hi i am after some info about tail docking. my bitch has just had a litter of (traditionally docked) gundogs. i obviously would like them to go to working homes however i am really worried that they wont sell without there tails being docked to workers. any info on this please. thanks

I work my dogs ( 1 docked bred that is undocked) It was interesting on a shoot on New Years Eve. one chap said that he wanted another spaniel but the 'tail thing' put him of One other chat who has had docked breeds a lot of years and now has one with a tail commented on how this dog goes into all the rough and hasnt had any injury, and he was very much againt undocked dogs before,

If your dogs are from good working parents then you shouldnt have a problem.  Pedigree is important but more importand is the history (working) of mum and dad. 

i have found somewere that will do it for me now after much searching but am now concerned as to why the thosands of others that i rang were so against it, do you think i should get it done.

The RCVS considers docking of puppies unethical, so many Vets won't do it.  some will, but there are rules and documentation that will be needed, to show they are likely to be worked and also a certificate to be issued for each puppy.

yeah we have to show a shot gun certificate to get it done its £50 a pup which did not realise it would be. my dogs tails are docked but my bitch is not and i def prefer the docked tails. i am just concerned as to why so many places refuse to do it. do you think they will sell better with there tails docked.

First of all, the pups need to be docked before they're 5 days old, so you should really have had arrangements made before now. Do you work your bitch regularly? If so, your local gamekeeper or shoot manager should be able to provide you with the necessary documentation, but it's not easy to find a vet who's willing to do it and issue the official certificate each puppy will need.

As Brainless said, the RCVS considers it to be an unethical operation, so there are few vets who will do it. Perhaps your local shoot manager will know of one. As to whether they'll sell - I haven't seen a docked spaniel puppy at work since the docking ban, but we have plenty of undocked ones.

we have all ready found a vets that do it. they were only born yesteday so today was the first day we had chance to ring around

Well I would want them done tomorrow at 3 days rather than Monday when they will be five days.

It is amazing how quickly they fatten up and the tails thicken.

As to the cost and value????

It's just that I know people who start asking around to find a willing vet as soon as the bitch is confirmed pregnant, if not even when they're still planning the mating!

monday was the first day they could do it. found 2 vets that would do it and that was the earlist for both. i wanted them done tommorrow to cos the pups are chunky. i am just really worried that the workers wont want them undocked and would favour another litter. i have been looking on a few gundog websites at there puppys on offer and most have there tails docked. 

i prob would have but did not no exactly when she was due so would not have been able to book her in anyway and i knew it was banned but i thought in working dogs it was still legal so thought it would be not quite as difficult to get done.
we have found 2 vets that do it in our area but both cant do it till monday

so what would you do if you had pups would you get them docked if you could or would you not anymore.

If they're going to work with agility owners they'll want them to keep their tails.

Have you got a waiting list for the puppies you can find out what they're expecting?

> so what would you do if you had pups would you get them docked if you could or would you not anymore.

I'm not a breeder but if I was I'd never dock. I would certainly never buy a docked pup and I have reservations about adopting a docked rescue dog.

> i am just really worried that the workers wont want them undocked and would favour another litter.

I'm not intending to be critical but isn't this a question that should have been asked, and answered, before the litter is born, or even before it is conceived?  Presumably it's worth making sure you have a market before conception, even if you are planning to keep one, and in purely business terms you'd want to understand your market as early as possible to make sure you have a better chance of sale.  Given that these are lives not a commodity I would think it makes it doubly important.  Are you aiming at working and pet owners?

Have you got some booked already?  What do your potential puppy owners think?  I would think you are just as likely to alienate pet owners if you dock, as you are to deter workers by not docking.

If you do not have buyers already in the pipeline then you should consider which market is most likely to buy from you.  If you work your own dogs and they have good working pedigrees then that may be your best route and some of these people will already be known to you. 

As the vets can't fit them in until Monday, I'd say the decision has been made for you. The welfare of the pups comes before ,at present time, unknown potential owners. :-)

> we have found 2 vets that do it in our area but both cant do it till monday

Then I feel you have left it too late particularly if, as you say, they are already chunky.  

Hi,

My vet who works mainly in the country sees an awful lot of working breeds but refuses to dock on the basis that in over 10 years of practice he told me that he has only ever had to remove one tail due to an injury from working.

I hope you keep the tails and have no problem finding lovely homes for them...i live in a little village and see lots of working dogs passing my house going up to the downs but hardly any docked tails these days :)

thanks for your opinions. we only have a few owners for them and they will be pets however one of them said she still would like the tail docked. my partner who works our dogs says all the guys he goes out with shooting says they would def dock them that is what is confusing me. obviously i would prefer them to go to working homes as i belive that is what my breed is bred for so should be working.

we only found out mags was pregnant a couple of weeks ago so could not have done all the preparation for finding owners etc. and yes i no i should have not bred her this way but i really did do everything i could to prevent this happening. my dog is castrated and was seperated straight away.

the vets that we have spoke to said anywere up to 5 dys is fine for tail docking. monday would be 4 days.

is there any gundog breeders on here that could give me there opinion on this

> is there any gundog breeders on here that could give me there opinion on this

Yes, I have seen a few dockings done.  If they were born yesterday, Monday will be day 5 which, particularly if they are chunky tails is leaving it very late.

ok thankyou. one of the vets said tues would be fine to do aswell. this is my first litter so its difficult to tell how big they normally are born but they do look very chunky to me and the tails are a lot thicker than i imagined them to be aswell. if it was my decision i would not have docked tails but my partner is being a right pain about it since he works them.

I would say Monday is really pushing it too fine, day 2 or 3 max. When docking was legal in Scotland and I had my working cockers tails done, day 3 was the max that the vet through the CDB that I used would leave it to. If the tails are already thick then I really feel that Monday is too late..Just my opinion...I would phone one of the vets back tomorrow morning and explain tails are v thick and is there any way you can have them done tomorrow - many vets open till lunchtime on a Saturday...

> many vets open till lunchtime on a Saturday...

My vet always came to my home after surgery was over.  Day 3 for me too.

> I'm not a breeder but if I was I'd never dock. I would certainly never buy a docked pup and I have reservations about adopting a docked rescue dog.

Karen,

have you ever owned a dog that has ever split it's tail open due to working in cover?

> yeah we have to show a shot gun certificate to get it done

Is this the only evidence a vet needs to legally dock a dog?
I could give a litter of puppies to a dozen people I know with a certificate and ask them to get them docked if this is the case!!! I,m really shocked by that.
Of course its irrelevant to me as I don,t own a traditionally docked breed but I can imagine how people could get round this one.
Or maybe its just my bad mind.

> have you ever owned a dog that has ever split it's tail open due to working in cover?

Fortunately not (despite having very active supposed to be docked breeds).

All the docked dogs I've had or known have suffered with their stumps.

I don't know of any docked gundog that has had a problem with it's tail but I know of several who have had problems including a ESS x Lab who had to have a 2/3rd tail dock due to injury and a couple of my Munsters have split the ends of their tails open working through cover.

Fortunately I have the best of both worlds, a tail that is tightly curled over the back so I have the advantages of docking with them keeping their tails.

>When docking was legal in Scotland and I had my working cockers tails done, day 3 was the max that the vet through the CDB that I used would leave it to.

Apparently it's legal as long as the eyes haven't opened which at about 10 days I think is far too late; my personal view is 3 days should be the maximum. For puppies born yesterday, that would be tomorrow.

When we did dock we did so at two days old..

I'm wrong.

I apologise profusely for the confusion I've caused. It's dewclaws that must be removed before the eyes are open (again, far too late in my opinion; day 3 maximum). Tails must be docked before five days.

If the pups were born yesterday (Thursday) then Monday is the fifth day, which is too late. They must be docked before the fifth day. Your decision has been made. Unless you can find a vet to dock before Monday, the tails stay on.

Having experience of two docked breeds Spins (HPR) & Boxers I would deffinatley say before 4 days old at the very max for docking IHTH :)

if they are just going to pet homes then why dock them? one lady said she'd prefer it???
if u cant sell the pups undocked then maybe you shouldnt of bred them. surely their parentage would count more than a docked tail?

i have 3 springers and all have thier tails i prefer it that way. plus its illegal here in aust

I'm surprised that you have found a vet as you don't really seem to be stating that they are truly going to working homes.  I too think 5 days is to late, mine were always done at 3 days.

I'm also shocked by someones statement that they've had problems with docked dogs tails, in 16 years of owning a docked breed I have never heard or seen a problem with a docked dog.

The majority of working gundog owners will only want docked dogs, not many want ones with tails.

> The majority of working gundog owners will only want docked dogs, not many want ones with tails.

I have always toyed with the idea of having another spaniel breed but now the docking ban is in force I won't contemplate one and I don't work.

yeah but do you work your dogs thats what i am trying to find out we work ours and i would prefer them to go to working homes

hi i have spoke to vets and they all say if the puppys were born thurs the puppys wont be 4 days old till monday so therefor are still able to do mon

i understand the confusion here from people that dont have working dogs and that is why i wanted the opinion of people that do actually work theres we work ours and my partner wants ours tail docked. it is very difficult to pick which one we want at only 4 days old. i just wanted peoples opinions that do work there dogs on this and what they would do if they had a litter, i did not ask for the lectures about breeding etc cos as i have explained in previos posts this litter was not planned but now its here there is nothing we can do about it. we have 8 very healthy and well looked after little pups and i just wanted you dog workers out there to gve me your opinions on tail docking.
perrodeagua there are several vets that do it in our area and all of them only asked for our shot gun licence i dont no why. obviosly i would like them to go to working homes and we are keeping one and we work them. another guy who has asked for one works his but only will if tails are docked. and 2 others are going to homes which will prob just be pets. the only thing is its not like i can make them choose which one they want now and just not dock theres

I really do think that the 5th day (when they are four days) is really pushing the limits, and I am surprised they wouldn't fit you in today, seeing as Vets generally disapprove of docking I would have thought they would have wanted it done yesterday or today.

The litter were known to be on the way for a few weeks and this just goes to show that you really do need to get things like this sorted before the birth.

Those I know with breeds that used to be docked got them banded on the second or third day (at one or two days old) finding this method of docking less traumatic than having the tails cut off.  I expect they will have to be cut off done this late.

we have found a different vets that would come out tonight if we want it done. i have read about banding and apparantly that is much more popular now than the cutting.

i really do wish i had planned it but i honestly had no idea most vets do not do it any more. i knew it was banned but i just thought cos they are working dogs it was still legal and most vets done it.

I really would urge you to get them done tonight as each day those tails do get much thicker.

thankyou for your help brainless and yes i cant believe how much bigger they look already.

I can't answer your queries regarding what working homes will want as I don't work my dogs but have always had my litters docked and know many other breeders both in my breed and a couple of boxer breeder chums, so therein lies my experience.  I truly think you will have problems with healing and quite possibly infection if you leave it until Monday particularly if, as you say, these are not slender tails.

ok thankyou the vet is ringing me back at 4 to let me no what time he is coming around so will let you no if we do go ahead. the pups seem to be so chunky but then so is the sire so tails were def a lot thicker than i thought they would be

how did it go?
i read this whole tread and i didnt realise how much went into docking dogs now i dont think it should of been banned in the first place i feel it should of been lefr up to the breeders to decide what they wanted to do,

i own a docked breed an she has never had any probs with her stump

How did you get on with the vets?

the vet came at 4 on sat. i asked him if the tails were thick and he said they were not at all. my partner insisted on having it done and said they would not sell to the market we are hoping they go to if not. we are advertising them to sell as workers. they had to have there back dew claws done to. i really never realised some dogs got back dew claws but 3 in the litter had them and he said if they were not done would def cause problems. i did feel for the little pups getting it done tho

loads of dogs have back due claws not many ppl know they are there i oftern find they have normally curled round quite bad its a breed feature in p mountain dogs

how did the vet do it if you don't mind me asking?

the cut them, i thought they were going to do the banding method but he said they have never done that.

did he use pain relief and did he need to sow the ends of the tail? sorry just interested