just wanted to say that my family (when im at work) take my 2 dogs out together on halters and they both pull, bark and set each other off, whether they see a cat or not. someone told me they couldnt walk their dogs together but they were fine alone so i thought we would give it a try. they walkd one and then the other afterwards and they were good as gold! no pulling or barking. the only thing i was wondering is, will they stay this good or get naughty once they get used to going individually? talk about power of the pack! it never crossed my mind to try them seperately and one is 6 and the other 4! dum dum

I have 3 bitches, aged 8, 4 and 9 months.  All have been started off walking alone with me to learn their manners and everything else that's required, then they were taken out together when they were well behaved on and off the lead outside.  With the youngest one I did try to take her out with the others when she was tiny but she behaved like a DEMON!!!  wanted to run everywhere and when she couldn't would scream like she was being murdered - proper tantrums   So she was walked alone until she was well behaved too - no tantrums on her own ;) ;)  then I trained her to walk with only one of the others at a time, now I can walk all 3 together nicely, side by side :-D

It's likely that your second dog learned to pull and bark from the oldest one :(   It may be possible to retrain them but will take time ;)

Have you read 'Cesar's Way' or 'Be the Pack Leader'? Both brilliant books, and completely transformed my relationship with my dogs. The walk is a LOT about the energy you project. Seriously...I always struggled to walk my two together by myself until I read his books. Literally overnight, I changed the experience from being a 'drag' (!) to a pleasant stroll. Admittedly, my partner looks at me weird when I walk down the street with head up, shoulders back chanting to myself 'cesar milan, cesar milan'! BUT it works! As soon as my shoulders start to sag and I start looking around for cats/dogs that may set them off, they start pulling again. But all it takes is for me to stop, gather myself together and stride off again focussed and in controll. (ok, so Cesar doesn't promote chanting his name like a mantra...but it works for me!). If I take this approach, we can walk past any distractions without any trouble. Both their noses are off the floor, focussed straight ahead just like me. The male doesn't even stop to mark until they're off their leads!

However, if anyone else tries to walk them together without the 'head up, shoulders back' approach, they're back to square one. I think it's definately a case of the handler needs training more than the dogs. If I walk out the door with 'weak' energy, there's nothing I can do. The dogs know it and react accordingly, making the walk a misery! However, if I walk out positively and in control, the dogs trust I know what I'm doing and respond appropriately.

There's obviously a lot more to it than just the walk. The books show you how to re-evaluate your relationship with your dogs in the house, which has a knock on effect on how much they trust you on the  walk.

Give the books a go, even if just from a library. They honestly made the world of difference to us!

I have to agree with you, I know a lot of people disapprove of Cesar and his ways, but I find a lot of what he says very informative and useful.

My OH is particularly taken with him and is reading all of the books gradually.
He walks all 5 of our dogs (age range 9months to 10 years) and does it the Cesar way, they walk perfectly for him, we even get comments when we're out on how he manages to control 5. Even when we have them off lead they will return to him when called, whereas they take more persuasion with me especially if there's lots of crows about

We practice the calm attitude with them and it works well for us.

thanks for that but i have tried walking like that and it doesnt work, i think even cesar would have a job they are so headstrong/stubborn

you can't 'pretend' to be calm and assertive... you have to really feel it inside for it to work. If I'm having a bad day and I take them out 'pretending' to be in control, it falls to pieces! And like I said, it's a lot more than just the walk. There may well be other really minor issues in the house that need addressing first. It's always going to be harder with two dogs, as they'll be competing against each other and feeding off each other. If they KNOW you're in control, they just naturally fall into place beside you, forgetting about the other.

Cesar's Way never worked for my 4 year old GSD, who I had from a puppy. I just resigned myself to the fact that she just could not walk properly (and I took FULL responsibility for it!). However, we then took on a 14 month old GSD x who had received NO form of education, training and socialisation. His owners told us that if they tried to walk him, he would drag them under cars, after buses/prams/bikes/cats/dogs/litter/his own shadow. I thought 'what am I doing??'. But i took him out for his first walk, completely the Cesar Way and by the time I got home, I didn't even need a lead on him!!! I thought, if I can do it for him, what about my other girl? So I went straight home, filled with confidence and took her out. Same thing! I was completely gobsmacked! I had 'tried' it so many times before, but deep down we both knew my heart wasn't really in it. I had always had in my mind 'she's going to pull...as soon as we get round the corner, there will be a cat and she'll pull'. But when I had such success with Troy, she KNEW I had it down pat. We haven't looked back since!

Trust me, if Cesar came along, your dogs would know who's boss and would behave impeccably! I always said that Cesar could never manage my girl...but now I don't need him to!

I do not pretend to be a qualified dog trainer. But there is a lot to be said about forgetting about the past and starting a new leaf. I could quite easily have taken Troy for that first walk and thought 'well, he's going to pull so I better brace myself...' but I didn't. I would imagine that you and your family go out the door thinking the same thing, even if you pretend to be walking upright. I bet you all tense up as soon as you walk out the door, and that goes straight down the lead.

Of course, I know that different people have different dogs and different styles. Cesar's way won't work for everyone. I know I had given up on it, because my head wasn't in the right place. After reading through the books though, it all made sense and fell into place. I would just highly recommend that you find a copy to read before you decide its not for you. The show is good...but it doesn't work in practice (for me any way) without the book!

I take it you use the "Illusion"under the ears collar pulled tight with the stopper up under the ears-dogs will walk to heel because the the acute pain they are in.

I train my puppies to walk to heel off lead at home long before they can go out on to the streets & my dogs don't pull because they have never learn to. Even older dogs that have been taught to pull by their previous owners are easy to reteach with using compulsion & domination-this includes several older GSDs I've taken on.

I don't need to pay CM for the privilege of reading his somewhat boring one size fits all books to be able to educate my dogs.

My dogs don't need a boss they have their own pack order, I'm a human & they know that & so no way can I be the"pack"leader. I'm the provider & we have mutual respect for each other as well as very close bonds

There you go, I told you a lot of people don't like his idea's, I knew one would be along soon.

By the way I don't use Illusion collars.
Just calm, kind and firm

Well you are not using his methods correctly then ;-)

no, i don't use the illusion collar, or choke or head collar or anything else like that. I know what you mean about some of his methods, and I don't use anything physical on my dogs. As I said in my post, I can walk them without a lead now, so I don't have their collars yanked up around their ears!

Ideally, all puppies should be taught from an early age how to walk properly, but some of us fail to do that. I failed with my girl, and have vowed never to let that happen again. However, the books do give some useful insight on how and why dogs behave the way they do. All I'm saying is that the things I learned completely changed my relationship with my dogs for the better, and if anyone else can have that same benfit then I think they should. I also said that obviously Cesar isn't for everyone, and I respect that. Even I don't agree with some of the things he says.

I obviously touched a nerve, and I didn't mean too. I am just so pleased with how well it worked for me, that I wanted someone else to benefit too. I should have been more diplomatic, and I apologise.

Like Nitody we use the bits we like and that work for us.
He gives useful ideas and tips that we find helpful

Sadly what you don't see in the programs or DVDs & it is not mentioned in the books is how the dogs are treated in preparation for the"training" I have several American friends who have insider knowledge & all I say a lot of"conditioning" is done, by the assistants & CM prior to him "working his magic"

He has no Border Collies in his pack, his herding training consists of a shepherd allowing his sheep to be chased by high prey drive dogs that have had no prior access to sheep in a controlled situation where the sheep cannot be harmed, he exercises dog s to exhaustion on tread mills(was taken to court over that practice)to show exercise calms dogs(it doesn't it simply exercises them). Watch his dogs body language most of the time their tails are down & they avoid eye contact, they lip lick a lot-classic signs of dogs under stress

There are lots of things wrong with his theories(he bases them all on wolf behaviour)Wolves do not run for hours on end to hunt, they track & short chase to the kill-so cycling for hours with the dog along side running without breaks is not good exercise.

Humans do not need to dominate dogs & dogs do not endeavour to dominate humans-they have no need to. Truly dominant dogs do not have to do much more than a look or a low growl to control the others & most people do not know which of their dogs is the most dominant

He is a showman however & his ghost writers have done a good job on his books to make them easy reading !

> I take it you use the "Illusion"under the ears collar pulled tight with the stopper up under the ears-dogs will walk to heel because the the acute pain they are in.
>

mm its needlessly harsh to make such assumptions/accusations about people. have you read any of his books? i have as many concerns about him as you but having read one of his books i did take some positive info from it, like his opinions on the walk as the others were discussing. during his discussion of it he does not mention in any way any pain causing action but rather discusses the attitude you exude and how you should focus on a target and in so doing focus your attitude better.

my behaviourist agrees that his methods are in general extremely questionable but he also mentioned that he likes that he teaches you how to walk with a problem dog. and i emphasise the you rather than the dog.

edited to add: any trainers take can be of use provided it is taken in context and is not the only view you examine. i think that dog training/re training should be a buffet rather than a la cart. no ones work is gospel.

> I obviously touched a nerve, and I didn't mean too. I am just so pleased with how well it worked for me, that I wanted someone else to benefit too. I should have been more diplomatic, and I apologise.

There's no need to appologise for trying to share something that worked for you. You haven't advocated aversive methods - simply calm, assertive energy :) I know what you mean, calm assertive energy & reward based training is what I swear by too.
My dog knows who are only 'pretending' to be confidant around him, even strangers. I can guess what strangers we meet are comfortable around big dogs simply by how Buster reacts to them, if he goes all stupid & wiggly I know they aren't comfortable (I beleive that this is a 'calming' signal?), if they are confident he will sit calmly :) This has nothing to do with me (or anybody else) dominating him, they can pick up on how we are feeling.

Cesar is not popular here atall because of his shows, some of his methods are questionable, especially as he has shown that he can reform dogs without the aversives. I have read one of his books and have taken a lot from it. A 'pack leader', to me, is the one responsible for providing rules, food, shelter & safety, you don't have to be a dog for your own dog to see you in that role (IMO).

> have you read any of his books

Yes I have I've read them all, but not bought them(I know someone who thinks he is a god !)

His body language is always that of domination, the way he walks, the way he stands, the way he approaches dogs. i don't have submissive dogs, I have biddable dogs, living with dogs that are constantly submissive means the dogs have no quality of life.

I haven't read it yet, but a friend of mine sent me a Swedish dog magazine recently. In it are several pages on CM and why he and his methods should be avoided at all costs. That's the second time I've seen something like that, the first time was in the Swedish KC's own magazine. I dare say there are far, far more people that disagree with everything he stands for, than have been tricked into believing he actually knows anything about dogs............

living with dogs that are constantly submissive means the dogs have no quality of life.

Agree 100 % MM.

> His body language is always that of domination, the way he walks, the way he stands, the way he approaches dogs. i don't have submissive dogs, I have biddable dogs, living with dogs that are constantly submissive means the dogs have no quality of life.

who advocated that here though? people were talking about his views on the walk not alpha rolls or violent collars so assuming that because someone can take one point of view from them they adhere to the complete doctrine including violence is extremely unfair.

> who advocated that here though?

>Admittedly, my partner looks at me weird when I walk down the street with head up, shoulders back chanting to myself 'cesar milan, cesar milan'

>But i took him out for his first walk, completely the Cesar Way and by the time I got home, I didn't even need a lead on him!!!

His walk is very dominant hence his dogs walk tails down, not allowed to stop for a pee etc etc etc

I never mentioned Alpha rolls at all & the key to "The Walk"is that slip lead up under the ears

i disagree, i never took the walk as dominant, just confident and focused. when you have a dog, such as mine, who suffers from nerves managing to get yourself in a mental place that speaks of confidence is helpful.

clearly those posters discussing it took the same thing from it. no one has mentioned dragging a dog around with the collar up at the ears or anything like it.

its possible to take the basics of an idea and tone them down.

ive been useing ceasers way to walk my dog and in day to day life
she used to be quite diffucult to manage but now she is alot more carmer genrally a hell of a lot more social in all situations all because of me being more carm and assertive with her she isnt unhappy

when u c ceaser with the dogs he is never cruel to them just firm, i think dogs should respect ppl and not be all in your face but then thats just the way i think
i try and be carm and assertive in my job and find it does work i like his methord of blocking i use that alot like if the dogs are trying to get off the table or running around i will block them and make them carm down

its like today i went to the dogs trust and there was a collie x thing going mad at the window barking and so on io just stood in front of the window all carm and assertive she looked at me and stoped

i will carry on useing his way proberley for the rest of my life as i have never seen anyone else deal with dogs as well as he does would love to meet him one day 

>> when u c ceaser with the dogs he is never cruel to them just firm

So you approve of the use of e collars, pinch collars, illusion collars, none of these are firm they impose pain on the dogs.

> its like today i went to the dogs trust and there was a collie x thing going mad at the window barking and so on io just stood in front of the window all carm and assertive she looked at me and stoped

Wow you just stood there the other side of the window & hands on hips imposed your will on the dog ? Or did you ignore the barking etc & the dog stopped ?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, I use T Touch to calm dogs, I never have problems with reading dogs body language, I can see the dogs cured by CM, on TV & the DVDs, close down, the light goes out of their eyes, they lip lick, I've also seen the conditioning done with the dogs before CM even sees them, also the finger poking(his so called bite)reinforced by the use of the pinch collar or illusion collar. the dog is therefore conditioned by the pain to stop the behaviour. He really should employ a better editor for some of his programs, as the cuts to omit the "corrections"are plainly obvious

This discussion will go round & round & round. If you love CM you love him & if you don't like his(IMHO crude & outdated)one size fits all methods you will never like him.

What finished me, was that poor Chinese Crested, that he took from Mexico to his"rehabilitation centre"without any veterinary checks, he then allowed his pack to bully, poke & push the little dog around, tried to force it to swim in a bowl & generally fail totally to read the dogs body language-which quite clearly showed the poor thing was in severe pain & distress. After a month it was tatken to the vet, where they "discovered"it had end stage renal failure, severe neurological problems & was also blind, the dog died shortly after being returned to Mexico. It was truly revealing about his lack of true knowledge & understanding of the canine psyche & behaviour

> no acctually u stupid cow the dog was going crazy at my friends little boy so i put myself between him and the window and she bloody stopped and i was in a carm and assertive manner
> there is no need to make ppl feel stupid thank you very much its getting a bit bloody personal

I'm not stupid(well not according to MENSA) I don't use personal abusive language either.

The dog would not have been reacting to your"calm assertive manner"but reacted to no longer being able to see the child. I've dealt with a good few GSDs & BCs who have had problem with children(especially small ones)usually after being ill treated & I didn't need to follow CMs dominance based treatment nor did I have to use "flooding"either

BTW I'm not the only one who consider his methods outdated etc

Personal abuse is against the terms of service. Please refrain from using it.

>no acctually u stupid cow
>its getting a bit bloody personal

It certainly is. :-(

Whatever you might think of Moonmaiden's posts there's no need to use such language. If you can be so calm in front of a barking dog (especially with a window between you and it) you can surely be equally calm here.

so perfect eh moonmaiden oh well whatever

mollaholland there is no need for comments like that. i'd suggest you refrain from them as admin don't take kindly to them.

mm, you have been rather heated about this, your comments have been variously sharp or sarcastic to people and at times accusitory without foundation. i'm sure we all appreciate your feelings on cesar milan, he's not exactly my favorite person either, but others are entitled to their more positive view of him or to at least take something from him.

its a discussion board, not a slagging match.

im sorry if wat i said has upset ppl just felt i was being personal attacted for no reason

some interesting links here about Cesar Milan

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?_r=1&ex=1157774400&en=28f8341afaf73bf9&ei=5070&emc=eta1

and about "TV dog training" in general

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/TVdogtrainers.html

(that last link is actually really worth reading, no matter what your personal feelings on Milan are.

Ooops, sorry ,moonmaiden had already used the same link as me.

Great links Stavs, thank~you for sharing those :)
I love this (taken from article 3) >He's a charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior and in developing nonpunitive, reward-based training programs<
;)

The experienced dog owner can 'Cherry pick' the positive from CM's methods as the posters here have shown, but my concern is the novice if recommended CM will follow it to the letter..... and may prove extremely detrimental to both owner and dog and impact on others they encounter (dog and human) :(

Another one. Ian Dunbar V Cesar Milan

http://dogtime.com/cesar-millan-and-ian-dunbar.html

> The experienced dog owner can 'Cherry pick' the positive from CM's methods as the posters here have shown, but my concern is the novice if recommended CM will follow it to the letter..... and may prove extremely detrimental to both owner and dog and impact on others they encounter (dog and human) :-(

very well put.

i think that much/most of cesar milans work is questionable but some of his ideas when calmed down a tad can be helpful.

I "cherry pick" bits from CM - the rollerblading with my dogs for example :-)  I actually never thought about it until I saw him do it.

ROFLMAO

What is that saying"Wise men think the same & fools seldom differ" :-D

> There are lots of things wrong with his theories(he bases them all on wolf behaviour)Wolves do not run for hours on end to hunt, they track & short chase to the kill-so cycling for hours with the dog along side running without breaks is not good exercise.

Cesars bases his theories on dog pack behavior (he grew up on a farm with dogs) not wolf packs.

There are breeds of dog that would happily take a lot of heavy exercise, then there are breeds of dog (ie my dog!) that would rather go for a short plod, I don't see how the exercise taken by a wolf can be used as a guidline for our dogs?
Cesar advises 45 min walk every morning I have never heard/read of him advising serveral hours of cycling with a dog with no breaks?

In his seminars he refers to the studies made on wolf packs & then goes on to the farm he allegedly grew up on with a dog pack(which presumably consisted of an Alpha pair & all their related offspring for him to have created his domination theory & pack leader)All his background is anecdotal BTW

He also advocates running dogs on a tread mill for 3 /4 + of an hour plus at a time(something that also is not natural)

He does not allow the dogs any breaks at all not to sniff or have a pee etc

He does not give any guidance regarding the ages of the dog & the length of the "walk"it is all dogs need 45 minutes every day as a minimum requirement.

On one program he takes a dog out running on the road beside him of a cycle & with him holding the lead(rather than using a "Springer" or similar)the time lapse from start to finish is well over an hour & at the end the dog is clearly distressed. Not only is the act of holding one dog or more by the lead whilst riding a cycle is dangerous but to do so on a road with traffic is downright stupid

i stopped reading his book when he said he jogged his pack for 4 hours a day! who has that kind of time? sorry not me!

>> no acctually u stupid cow
>

How very rude :-(

I'd just like to say that having seen Cesar's programs and coupled with the info my OH has gleaned from his books, we now regularly practice Alpha Rolls, we use Pinch and Prong collars and we use the side kick to the haunches, we drag our dogs when lead walking and show no affection, we dominate them totally.

We do not have a grey cell to rub together between us, we are only able to handle one method of training dogs.

I would like to add that if a man has an upright stance and walks with shoulders square and chest out in a purposeful manner why should he be considered an aggressive evil beast.  To me he exudes confidence which can only serve to reassure the dogs.

> In his seminars he refers to the studies made on wolf packs & then goes on to the farm he allegedly grew up on with a dog pack

Ahh, I see. I've haven't been to one of his seminars nor do I know anybody who has. I didn't know he used the 'wolf pack' theroies.

>He does not give any guidance regarding the ages of the dog & the length of the "walk"it is all dogs need 45 minutes every day as a minimum requirement.

No he doesn't does he, I had totally missed that point as I'm aware I should only exercise my dog within his limits (limits from fitness/age). Anybody taking his word as 'gospel' for thier dog, no matter what age/fitness etc could easily be ruining thier dogs development and running it into the ground :(

However, the books do give some useful insight on how and why dogs behave the way they do.

Unfortunately a lot of his explanations of dog behaviour are plain wrong!

Vera

> will they stay this good or get naughty once they get used to going individually?

tina s, I found that once my youngest learnt what was expected on a walk he would behave like that even when a bit distracted by my older dog.  Likewise the older dog continues to behave nicely as he has always done.  Teach them your 'rules' of walking and they shouldn't forget but you may need to up the treat level a little just to keep them from getting too distracted in the beginning.  They should settle quite quickly when they get back together.

nitody makes a good point about confident walking - it doesn't matter where she learnt it - striding out with a positive attitude is good for you and your dogs.  If your dogs are a bit inclined to watch for cats or get distracted by any passer by, smell, lampost or clump of grass it's a good idea to start your walk at a faster pace.  Be brisk and jolly them along til you get to whatever you're aiming at - whether that's a place to stop and pee or a field for free running.  Once you've arrived they can mooch about, sniff or play to their hearts content.

I tend to stick to the principle of a brisk walk to the 'leads off spot', a good length of time doing the more interesting bits of the walk, then a slower sniff everything stroll on the way back.  If I suspect distractions up ahead, for us it's usually the free range chickens or 'poodle point' (standards flinging themselves at the fence!) I just up the pace and don't acknowledge them.  At most I just need a 'leave it' command so mine don't stare or stalk :)