its come to my attention on another thread that people may still have a totally incorrect view of what feminism is, so i would like to know if you consider yourselves feminists? and why to your answer?

to clarify, this is for the boys to, its possible to be both male and a feminist.

isnt "totally incorrect view" a contradiction in terms?

:-D

dont know wether i am or not , suffice to say  married 25years divorced 4  can cope quite well without the male of the species do all car/diy and jobs around the house myself  i think i perhaps have the incorrect view of feminism  please enlighten me if i have

I think you might ;-)  Feminism is not about "doing without men", just having the same range of opportunities.

> i think i perhaps have the incorrect view of feminism  please enlighten me if i have

isabel is right, feminism is at its most basic simply believing that women should have equality with men. there are lots of different forms, the most common being the usually unacknowledged lipstick feminism- basically i want equality but i like being feminine to! :)

OOpps you learn something new everday !!

Yes, I'm one- sticks hand up- equality of opportunity for all whilst celebrating our differences is what I say.

Oh and I think women should be allowed to wear trousers in the show ring if they want but I would draw the line at flashing cleavage to get the upper hand -wonders if some men wear extra tight trousers if show judge is a gay man?

> Yes, I'm one- sticks hand up- equality of opportunity for all whilst celebrating our differences is what I say

hurrah!

> I would draw the line at flashing cleavage to get the upper hand

well i don't show but i must admit having done this to get served in the pub quicker lol- any advantage! lol

> wonders if some men wear extra tight trousers if show judge is a gay man?

i suppose it depends on whats in the trousers lol

> wonders if some men wear extra tight trousers if show judge is a gay man?

Erm nothing that obvious they do slightly more subtle things different aftershaves and such but I'm not telling how I know lol

>> Erm nothing that obvious they do slightly more subtle things different aftershaves and such but I'm not telling how I know lol

oh go on, that sounds interesting!!

Nope its off topic LOL

lol, i don't mind if you hijack

I am also a feminist since I agree with the dictionary definition (equality) but I think the term itself sounds like it actually means a female bias or female superiority - I kind of think there should be a general term used for gender equality . I think in some ways there is bias against males too eg why is it that females can have the choice of wearing trousers or skirts but men would be laughed at for wearing a skirt?!! Also  it seems like some jobs have female bias eg working with young children is generally female dominated. (maybe men don't want to do that I have no idea) Also I think men may still get some stick for looking after their own children full time whilst their female partner has a full time job. What I mean is, there can still be inequality on both sides, so I tend not to call myself feminist simply because to me it sounds too pro female - even though I agree with the true definition. 

Satincollie, what a shameless tease and spoilsport. I shall be snuffing the air in future trying to suss out the competition.

Yes I am a feminist.  Proud of it too! 

I believe that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men.  I believe that women who get to the top of their career, shouldnt be assumed that they laid down to get that far!  I believe that women should also have to pay for dates (goes both ways).  I think its alright for a woman, to initiate a relationship (ie ask a guy out) instead of sitting at home waiting for a guy to ask them out. 

Do I go as far as some feminists, who decide to re-write words so it doesnt say "men" in it?  NO!  Am I happy to wear an underwire bra?  YES! 

Feminist I am, and thats alright! 

> I think in some ways there is bias against males too eg why is it that females can have the choice of wearing trousers or skirts but men would be laughed at for wearing a skirt?!! Also  it seems like some jobs have female bias eg working with young children is generally female dominated. (maybe men don't want to do that I have no idea) Also I think men may still get some stick for looking after their own children full time whilst their female partner has a full time job.

i fully agree with you, i believe in the rights of women without infringing the rights of men. but part of the problem is we are still socialised from infancy to ascribe certain roles to women and to men- for example men should be 'breadwinners' not home makers. women are more allowed to go into 'masculine' areas than men into 'feminine' ones

>>it seems like some jobs have female bias eg working with young children is generally female dominated. (maybe men don't want to do that I have no idea)

this is very mixed. one the one hand women are socialised to be caring and are subconsiously steered into jobs that involve emotional labour, nursing, teaching etc where men are considered weak if they show an interest. even in the likes of teaching where you see both sexes more now men dominate in technical subjects, women in arts subjects. studies have shown that male nurses see the job more technically, like the mechanics of the body than female nurses who feel the job is one of care.

> I believe that women should also have to pay for dates (goes both ways)

see that gets me to! the person who asks should pay imo. liam and i tend to go with whoevers bank balance is healthiest at the time, but we live together and share bills to makes little diff who pays for that stuff.

I think I am a feminst because I will share my life with my man and not allow him to expect me to 'play wifey'. This is something I have seen over and over and it really irks. I used to despise the girls who would just drop friends in favour of the new boyfriend. Cant understand how they could do that.
Karen

Unfortunatley there are a few women that see being as a feminist as something derogatory :(. Very often I have had other women challange me when I have said I am a feminist, stating how can I be when I am married with 3 Sons !!!!!! ( Insert puzzelled smiley).

> Very often I have had other women challange me when I have said I am a feminist, stating how can I be when I am married with 3 Sons !!!!!! ( Insert puzzelled smiley).

thats starting to worry me... i plan on doing human rights law and focusing on gender issues. i never thought i'd have to fight the women about it!

> i fully agree with you, i believe in the rights of women without infringing the rights of men. but part of the problem is we are still socialised from infancy to ascribe certain roles to women and to men- for example men should be 'breadwinners' not home makers. women are more allowed to go into 'masculine' areas than men into 'feminine' ones
>

I totally agree Astarte. I think there are still a lot of jobs seen as too feminine for boys, in fact I think the stereotyping can be even worse for boys sometimes. I have noticed that often mums even steer little boys away from 'girly' toys and games etc but mind less if girls play with traditionally boyish things!   

> think there are still a lot of jobs seen as too feminine for boys, in fact I think the stereotyping can be even worse for boys sometimes. I have noticed that often mums even steer little boys away from 'girly' toys and games etc but mind less if girls play with traditionally boyish things!   

not to mention if a man becomes a nursery teacher what is the immediate concern right now? with the tabaloid madness the instant thought is "gah!! paedophile!" which is ridiculous

> not to mention if a man becomes a nursery teacher what is the immediate concern right now? with the tabaloid madness the instant thought is "gah!! paedophile!" which is ridiculous

Quite - it's sad. I am sure there must be some men who would be lovely nursery teachers but I doubt it's very easy for them to work in that profession.

> studies have shown that male nurses see the job more technically, like the mechanics of the body than female nurses who feel the job is one of care.

I didn't know that Kim.  About the studies I mean.  Because when I lost Dad a few years ago, his nurse was male.  Even knowing that Dad was dying, the guy gave him so much care and dignity, that, to me, perhaps showed a feminie side.  Is that sexist?  I don't mean it to be.  The nurse meant so much to me, because of his handling of my Dad, and he's a nurse I'll never forget.  Jean

> Is that sexist?  I don't mean it to be

i don't think it is, i think its posible to be masculine or feminine but not be constrained by gender, i'm a girly girl but a feminist!

i can't for the life of me remember who did the study, but i think my favorite lecturer was planning on doing something similar (he's interested in gender and discourse)

but i think that to do nursing at all you need to have the caring side to :) just most male nurses think about it that way first, it doesn't mean they are any less caring proffessionals.

i'm glad your dad got someone so good to help him and you :)

I consider men to be my equal. If their standards are high enough good on them, they obviously had a very good Mother
;-)

Lol can I borrow that one to refer to my sons :) :) :)

Unfortunatley there are some out there, probably of the understanding that feminists are women that want more or believe they are better than men. I hope it's lack of understanding not real discriminationn in these cases :)

> i'm a girly girl but a feminist!
>

Cant you be both?  I dont think I have to give up my girly feminine flirty side, just to be a feminist.   I can have both.

I dont know if its the same there, as it is here, but if you say you are a feminist, it is also assumed you are gay, or a male basher.   So putting the label on here, can have some negative associations with it, that may or may not be true. 

I think a lot of people think of a feminist as a "shout for my rights, we have to fight the boys, proove we are better than them etc etc."

I think any body worth their salt, male or female, should be a free thinking, strong willed, independant character, showing everyone respect. The men in our lives should be there because we want them to be so we can complement each other and live,laugh,work and love together.
Wether you call yourself a feminist or not I suppose depends on your interpretation of the word. In my family there were woman who were active in the Suffrogetes movement. Thank you to my aunties, they fought for my right to vote, I now think I have the responsibility to do so.

But would I call myself a feminist ?????

> not to mention if a man becomes a nursery teacher what is the immediate concern right now? with the tabaloid madness the instant thought is "gah!! paedophile!" which is ridiculous

My 5 year old neice has a male teacher who she thinks is great.  My brother and SL say he's a fantastic teacher but when my neice runs over to give him a hug he's not allowed to hug her back, he has to stand with his arms out to the side so the whole world can see he is not being 'innapropriate'.  It's very sad but it's for his own protection.  I'm not surprised there are so few male teachers for the younger children.

But this is the same with female teachers as well.. I think it is very sad that we can no longer show our natural affection to children.

I think I would still have to say I am an equal opportunist.  Or just make that opportunistic lol!  There must be a very good reason that so many youngsters have a negative association with the word feminism?  The same way as when someone says "animal rights" and you think of PETA. "Animal welfare" has far more positive associations.

I will not be called "partner" because I'm not in business with him.  See there again, it is my own association with the word.  Yes I am neurotic :-)

I think bilbobaggins is explaining me better :-)

>I think a lot of people think of a feminist as a "shout for my rights, we have to fight the boys, proove we are better than them etc etc."

My view of people who declare themselves to be feminists was formed by those self-proclaimed feminist Greenham Common protesters who, if you 'admitted' to being married and happy that way, wanted nothing to do with you. You were a traitor to The Cause. I'm all for equal 'rights' and equal opportunities, because that in itself acknowledges that traditional roles can be just as satisfactory as lifestyle choices.

Sorry Kim bit late posting on this but I think I'm the same as you! :) I love all things feminine & girly but I hate it when I'm treated diferently just because of my gender.  I find this always comes out when I'm buying a car or having work done to my car, if my OH is around they will always direct their conversation at him.  I was looking to buy a new car about 18 months ago & we went to a garage & I explained to the salesman I was looking to buy a car & he ignored me & asked my OH what type he was looking for!!! My OH corrected the guy straight away but the damage for me was already done, I walked out of the forecourt & will never go back.  I work in a small office amongest 3 guys, I'm the only female & I'm the manager & I still see the slight sign of shock in certain people (men & women!!) when I explain my position!!

I think it's sad in an age where the US have just elected the first African American president & racism is slowing being faded out that some people still think then men are the elite gender! & that some people still think feminist's are all like Germaine Greer & want to burn their bras!! Wake up it's the 21st century!!

Arrrgh!! Sorry rant over!  Just to clarify as my point may have got lost, I am a woman & I should never be treated any different because of that!!!! :)

Lol! Now if I was buying a car then I would be using my femininity to my advantage, as I have done on so many occaisions ;-)  Discounted prices are always a good thing in my book.  I have more of a problem with people using my age (and I look younger than my ancient 24 yrs) against me!

I can't stop laughing reading this thread - sorry Astarte, but when I went back to it's origins elsewhere on the forum it really tickled me.

FTR I'm with GCG on the equal opportunities position but labelling ourselves never mind anyone else as feminist or otherwise is IMO rather silly in the 21st century (not too smart in the 80's or 90's either).   My OH's company (heavy engineering work) was forced to take on female apprentices some years back - they knew it was never going to work but hey ho, go with the flow.  Sure enough these young women couldn't possibly cope with the same very physical work of their male counterparts and each over time decided to move onto different fields.    A large part of seeking equality is surely having the humility - or even just common sense! - to accept that men and women are not physically equal ....... 

Well balanced, self confident, open minded and generous of heart and spirit are better models for everyone to aim towards in the big wide world than theories indoctrinated into students as 'the right/only way' simply because there are books, thesis and lectures on same :)  Live life and learn from daily experiences, world news, celebrate the fascinating differences in ALL people, regardless of gender, age, race, culture. 

My advice to my own daughter (who has a Masters too) was don't buy into theories - learn from ever changing facts and be open to keep learning more.  It has stood her in good stead - dropping the classroom speak is a good starting point along with avoiding trying to educate everyone ;)

To Gembo, I've had the car showroom scenario before too - I put it politely but firmly that it's MY car so ME they should be addressing.  If that doesn't work then I equally politely advise they have lost a sale.  This IMO is a manners issue more than anything else - for eg, were I to accompany my daughter to look for a car for her, perhaps the sales team would be directing the hard sell towards me on the assumption that it would be me parting with the commission (whoops) price :-p

> I've had the car showroom scenario before too

But not so effective recently..........it is an age thing ;-(

>> Cant you be both?  I dont think I have to give up my girly feminine flirty side, just to be a feminist.   I can have both.

exactly :)

> I dont know if its the same there, as it is here, but if you say you are a feminist, it is also assumed you are gay, or a male basher.   So putting the label on here, can have some negative associations with it, that may or may not be true. 

yes, the stereotype is being a shaven headed lesbian who thinks bras are 'the chains of man'

i actually think of them as the saviours of my spine :)

> I think any body worth their salt, male or female, should be a free thinking, strong willed, independant character, showing everyone respect. The men in our lives should be there because we want them to be so we can complement each other and live,laugh,work and love together.
>

thats so true, a lovely sentiment :)

> In my family there were woman who were active in the Suffrogetes movement. Thank you to my aunties, they fought for my right to vote, I now think I have the responsibility to do so.
>

my thanks to them to, heroic women!

> I think a lot of people think of a feminist as a "shout for my rights, we have to fight the boys, proove we are better than them etc etc."
>
>
> But would I call myself a feminist ?????

thats the thing, the femenist theory (except in ceratin strands that very few adhere to) don't meet anything like the stereotype. i think if more 'normal' women applied the word to themselves this idea would change.

> There must be a very good reason that so many youngsters have a negative association with the word feminism? 

yes, propaganda and focus on extremist tendancies. its possible to be christian and not a member of the IRA or muslim and not want to blow people up. you can be a feminist and also be many other things. as i said i think if most (western) women, who are in fact feminists, called themselves such and people realised your not that their schemas say you should be then people will understand better.

you can be an equal opportunist but thats a catch all phrase. without knowing your political beliefs i can't say if that term would apply to you, but if you believe in womens rights and equality then you are a feminist, in this case its not about interpretation it is the actual word for it.

as to the business with partner i prefer it as i don't just associate it with business but with working together, i also feel that girlfriend/boyfriend sound rather childish for the relationship liam and i have, jmo.

> when I'm buying a car or having work done to my car, if my OH is around they will always direct their conversation at him.  I was looking to buy a new car about 18 months ago & we went to a garage & I explained to the salesman I was looking to buy a car & he ignored me & asked my OH what type he was looking for!!! My OH corrected the guy straight away but the damage for me was already done, I walked out of the forecourt & will never go back.  I work in a small office amongest 3 guys, I'm the only female & I'm the manager & I still see the slight sign of shock in certain people (men & women!!) when I explain my position!!
>

grrr. i would have said to the guy that i was the one looking for information and i was leaving because of his attitute (though in the case of cars i probably would let oh or my dad deal with it as i've not the foggiest lol)

> thats the thing, the femenist theory (except in ceratin strands that very few adhere to) don't meet anything like the stereotype. i think if more 'normal' women applied the word to themselves this idea would change.

Spot on kim :)

"I'm a girl, and by me that's only great!
I am proud that my silhouette is curvy,
That I walk with a sweet and girlish gait
With my hips kind of swivelly and swervy.

I adore being dressed in something frilly
When my date comes to get me at my place.
Out I go with my Joe or John or Billy,
Like a filly who is ready for the race!

When I have a brand new hairdo
With my eyelashes all in curl,
I float as the clouds on air do,
I enjoy being a girl!

When men say I'm cute and funny
And my teeth aren't teeth, but pearl,
I just lap it up like honey
I enjoy being a girl!

I flip when a fellow sends me flowers,
I drool over dresses made of lace,
I talk on the telephone for hours
With a pound and a half of cream upon my face!

I'm strictly a female female
And my future I hope will be
In the home of a brave and free male
Who'll enjoy being a guy having a girl... like... me.

When men say I'm sweet as candy
As around in a dance we whirl,
It goes to my head like brandy,
I enjoy being a girl!

When someone with eyes that smoulder
Says he loves ev'ry silken curl
That falls on my iv'ry shoulder,
I enjoy being a girl!

When I hear the compliment'ry whistle
That greets my bikini by the sea,
I turn and I glower and I bristle,
But I happy to know the whistle's meant for me!

I'm strictly a female female
And my future I hope will be
In the home of a brave and free male
Who'll enjoy being a guy having a girl... like... me."

This song comes from a musical "The Flower Drum Song" written in the 50s.

This was how most of us were brought up in the 50s, which, when you remember that our mothers worked/were conscripted in WWII - could have been army drivers/engineers, crane drivers, welders etc is a bit of a surprise!

Yes, I do consider myself a feminist - and I did actually go to Greenham Common - even if I was looked down with some scorn by some of the die-hard dungaree wearing "wimmin" there!   My OH and I brought up our four children (1 girl, 3 boys) up to believe that all of them were equal, and should divide responsibilities/chores equally - and they too are bringing their children up with the same views.

Oh - and I'll wear high heels and lipstick when the occasion is right!

I dont need to be tagged a feminist to make my way in a mans world. Ive been divorced twice (married three times). I have had to deal with patronising idiots who would ask me if my OH was at home when talking car purchase deal or house buying, it took me about 5 minutes to take my money elsewhere.

I am a Director of a construction company and the only female in 22. I have also run a Town Council for 12 years and been the only Town Clerk (female) to handle a Town of over 20,000 people.

I am now v. happily married (nearly 18 years) to a man who does not wish to compete with me nor I him, but in my youth I would cut off my nose rather than admit to a man I could not do something or other. Colin knows I hate spiders, will not change a bulb - I nearly died from an electric shock once and I am stubborn (That Taurus for you). I know he is patient, propably cleverer than me (but dont tell him) and has made "us" sucsessful. I do not want to live the rest of my life without him. He lets me get away with murder - I once brought myself a MGBGT sports car he was furious but we weathered it, I will not do that again, really pushed my luck that time.

I ask my employees to do something and they do, I absent myself from some beery work do's as I dont really drink and they can tell risque jokes easier without me around. I respect that they can dig a hole with a pick axe and shovel in all weathers - I could not now or ever I am too old and I can do a lot they cant, that includes telling them where to dig the hole and why!

I am thankful that women now do have a chance to get to the top of their professions, before when my Mum was around it was impossible. But I am not buring my bra for anyone, I'd have them around my waist and my underwires are fine thanks. I have never felt inferior to my brothers or husbands, am I a feminist, no. If I am out with collegues I will often wait until they open a door for me, they are usually there before me. I say thankyou when they do, thats good manners. My son's have I hope learnt good manners and they would never ever doubt that a women is a mans equal, but I am not superior to a man just equal.

But I need my husband to be my friend and complete my life so i am no feminist - funnily enough he and I are discussing a project today and he always asks what i want first, then tells me why it will not work, or accepts the alteration to his idea if mine is better were a partnership.

I also tend to design furnishings not in frilly pink but using textures and silks that are plain so he doesnt sleep in a pink frilly room or house he's look a right wally. I think a bit of give and take will get me a lot further than being antogonistic.

In the past I have had to negociate mortgages, ect and more them when i became a single Mum, That was a tough time. My family breed strong forthright women, so Dad(78 today) was one of 14 and his Mum was the boss. His wife (my Mum) handled all the money and backed Dad 100% so I had no choice than be as tough as I am, but having children mellowed the edges and I am possibly more femine now that I have ever been.

Great subject for a post though.

In my 30's I worked and my OH worked at home to start the business that then joined with my family business in 2001 when my Dad retired. I joined in 2002 when I "retired" from politic's. So from 1991 - 2001 I out earned and kept my husband.

If you take into consideration that I do a small pt time job as a Parish Clerk now I still do, but I keep that going so i can slip some money to my son's and he cant moan as its my money. Our joint money is in our joint account and my OH has a seperate account for odd monies from consultancy work that he does for his daughters and grand children to blow or on his precious fire engines that he collects. We dont share any children when we married we had 4 between us at 3,5,7 & 9 the two youngest my sons the two eldest his daughters, those were tough times I can tell you.

gembo absolutely with you all the way. I have now had 5 cars from the same garage I go in, do a deal and walk out again and they would never, ever ask about my OH.
If someone writes to me as Mrs C J  in the bin. I am Mrs V A in fact all my business cards, bank cards say Vivienne A. Im often asked is it Mrs or Miss and they get put in their place. Mrs means you are married no one asks a man if he is Master or Mr do they, makes my blood boil. Im Vivienne he is Colin and thats that I do not belong to him nor he me.

I was born in 1950's and went to Greenham Common saw The Stranglers there, but I was bought up by a strong female and that poem is the pits... But in my year at school about 90% had babies, had husbands and are grannies. My eldest is 23 I started late and I am in no hurry to be a Grandmother.