but I strongly suspect that is down to his individual temperament rather than due to being neutered young!

For me, there's no question: all our boys (and girls, should we ever have any) will be neutered unless there is a medical or behavioural reason not to. 

I'm curious about the actual science element; 14 yr old boys experience a rush of testosterone around this age, is it the same for dogs?  I'm wondering where all the testosterone goes when cut off at source, how long does it take to dissipate?  How long before those testosterone driven behaviours subside?

I can't remember how long exactely it took with the other boys, but I distinctly remember when Jesse, our ACS was neutered, he stopped humping every dog he came across within less than two weeks and turned back into the happy go lucky chap that he was before his hormones kicked in that turned him into a obsessed dog that wanted to hump every bitch he came across and eventually dogs too and started to aggress towards male dogs more and more.

In our pyrenees, neutering had absolutely no influence on his behaviour (probably because it was done late and he never showed any particular sexually motivated behaviour), Flash I can't judge as he was done before he came to us, but the other two, I can say that it has really made a difference and has changed them back into the happy content dogs that could worry about just normal doggy stuff again (sniffing, playing etc.) rather than worry about finding a mate one way or another all the time.

Vera

A friend had their dog done age 3 to "calm" him down - it hasnt made the slightest bit of difference.

I wouldn't have thought neutering would 'calm down' a dog in general, just reduce the sexual behaviour and urge. That's what we noticed anyway, the dog's temperament remained unchanged other than removing the stressful sexual frustration.
Edited to add - we noticed the frustration had gone straight away, which funnily enough we also noticed when we had our male rabbit neutered! He went from being so wound up he humped eveything (including our small female dog!!) to a happy contented rabbit as soon as he'd been done.

but sometimes behaviour is determined by hormones eg. agression towards other dogs ... a dog doesnt have to be humping to show sexual frustration.

I'm certainly no expert on these kind of behaviours. None of our pets had any aggressive tendencies, it was the constant humping that drew our attention! They seemed to get really wound up by it and we just noticed they seemed a lot more contented to be free of the overwhelming urge!

Hi Freds mum.
Can only tell you my experience of having my min boy castrated at 3 years old.He suffered badly with seperation anxeity when my bitches were in season and as I didnt intend to use him for stud decided to have him "done". He has now become a very loving and calm boy.His recall is also a lot better (but not perfect) and I consider it was the best thing to have done for him.Also his coat texture has never altered.
What ever you decide to do good luck.

Thank you everyone :-) i am booking into the vets when i can for an appointment to chat to my lovely vet about it.
If all is well and my vet agrees i think i will go ahead with neutering Fred. I'm not doing it to "calm him down", i am sensible enough to realise castration isnt going to change his temperment per se, but will stop the testosterone which is causing the humping which in turn causes the frustration and anger. Will let you know how we get on.
Thanks again.

I think each case has to be judged on its merits and one solution does not necessarily fit all. Generally I would not advocate castration but some dogs, like some humans, can become hyper sexual and the accompanying behaviour becomes problematic. It could be that there is hormone overload, above what is normal for a surge at that age. In these cases I think castration is reasonable.

ask your vet about chemical castration so you can see if it works before you commit to castration.

Freds Mum
You say: i am sensible enough to realise castration isnt going to change his temperment per se, but will stop the testosterone which is causing the humping

Just be aware that humping can become a learned behaviour and whilst castration will lower the level of testosterone, in some instances the behaviour will still remain.  Castration is no 100% failsafe guarantee for eliminating humping.  Whilst your boy may be experiencing a testosterone surge at the moment, the surge should decline back to a lower level naturally in a month or so, so it may be worth riding the storm and getting in some training to teach him how to handle his hormones for the next few weeks and then re-evaluating in a month or so. 

Just to let you know I visited the vets and Freddie had his consultation. The vet agreed that castration is the best option.
So, next tuesday (the day after his 2nd birthday) Freddie will be having his bits off :-)
Thanks to those who took the time to share opinions.

Well all the best Freddie - hopefully he'll be like our Freddy who barely noticed and was full of get up and go straight away! Let us know how he gets on, Ruth