Creating a new thread so as not to detract from an OP's original query on another thread:-

A poster asked:

>a stupid question really a friend and i were discussing barf diets and she is dead set against it , i do give mine tripe  not every day , but the big debate we had was about raw chicken , she is convinced that the bones would perforate the bowl , if they did "i know there would be a lot of  ill dogs about " I tried to tell her it was different from cooked chicken bones ,can someone confirm if that is the case , just to settle this discussion cos its getting a bit heated now<

The debate spawned from that (and other comments) I thought was an interesting one, but was detracting from answers needed to a specific question asked by the OP.

So I thought it might be useful to sidestep to here :)

I like the article below, purely for contemplation.(on the differing perspectives)
(also Sue is a friend of mine from when I lived & raced in the States ;))

Dr.T.J. (Jr.) Dunn worked for the racing sled dog veterinary med. assoc.
He e-mailed several people working in the husbandry of Wolves regarding the topic issue, here are their replies:
Anecdotes in response to question: Value of raw bones & instances of bone foreign GI problems (in wild canids)?

an interesting read, draw from it what you will. :)

I've read that article before and I also think that is information, particularly in terms of how the hair from animals consumed "wrap" bone fragments to protect the wolve's or wild canines intestinal track.

My vet has had to do surgery over the years on dogs with impactions and intestinal damage because of being fed raw bones, including chicken bones.  He actually does not discourage anyone from feeding their dogs bone - he just says if they want to that they need to get in touch with a vet ASAP if there are any signs of intestinal problems.

I know people say that chicken bones are "soft" - but I like to partially debone chicken before I roast it and even when thin bones break (wing or back) there are sometimes needle-sharp points.  I cannot see how dogs avoid getting injured once in a while when they chew a chicken bone and the same thing happens.  Whether we notice or not is another thing, dogs cannot say they hurt from soft tissue having been scraped by sharp bone. Their digestive tracks are more acidic than ours, but time is still required.

If I could convince myself that bones were safe I would feed them in a heartbeat solely to avoid plaque build-up on teeth.  When I am lucky enough to find raw marrow bones I will give them to my dogs because they are impossible for them to actually crunch (I have small dogs) - but they are rarer than gold in my area.  No way would I ever feed the dry bones available in pet food stores. 

Definitely interesting. :-) It's certainly true that vets do have to deal with impaction and perforation from eating bones - even raw bones - but how great the risk is I couldn't tell you. It certainly seems to be more common than other conditions that we owners worry ourselves into a tizzy about (or maybe the dogs in this area are particularly bad at coping with bones!). The vets still don't say not to give raw bones, but to be very observant and aware of the possibilities of problems. It's impossible to say how many wild canids die from side-effects of eating bones because they tend to hide away to die, and the bodies are never found and PMed.

Good article Liv, saved to faves for fully digesting later (no pun intended!)

Cairnmania, it's likely most vets experiences of dogs eating any form of bones are likely to be negative - after all how many of us take our dogs to the vet to say how well they look?  I'm glad it hasn't made your own vet anti raw feeding.  In my practice one of the two full time vets is very antsy about dogs getting bones whereas the other is actually quite keen to change over LOL.

I think we each have to weigh up the pros and cons of everything and go with our own instincts.  Certainly I don't believe anyone should go into things lightly - regardless of whether they are selecting a complete or home prepared route.

regards, Teri :)

> I think we each have to weigh up the pros and cons of everything and go with our own instincts.  Certainly I don't believe anyone should go into things lightly - regardless of whether they are selecting a complete or home prepared route.

I'm with you on this! I see merits (and problems-potential) in both and am happy to acknowledge both.. rather than a dogmatic denial of those that don't fit my preference.
    And that is what I have a problem with, or rather, in truth.. that is what annoys me about posts on feeding threads ;) The two camps irrepressible descision to fail to acknowledge the universal truths in either method (and universal, fallacies, myths...)
    This never ceases to amaze me (the want to use and to vicariously ignore certain 'data', research,opinion or fact to suit personal preference/belief)
      In terms of 'much trolled out' arguments I never cease to be amused by the rawfeeder touting the 'salmonella instances in commercial food recalls' to the commercialfeeder touting back the 'bone impaction/perforation instances'.
     I would venture to say that percentage wise both instances probably rank the same - rare! but undeniably they exist, to deny that in 'jump from a great height' dismissive posts is foolhardy at best.

Just an 'IMO' of course ;)

I'm still not comfortable feeding my dogs raw bone from any source other than chicken thighs/wings (specifically small/young birds) and lamb breast (mainly cartilidge).  I do think the risk, certainly with my own breed's size etc and individual dogs' gusto, of offering for eg pork ribs is too high.  They have occasionally had lamb necks and a breed mentor regularly feeds whole rabbit but it is the entire rabbit, fur, insides etc (eugh, I couldn't do it - we had a house pet bunny for too long!).

I do agree wholeheartedly that it's concerning how dismissive some arguments are regardless of which preferences are being debated.  I fed my first two dogs entirely raw meat and biscuit with added SA37 or ground bone meal.  I hadn't heard of Billinghurst or any dedicated raw feeders, I simply followed the advice of one of the dogs' breeders and she recommended a source for tripe, lamb, chicken and liver some minced, some in chunks.  These dogs had fabulous coats and condition and yet never a bone passed their lips nor any fish, fruit, veg other than table scraps (a high proportion then LOL).   It never occurred to me to feed them a 'complete' - why would it when they were fit, happy, healthy and ate with relish what was easily and cheaply available :)

It's much too broad a subject for anyone and everyone to have all the answers - and that's before bringing into the equasion any breed specific never mind dog specific requirements!

> They have occasionally had lamb necks and a breed mentor regularly feeds whole rabbit but it is the entire rabbit, fur, insides etc (eugh, I couldn't do it - we had a house pet bunny for too long!).
>

my friend raw feeds and it would probably make you heave Teri if you saw the pigs heads and other such delights in her garden.  Everything from bunnies to fresh pigs ears to turkey necks.

Crumbs - I sooooo wont be looking for an intro Ali LOL (I'm having palpitations just at the thought ).  The 'bunny lady' also used to feed baby chicks from the freezer and said she kept finding tiny beaks and feet everywhere aaaaaargh - needless to say they're off menu here too!

that is gross but at least she could use the beaks to make an attractive windchime...

:-D

interesting article! as i said in previous post, a lot of dogs do well on a raw diet (and equally, many do well on a complete diet) but as a veterinary nurse i do see problems from raw feeding, including eating bones, both raw and cooked. the only bones i will give my boy are large marrow ones for gnawing on. i saw a poor westie who got a raw chicken bone stuck in throat, and perforated oesphagus actually die from post op compications.
each to their own, im sure everyone has their reasons for feeding what they do.

I also know of someone whose dog died because of a raw chicken bone - it slashed a vein in the dogs throat.  Hence, as tempting as it is for me when I hear about how chicken wings can keep tartar off teeth, I cannot bring myself to give them to my own dogs.

And yes, lots more dogs die from swallowing bits of toys and other nonedibles too.   So it is really all about weighing risk versus benefit and an individual decision.  (I CANNOT believe the number of people that will allow their dogs to play with sticks - throwing them, etc.  Talk about an accident waiting to happen.)

That said - the choice is not actually about feeding raw versus feeding commercial food.   You can feed a raw without ever feeding whole bones and avoid that risk entirely.  I know for myself if I had a dog with skin problems or other problems that were possibly the result of allergy or intolerances of some kind and had failed to eliminate them with a commercial diet - I'd would feed exclusively homecooked or raw.  No question. 

i give my boy large marrow bones to keep his teeth clean, he loves them, but i am like you, cannot bring myself to give him smaller bones. I have nothing personally against homeprepared diets, i just see what happens when it isnt correctly planned and prepared.

on the subject of sticks, had a dog in today with a pharyngeal stick injury! see these more commonly,and often quite nasty wounds. :(

I was always told by my mother when i was younger not to give the dog chicken bones as they splinter...i always remember this and would never give mine any now.