Hi All
Need some guidance and advice please. I have a terrier breed who is now nearly two and has been shown since 6mths. She has always been a bit grumbly on and off when being handled by the judge on the table - from her first show. She has got a little better with time and prefers women to men judges but at LKA we had a lady judge who was lovely and gentle and my bitch let her look at her head and face but then because i think she held her head for longer than my bitch wanted she growled and went to snap.

She has never been as bad as this before and in fact the last few shows she hasn't even grumbled on the table. She stands beautifully and walks well around the ring and normally always gets a good placing within the top 3. Its like she will allow so much being touched but then if its more than she wants or feels uncomfortable with then she gets narky. I do feed her a treat once the judge has finished with her head and teeth to keep her focused on something else but this time i wasn't able to do that. the judge just said to me that she has lost me the class for that which i totally understand as a dog has to be good all round, we still got 3rd though out of 7 so i was surprised and the judge did speak to me in the line up to apologise for not being able to place her higher - i was very surprised by this as really didnt expect to get anything.

At home she lives with 4 other dogs one being her mother. She is very loud when we get visitors and goes mad if they enter 'her' kitchen. At shows she is as quiet as a mouse and a different dog to what we have at home.

Its frustrating when my bitch has reasonable potential to do well.

Do i need to get a behavourist do you think? I did attend ring craft from 12 weeks but didnt like some the way some of the others treated thier dogs and got away with it so left.

She's not keen on lots of fuss so maybe finds it too intrusive??

she is 5 weeks post season but didnt want to use this as an excuse as she's always been a bit unpredicatable.

I'd definitely recommend you find a ring craft you like - without expert help here you're in danger of escalating this issue and at shows themselves it is not possible or, IMO, ethical to try to train your dog out of this behaviour.  Dogs attempting to bite, regardless of breed, size, hormones, are an absolute no-go for judges and this is made clear under KC rules.  This time you were incredibly lucky that the judge did not report the incident - your dog could be banned from showing entirely.

It doesn't sound so far as though she actually can't be won around - it's just that she formed a habit (the growl) which is effective, however at LKA the habit she enjoys success with thus far failed her so she tried her next bet - snapping.  That for sure is one that you cannot allow to become an acquired habit.

At ring training start slowly, getting her gone over only by experienced folks - not learners dabbling in how to go over a dog!  Explain *beforehand* that she has this problem, trainers are not target practice after all!  When you have her comfortable to be gone over with her head minimally examined and she is well behaved reward her lavishly.  I'd introduce a word with the reward such as 'watch' or 'show' so that when you use this word in future she knows exactly what's about to happen (her being manhandled) and that it means she gets an extra special treat immediately follwing.  Gradually build up the handling of her with the trainer(s) so that the length of time spent on examining her head in particular is gradually built up, to a point where it is unlikely any judge would take that same time frame :)

Without seeing her it's hard to establish if her behaviour is a lack of confidence in some situations or completely the reverse.  Someone at training class may well be better able to guide you towards what her motivation is - is it 'go away, I'm scared' or 'just try it mate, bog off!'

Just going out now but hope this helps a bit :)
regards, Teri

yes thanks Teri it does help and i fully understand its not acceptable and she could be reported if she were to actually bite, this is why i need help. I will try anpother ring craft but it is quite large and turns on the table are limited i think but will still enquire and get advice.

In the ring she understands the term stand and is as still as a statue and then walks well using the walk command. I feel it is a nervous I'm not comfortable growl rather than a bog off one! The looking in the eyes seems to worry her i think, its like to invading of her space! either way i have to sort. Its difficult to get people to go over at home as she's knows us all and friends are too light handed i think, plus in her home she is bound to feel more relaxed. We went to family after the show and she was lovely to everyone, hadn't met them before but was happy to be stroked on the head and under the chin without a problem.

The girl i go to for help with my grooming is fantastic and has a good show carreer behind her and my bitch has no probs with her touching her and grroming her head etc. admittedly she hates the clipping round her head but she doesn't growl.

I was thinking enter lots of shows so she gets used to it but reading your advice this probably isn't a good idea - i need to tlak to a trainer.

Hi

I have a westie dog who is the same on the table, hates anyone touching his head and eyes, even to clean them you will get growls off him, he has not snapped though, he will be 7 in Jan and I stopped showing him when he was young because of this, he is the same at ringcraft, so now he is a family pet and is great with the other dogs and babies in the family, just if someone touches his head.  I did get him eye tested at 1yr old, and I am not making excuses,or saying thats the problem, but it was after that he did not like his head or eyes being touched.

learn how to show the bite etc. yourself, then as the judge approaches you show clearly the dentition and bite, this way your dog does not have to undergo the mauling that some judge do. You have to be quick & calm to get it right as the judge approaches, you are there to show the dog to the best of your abiltiy & if that means showing the teeth then so be it.

oh ok - I didnt think you could do that, thought the judge has to do it. Funnily enough she's ok with teeth showing as i give the command 'teeth', its if the judge takes too long over her that she becomes grumpy.

Yesterday my daughter brought home 3 strapping lads from college to be pretend judges - Mabel was absolutely fine with them, we did just a few seconds of head holding on my centre chopping block thingy (bit like the judges table) and gave treats and then they fussed her on the table too. She was more interested in the treats than anything else which is good but as she knows i have them she then wont keep still as she's looking for them!!! She is probably more comfortable anyway being in her own home.

When she was on the floor she didnt want them really fussing her but was happy taking treats and having a little fuss then would withdraw.

Have found a behavourist on line not too far from me - Keith Payne so was going to give him a call.

Lorripop, What area are you? I am sure therre will be someone with experience near you that can help. It does not seem like a major problem to pay out a lot of cash on a 'behaviourist'. A word of warning, make sure they really do have experience & are not 6 week course 'therapists'. Sadly for the good ones with real knowledge, there are several around now who have no real exp with dogs but have a magical piece of paper that allows them to charge a fortune for doing nothing.
If you want to contact me directly I will do what I can to help with advice & tips.

Got your mail am unable to reply without contact info,and I don't want to jam up this thread.