Hoping for some advice here: I've been to see a litter just before Christmas and will be picking up our pup from the breeder in the next week or so. This is an older pup of 15 weeks who has not yet been vaccinated (I posted an earlier thread about this, thanks for all the recommendations--my dog is now boostered as suggested). My question now is really about the rights I have as a new owner. Obviously I will be taking this pup straight to the vet for his vaccination, but in a worst case scenario--e.g. the pup's exposure to virus resulting in expensive veterinary care--should I be asking the breeder to agree to share vet fees? What time period should this cover?

I want to stress that I am not looking for problems where they don't exist, only that I want to be clear about a fair level of expectation on both sides.

I would suggest that you discuss this with the breeder. Will the breeder be providing you with 6 weeks insurance - this doesn't actually cost the breeder anything if they use the KC insurance, or that provided by companies such as Pet Plan.

Personally I would be concerned that the pup has not already had its injections.  Has the breeder given you a reason for this?  It's in one of my breed club's codes of ethics that pups should be given their injections after a designated age (well, it was before the KC started messing about with Codes of Ethics!)

I'd have thought if the breeder hasn't bothered to get the pup vaccinated by 15 weeks, the chances of them taking any sort of responsibility after sale are pretty slim?

M.

> should I be asking the breeder to agree to share vet fees?

As you knowingly bought the pup without cover, I would say not.

Nope, but suspicious why the breeder hasn't had the pup vaccinated at such a late age.  Some breeds are not very good at going at such a late age either, I'm hoping that this may be a toy breed?

I've never looked closely at the KC puppy insurance smallprint, but with PetPlan it states that if the puppy sold is 10 weeks old it must have had its first vaccination, if it is 12 weeks old or above it must have had BOTH -so if an unvaccinated puppy caught parvo or distemper etc it would then not be covered by the insurance.

Well the KC 6 weeks wont cover illness anyway only accident, one of my pups sadly died from bloat and KC said it wouldnt be covered.

Hope this helps, but i doubt your pup will get anything anyway good luck with her/him.

Louise

thanks perrodeagua, this is a WSS, not a toy breed

I'd really want to know why the breeder hasn't vaccinated the pup.

After it reached 10 weeks of age and not yet been homed I would have expected them to vaccinate the pup-p so it's vaccinations were complete at 12 weeks.

It should by 15 weeks have had the benefit of some 2 weeks outside socialisation in busy environments that included other canines than the ones it has grown up with.

By 16 weeks the pup should have been exposed to the wider world otherwise it may have difficulties with coping with life.

hello ridgielover, I have just had a look at the WSSC club code of conduct which says that pups must be fully vaccinated before being sold for export, but nothing about being sold within the UK. 

Thanks for this Barbara--when I went to see the pups in mid-December I was shown three pups, two of which were whelped 28/08/07 and an older pup of 6 or 7 months, this one being one of a pair the breeder had brought on before deciding to keep the bitch and sell on the dog. With the breeder's consent I took my own dog up to see how he got on with them.

I don't want to be unfair to anyone here--I will say that in my opinion the older pup appeared to be insufficiently socialised (with human beings in particular) and very bonded to his litter sister and so was not an option for me. When I asked about vaccinations for the little ones I was simply told that this hadn't been done--presumably in the expectation of both going to new homes before ten weeks, but as you point out the pups were already 16 weeks old when I saw them. It's my own lack of experience to blame here.

The pre-Christmas timing hasn't helped--I didn't want to bring a new pup into an unusually busy household and knowing that we'd be going away for a week I wanted to leave him where he was. With hindsight we could have arranged for the pup to start his vaccinations. The agreement to take him is verbal so far and although money has not yet changed hands I would understand this to be a contract. I am not by nature a time-waster and don't want to let anyone down, but am I doing the right thing in proceeding? If we wait for the pup to be fully vaccinated he would be 20-21 weeks old and I am concerned about his ability to settle easily with another dog--if we take him right away he has no immunity to potentially fatal illnesses and could even be uninsurable if I have correctly understood some of the other posts.

To be perfectly honest i would walk away now, you will be being a timewaster and whatelse but thats not the most important thing. My puppies would be vaccinated at 8 weeks whether they were staying with me or not, as you say 20 weeks for his first socialisation trip is very late, most will start theirs at 10 weeks so you have lost those precious ten weeks and its a long time! Plus if the older pup wasnt very socialised this one will probably be the same. Im sure you will find another pup that you are fully happy with and wont have to compramise on health or better judgement.

Louise

It is the breeders responsibility to properly rear puppies until they move to new homes.  this includes appropriate socialisation for age and health care that goes with it.

You have already seen that the older pup was not well socialised so the chances of your pup having had a great deal of socialisation by now seems slim, especially when you add to this the lack of vaccinations.

I WOULD RUN A MILE.

If nothing else while people are willing to take a pup in these circumstances it will not encourage the breeder to do things properly.

I think both Brainless and LouiseDDB have made very good postings  - I would take Louise's advice and walk away now.  Very hard I know but I would have major issues about buying a puppy of this age.  Your dog is a long term commitment and it needs to be the right in the first place.

> I would have major issues about buying a puppy of this age

Nothing wrong with buying a puppy of this age,a nd not that uncommon in my breed where the number of litters and puppy buyers is finely balanced, and if several litters or the same sexes are born close together some will wait longer to be homed.

The point is to be sure the pup has been well socialised and had the training and care it should have by that age.

A Friend of mine had 3 dogs pups to that age last year.

They wee fully vaccinated, had received extensive socialisation, including walks, going to the Free range poultry farm where the owner worked, meeting other animals and dogs.  The result owners with pups with a real head start and hardly any trouble quickly house trained, already quite well mannered etc.

This would not appear to be the case with the breeder referenced in the OP post.

Thanks everyone for your tremendous response and very professional advice--it goes to show how much I have to learn and also how easy it is to make errors of judgment under these circumstances. I deliberately didn't go alone so that I'd have someone to talk through any decisions, and even then it wasn't enough. I feel ashamed I've wasted these people's time...sadder and hopefully a little wiser next time.

Before bringing our current pup home, I went to view another litter.  They were outside in the bitter cold at 6 weeks old without a heat lamp and a few shavings scattered on a concrete floor.  More disturbing than that for myself was the fact the puppies and adults were extremely reluctant to have any sort of interaction with us or even the bitches owner.  We left and have no doubt since been branded 'timewasters'.  In fact it was quite the opposite, seeing that litter and having some insecurities about the whole situation meant when we met our pups owner we were 110% confident in the puppy, the breeders experience and advice.  No amount of money can buy that feeling especially when you have young children to consider.

>I feel ashamed I've wasted these people's time

You should't feel like this ;) but that you do is to your credit :)

If anything they have wasted their own chances of selling to an excellent buyer ;)  Had the pups been adequately socialised and appropriately vaccinated, then I'm sure you wouldn't have had reservations in the first place and would be collecting the pup as planned ;)

Do contact the breed club, they should have a puppy register or list and will help you find a responsible caring breeder you can trust ;)

Thank you everybody--what stars you are!

What breed is it? are there litter reg low or could you find another list to be added to?

Louise

> how easy it is to make errors of judgment under these circumstances.

> I feel ashamed I've wasted these people's time

You do have to make the right decision for you and a decision which you've clearly agonised over, and one where you've consulted a number of other dog owners and breeders, has the best chance of being the right one.

Your concern about socialisation is legitimate and it's unfortunate that the breeder hasn't done their best for this pup.  One of the ways you can walk away with a clearer conscience is to make it very clear, perhaps in writing, just why you are choosing not to proceed with buying this puppy.  If the breeder started to put the effort in immediately they could improve this puppy quite quickly and get it better prepared for a new home - it is, after all, their responsibility not yours to 'rescue' this dog.

Best wishes :)

The breed is WSS, so not the easiest to find, but we can wait for as long as we need to.

have pmd you Jay

The KC website can guide you through to finding a reputable breeder.