Hi

I know this has been discussed on here before but I wanted to get some up to date advice re Leptospirosis vaccines,incidence of disease etc.
I am very anti excess vaccinations.  I have all my puppies 1st jab done at 11 to 12 weeks old and then I titre 2 weeks later to see if the first vaccination has taken.. My take on this is : they are given 2 initial vaccinations mainly because the first may not take because of maternal antibodies, so they are then given a second as belt and braces. My vets regime is 8 and 10 weeks. So if they think the second at 10 weeks makes the puppy protected then surely one jab at 11/12 weeks should as well???? Am I right? I am happy to be corrected on this. My next question is..Do puppies definitely need 2 jabs of lepto to be covered? I read on here in a previous post that they do!!.
  Oh yes I then titre all my other dogs every year to check they are still covered for Parvo etc and act on the result

Now my other question is..I have read several times that the lepto jab only lasts for about 6 months,if that ! and only covers a couple of the strains, is that also true? And does anyone know of the incidence of lepto in the dog population?..Is it likely at all that they will get infected.Do all rats carry Lepto..sorry so many questions.

I have just found out we have a rat problem in our neighbouring fields where I walk my dogs,so I am now totally paranoid about my dogs catching lepto ,especially my 3 month old puppy,who just had the singular Vaccination.

I will be willing to give all my dogs a lepto jab if opinion shows it is worth it,but I am very concerned about this, because once again I read that especially in the US the lepto Jab gives most bad reactions.Don't know if that holds true over here.

I look forward to hearing from you experienced people

Thanks in advance
Rosie

Not sure of the initial puppy jabs as not looked into this part, but i have been speaking to my vet recently about the titre test and also a friend who attends the same vet.

The vet has said that Lepto needs boosting every year and even then its not totally covered for the whole year, he mentioned everything else can be done on the 3yearly. I asked about the titre test and he tried to waine me off this.
Titre test i think is worth thinking about except our vet charges for each thing rather than a bunch together, meaning it costs a lot lot more.

I know certain vets are open to new ideas and change, so others may have received or know different info on this..

I'm not sure i would play around with a young pup and vaccinations. I personally if i were to stop innoculating my dogs i would do the puppy rounds, the 1st year booster and then look at it from there.

Does no one else have any advice,knowledge to help me ??

> Does no one else have any advice,knowledge to help me

Not sure if this will help but here's my experience of Leptospirosis.

We always have the Lepto booster done every year - no titre testing. Many years ago a lady my Mum used to work for at her kennels lost a bitch and her whole litter because of Leptospirosis. Mum always had her own dogs vaccinated against it after that, but only ever had the intial course of everything else.

Wind forward a few decades: Leptospirosis also affects people. You can catch it from contaminated ponds, waterfalls etc. My daughter got it while she was on holiday. She spent a week in intensive care, another week on the ward, three months off work and around six months before she was properly recovered. Leptospirosis causes multiple organ failure in both dogs and people.

As a family we don't mess with Lepto, our dogs get the annual booster. And my daughter now stays out of waterfalls!

I dont do the lepto vaccine on my dogs.  Had a bad reaction with my moms dog (impish - my moms CD User Name).  She blew up like a balloon, to the point her skin was splitting.  It was horrible!  Cher also had a reaction to it, but less intense.  Just minor swelling, but I think it was partly because I was watching for it with her, with the bad reaction Casie had. 

In my area, aparently Lepto is pretty bad.  (Mind you I am Canadian, so of course not totally relevant to you).  But I have never had a problem not vaccinating the dogs. 

I too, heard that it doesnt last the whole year anyways. 

I have never given lepto to my dog before, but this morning a new vet gave to my dog.  I am sick with worry waiting for the vet to call me back.  I may never go to that vet again.  What can I expect?  And what can be done if he does have a reaction.  Henry is a minature Doxie? 

Has he had a bad reaction in the past?  If not, the most likely outcome is you will simply have a dog protected against leptospirosis.

What's a Doxie pls??

> What's a Doxie pls??

A Dachshund :)

> I have never given lepto to my dog before, but this morning a new vet gave to my dog.  I am sick with worry waiting for the vet to call me back.  I may never go to that vet again.  What can I expect?  And what can be done if he does have a reaction.  Henry is a minature Doxie? 

Did you leave Henry at the vet?
Did you give permission for the vaccination?
Why do you think Henry will react to the vaccination?

Thanks, never heard that one before! :-)

I thought all vaccines contained lepto? Certainly the vaccines we use at the surgery for pups and adults include lepto every year. Are you sure your dog has never had a lepto vacc? THis is the L part of the DHLPPI. I very much doubt you will see any signs of anything as most dogs are vaccinated against lepto yearly with no problems. Your vet was being responsible!

Think some parts are actually given separately?

I know this from experience as the Lepto part of the vaccine cannot be given to my 2 dogs at the moment as it would mess up their blood tests/health checks for when we emigrate to Australia.

Lepto is a separate vaccine from the DHP part, because Lepto is given annually but DHP only every three years.

> I thought all vaccines contained lepto?

False.  Not all vaccines contain Lepto.

> Your vet was being responsible!

That is debatable.

A Vet is not allowed to administer any drug or medical care with out permission from the owner. Only someone that has the legal power to over-ride the owner's decision can then a vet administers drugs/medical care. The only exception is if you're living in a country that has compulsory vaccinations.

If your dog was to have a reaction, it can be anything.  From swelling to cardiac arrest. 

Most common, is swelling or itching, but thats the same with all vaccines.  I just dont vaccinate for Lepto because of the reactions, and in the lines I have brought in, the reaction rate is pretty high. 

The reaction would be within the twelve hours, so if it is past that, I wouldnt worry. 

Not all dogs react to the vaccine, my ESS didnt.  Just the Min Pins.

Now before any vaccine is giving, we pre treat with Benidryll and Prednisone.  No reactions since, but I dont want to take the chance again! 

Yes i know its a seperate vaccine, but the protocol is to give lepto every year, so i can't see why if someone came in just asking for a booster why they wouldn't be given the lepto part unless they have specific reasons for asking not to have it such as moving to Australia or New zealand. How many people actually specify which parts they are having boostered or whose vets ask which parts they want before they have it done? The Nobivac protocol is DHLPPI every 3 years and LPI every year so why wouldn't you expect the vet to do it?

When we vaccinate our dogs, lepto is automatically given unless otherwise specified.
If you gave permission for your dog's booster, then its not the vets fault you are having doubts now. I wouldn't worry, like others have said unless you KNOW your dog will react, there's no reason why it shouldn't have it.

> so i can't see why if someone came in just asking for a booster why they wouldn't be given the lepto part unless they have specific reasons for asking not to have it such as moving to Australia or New zealand.

Other reasons not to give are adverse reactions. All vaccines state an animal has to be 100% healthy. Vets will vaccinate animals when they have ear, skin infections, upset stomach etc this goes against the manufacturers protocols/Contra-indications and should not be done. 1: As the vaccine may not take. And 2: The risk of adverse reactions.

> How many people actually specify which parts they are having boostered or whose vets ask which parts they want before they have it done?

Many clients do. A lot of vets are not happy with the current vaccine protocols and now offer titre testing before vaccinations and offer separate vaccinations.

> Vets will vaccinate animals when they have ear, skin infections, upset stomach etc this goes against the manufacturers protocols/Contra-indications and should not be done. 1: As the vaccine may not take. And 2: The risk of adverse reactions.

Every vet I have ever had has done a health check before giving a vaccine.  Of course, some may choose to vaccinate a dog against the protocols because they are never healthy due to some chronic condition but the risk of disease would actually be more severe to to them.  Not sure what this has to do with the issue of ommiting just the Lepto component though.

>A lot of vets are not happy with the current vaccine protocols and now offer titre testing before vaccinations and offer separate vaccinations.

Are they?  I would say this is more likely to be a response to some customers requests.  The BVA certainly recommend following the current regimes.
You say many people specify differently to the recommendations but, personally, I doubt it amounts to any significant proportion of pet owners.  I wonder if any of the members who work in veterinary surgeons can enlighten us on their experience of that?

Thats fine but if the vet was happy to vaccinate the dog then it was clearly healthy, which is why i asked the question. IF there was no reason NOT to vaccinate then you can't blame the vet for vaccinating when he was asked! Thats his job.
How do you know if its going to have a reaction without giving it? That seems like a stupid reason not to have it if there is no reason to believe the dog will react. I've never had a dog react to one. Any animal can react to any sort of drug or vaccine but thats not a reason to not give them if its in the best interests of the animal unless you have a strong reason you believe they will react.
In the 5 years i've worked in a vets i can count on one hand the number of clients who have asked for a specific vaccine and we've only ever had one titre test. Fair enough if you do choose to titre test but but unless you state that when you take the animal in asking for a booster then they aren't mind readers and are going to give a vaccine booster.
Reactions can happen with any vaccine, but if we all stop vaccinating just in case they might have a reaction (and have no real reason to believe they will reac, like previous history for example) then we will end up just like the we are now with measles, with this nasty disease making a big come back when it should have been eradicated.

> Every vet I have ever had has done a health check before giving a vaccine.  Of course, some may choose to vaccinate a dog against the protocols because they are never healthy due to some chronic condition but the risk of disease would actually be more severe to to them.  Not sure what this has to do with the issue of ommiting just the Lepto component though.
>

Vets may make the choice but they are going against the vaccine manufacturer's medical studies data and may put animal's health at risk both the animal being vaccinated and other animals as the vaccine may not take.

http://www.intervet.co.uk/Products_Public/Nobivac_Lepto2/090_Product_Datasheet.asp
Contra-indications, warnings, etc.
Only healthy dogs should be vaccinated.

Further information
A good immune response is reliant on the reaction of an immunogenic agent and a fully competent immune system. Immunogenicity of the vaccine antigen will be reduced by poor storage or inappropriate administration. Immunocompetence of the animal may be compromised by a variety of factors including poor health, nutritional status, genetic factors, concurrent drug therapy and stress.

The vaccine companies are more qualified to judge when to vaccinate. If the vets followed the vaccine manufacturer's advice then the animals and humans population may just be a bit more healthy possibly eradicate or keep diseases more in control.

> The vaccine companies are more qualified to judge when to vaccinate.

Do you think their research fellows are not vets too? 
When a dog is chronically ill the choice is no cover or cover that may or may not be effective depending on the nature of the illness.  The manufacturors, quite reasonably, place these choices outside their protocols as they are not the ones using their clinical assessment of the animal at the time.

> If the vets followed the vaccine manufacturer's advice then the animals and humans population may just be a bit more healthy possibly eradicate or keep diseases more in control.

I think the bigger threat to ever achieving that utopia is the lack of routine vaccination uptake.

> Do you think their research fellows are not vets too? 
> When a dog is chronically ill the choice is no cover or cover that may or may not be effective depending on the nature of the illness.  The manufacturors, quite reasonably, place these choices outside their protocols as they are not the ones using their clinical assessment of the animal at the time.
>

I trust the manufacturers research results by the manufacturers and those in the field more qualified than a vet who has never been involved in the products clinical studies. You never know one day they may produce a resonably safe vaccine that may last the life time of the animal.

This info may or may not be of interest to you.
http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/people/ronald%20d%20schultz
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/IVIS.pdf (pdf file)
http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/Baker_Can_Inf_Dis/bpd21/ivis.pdf (pdf file)

Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chairman of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine and is one of the world's leading authorities on veterinary vaccines research sates that vaccines last a lot longer than we are told. His research has shown:

Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines
Canine Distemper Virus (CDV    
Rockbom Strain 7 yrs / 15 yrs challenge / serology
Onderstepoort Strain 5 yrs / 9 yrs challenge / serology
Canine Adenovirus-2 (CAV-2) 7 yrs / 9 yrs challenge-CAV-1 / serology
Canine Parvovirus-2 (CAV-2) 7 yrs challenge / serology
Canine Rabies 3 yrs / 7yrs challenge / serology

NON-CORE VACCINES 
Canine parainfluenza 3 yrs. serology
Bordetella bronchiseptica 9 months challenge
Borrelia burgdorfen 1 yr. challenge
Canine Coronavirus Lifetime (whether vaccinated or not vaccinated) Challenge / serology

>Now my other question is. I have read several times that the lepto jab only lasts for about 6 months,

The canine lepto vac is reported to give immunity from 4 to 8 months, sometimes less, sometimes more.  The vac protocol is one vac every 12 months.

>And only covers a couple of the strains, is that also true?

Yes, two serovars, L. Icterohaemorrhagiae and L. Canicola

>And does anyone know of the incidence of Lepto in the dog population?..

According to Glasgow uni, very rare and not an easy disease to catch due to the fragile survivability rate of the servers ( it doesn't like extreme temperatures or live very long in concentrated urine, and needs water and tropical moist climates to flourish) but it can be a nasty disease if contacted.  Some dogs can be slightly off colour, other's can have debilitating disease.

>Do all rats carry Lepto...

L. Icterohaemorrhagiae is carried by rats and this one is found in the UK. 

L. Canicola is believed to be very rare in the UK, and this one is believed to be one most risky as the dog acts as the host.  That said, there are others such as L.Hardjo, associated with cattle  and L. grippotyphosa and L. pomona but as far as I know they are not included in the UK canine vaccine but I did hear that in the US, a vac will soon be available if not already on the market for L. grippotyphosa and L. pomona. 

High risk lifestyle are association with stagnant water such as cattle drinking water, canals or rivers, drinking from puddles beside rivers, ponds etc, etc.

>I have all my puppies 1st jab done at 11 to 12 weeks old and then I titre 2 weeks later to see if the first vaccination has taken. My take on this is: they are given 2 initial vaccinations mainly because the first may not take because of maternal antibodies, so they are then given a second as belt and braces. My vets regime is 8 and 10 weeks. So if they think the second at 10 weeks makes the puppy protected then surely one jab at 11/12 weeks should as well???? Am I right? I am happy to be corrected on this.

Absolutely right; they give 2 vacs in case the material antibodies interfere with the 1st jab.  The older the pup is, the more likely it is that the material antibodies have waned so one jab should suffice.   However, the risk here is that we can't really tell how long it takes for the maternal antibodies to wane in each individual so if the vac is left too long, i.e., the gap between material antibodies waning and vac could leave pup unprotected.  Ideally, one should titre pre vac and titre 2 weeks post vac to determine the immune response as it is this that protects the dog, not the number of circulating antibodies at a given point in time however, it is not always practical to do this.

> I trust the manufacturers research results

So would I :-) Protocols will always be set at the smallest parameters, though, because they will obviously not want to be responsible for clinical decisions made in their absence but that is not to say that it is inappropriate for a vet, like a doctor, to use their clinical judgement beyond that.
I am familiar with Dr Schultz's studies.  If you use the search you will find his work has been discussed many times.  For a leading authority he does not appear to publish very much does he? 

> For a leading authority he does not appear to publish very much does he? 

Do you have any recent links/research papers that discredit this mans research?

Exactly, i trust the manufacturers when they say that healthy animals should be vaccinated against lepto every year and every 3 years for the full vaccine, unless you specifically titre test, so really we are singing from the same hymn book.
I'm with Isabel when she says that the biggest threat is the lack of vaccine uptake.

No.  I have never seen any peer reviews but the general public do not usually have access to professional publications.  Have you?  He does not seem to be publishing anything much according to his own web page.

> No.  I have never seen any peer reviews but the general public do not usually have access to professional publications.  Have you? 

America are rather good at allowing the public to view papers, you should hunt around on the search engines.

>He does not seem to be publishing anything much according to his own web page.

A lot of websites do not update frequently I wouldn't question or discredit someone's work due to this. If you dig deeper you will find his research along with others that did help change states vaccine protocals.

>A lot of websites do not update frequently

It is dated 2009

>If you dig deeper you will find his research along with others that did help change states vaccine protocals.

This is not new stuff to me Katt :-)  If you have any recent work to show then go ahead.  I really don't know if he has contributed to the latest protocols.  They certainly do not appear to coincide with his recommendations.  I rather think they will be licenced according to the manufacturers own data.

> so really we are singing from the same hymn book.
>I'm with Isabel when she says that the biggest threat is the lack of vaccine uptake.

As a pet owner the goal should be to vaccinate less with vaccines that are safer and last the life time of the animal.

In my opinion it is about time the UK put a ban on the yearly core vaccine this way vets will have no choice to use the three year core vaccine.

> It is dated 2009
>

If you where a website designer you would know that the © Copyright 2009 is applied only in txt to retain Copyright, this does not mean that the webpage content has been updated :) The website content has not been changed for some time.

> If you have any recent work to show then go ahead. 

Yes I do but as I have found with you, you do find fault or go out your way to dismiss/discredit rather than admit those involved are more qualified than you or I. This was not said to disrespect you but dealing with you in the past has proved this each time. Thank God they are those qualified in the field attempting to find a solution for our animal friends. In the mean time I hope people question and push those in the field to come up with a vaccine that will provide immunity for the lifetime of the animal.

>I really don't know if he has contributed to the latest protocols.  They certainly do not appear to coincide with his recommendations.  I rather think they will be licenced according to the manufacturers own data.

The new protocols where brought in collectively agreed by research, the vaccine companies, and states animal health services. One of the fears they had was people may stop vaccinating or forget to vaccinate this is another reason why three years was agreed.

> The website content has not been changed for some time.

If you worked in accademia I think you would find that quite unusual.  Accademic posts are generally held on the understanding you will publish regularly.

> you do find fault or go out your way to dismiss/discredit rather than admit those involved are more qualified than you or I.

Isn't that what you are doing for the opposing opinion ? :-)

> The new protocols where brought in collectively agreed by research, the vaccine companies, and states animal health services.

Presumably you mean the BVA in the case of the UK.  The vaccine companies may well have consulted them and other accademic bodies ( I assume that is who you mean by "research") but it is the vaccine company that apply for a licence for their drugs so it is they that set the protocol for their use.

> If you worked in accademia I think you would find that quite unusual.  Accademic posts are generally held on the understanding you will publish regularly.
>

Not always on websites it depends if the webmaster updates. The website in question was placed on Mar 24, 2004 updated yearly only with site ©.

If you check below Champdogs Powered by mwForum 2.12.1 © 1999-2007, this page is automatic updated by us.

> Isn't that what you are doing for the opposing opinion ?

As I've stated many times I am for vaccinating but not over vaccinating and for vets to keep udated and follow manufacturer's advice.

> Presumably you mean the BVA in the case of the UK.  The vaccine companies may well have consulted them and other accademic bodies ( I assume that is who you mean by "research") but it is the vaccine company that apply for a licence for their drugs so it is they that set the protocol for their use.

No I am talking about the change in America.

Wonderful though Champdogs is it is not accademia  :-)  Is he still in post I wonder.

> As I've stated many times I am for vaccinating but not over vaccinating and for vets to keep udated and follow manufacturer's advice.

I don't know what we are disagreeing about then :-)  Although I think those that do not follow manufacturers protocols are few and far between.

> No I am talking about the change in America.

Oh! We have enough to worry about in the UK.  Let them sort their own protocols out. :-)

> Wonderful though Champdogs is it is not accademia  :-)  Is he still in post I wonder.

He is currently doing a rabbies challenge :)

> I don't know what we are disagreeing about then :-)  Although I think those that do not follow manufacturers protocols are few and far between.

Wow we are agreeing for once lol :)
You would be surprised how many do not, a swift kick up the bottom may help them *wink*

> Oh! We have enough to worry about in the UK.  Let them sort their own protocols out.

LOL well when america do things we are often not far behind :)

Isabel I suppose we should get back on topic but I do wonder why the person has not returned. I do hope the dog and owner is well.

Does you or anyone else have a update?

Thanks for the info Katt, I always have an open mind as regards my pets health.  A scientist friend of mine says that scientists can prove the world is flat when we all know it is round.  I am not criticising the work they do just keeping an open mind which is my human right.