Hi all I just joind this group a few days ago and have learned alot of new things from just the few posts and topics I've read so far. I'm from America, but I'm in Ireland at the moment and will be going to the UK in Jan for 6 months.

I've been involved in the show world since I was 10. I completely understand how the AKC system works, but I've always wondered how does the KC system work? And how does a dog earn it's CH title in the UK? Everytime I've asked that question people always say "It's really different than your system" and "It's too easy for dogs to get thier Ch in the states". While that may be true it still doesn't answer my question about how the KC system works.

I know you need 3 CC's to be a Champion and you only earn CC's at championship shows; but how to you get to a Championship show? And what's the purpose of open shows? I've tried to find this info on the KC's website, but I've found most all kennel club websites to be not as user friendly as they could be including the AKC's.

I think this is quite user friendly isn't it? :-)  Although I am sure people could add more.

Thank you that answers most everything, I must have been having a blonde moment when i was looking at the site earlier, lol. Do the dogs have to qualify for Championship shows or can anyone choose to enter their dog? The site also mentioned benching, are all Championship shows benched?

Anyone can enter as long as the dogs are KC registered.

All championship shows are benched.

One thing that's very different in UK showing to that in many other countries is that we don't have 'Champions' classes. Champions are entered in Open (as can any other dog be) and are equally eligible to win the CC on offer as non-titled dogs. This is why it's harder to make up a champion in the UK.

Also.. in Gundog Group, we cannot become champions until we have gained our Show Gundog Working Certificate.. We can only gain Sh Ch (Show Champion) status with 3CC's
To qualify to undertake the Show Gun Dog Working Certificate a show dog must win either a challenge certificate, three of which make a show champion, or a first prize at a championship show

Also Border Collies have to pass a working test on sheep in order to qualify as a Champion-to date there has only been one Champion Border Collie out of the 1,000s of Show Champions

> Also.. in Gundog Group, we cannot become champions until we have gained our Show Gundog Working Certificate

Or a field trial award

> Also Border Collies have to pass a working test on sheep in order to qualify as a Champion

Does that mean, MM, that if a BC wins 3 CC's and becomes Ch. Such and Such, that they are not actually Champions then? Or have I read that wrong?

And not all Breed Championship shows are benched - ours never has been :(

> if a BC wins 3 CC's and becomes Ch. Such and Such, that they are not actually Champions then?

Their title is Show Champion, not just Champion (according to the KC page).

They are only Sh Champions unless they pass the Working Test-which has just been dumbed down to make it easier for people to get their dogs to the standard required

dumbed down how? what was it before and what is it now?

Old test

New Test

Basically they have removed the penning & shortened the outrun, fetch & drive & replaced real Sheepdog trial judges with KC selected show involved people

I actually ran my first male BC over the old test(he was a working BC do did trials)for one of the ISDS judges so they could see the test in action. My boy would have easily qualified, however he was exempt as he had qualified for the English National Trials(he was an ISDS dog registered with the KC)

> with KC selected show involved people

Who are also active in Sheepdog Trials.

First test day pictured Here

I know you need 3 CC's to be a Champion and you only earn CC's at championship shows;

Just to add, as I've not seen it mentioned in this thread -not ALL championship shows have CCs on offer for all breeds. The number of CCs allocated for each breed is decided by the KC for each year, and it varies greatly. Popular breeds like Golden Retrievers have it at virtually every champ.show (or even all -I'm not sure), in my own breed malinois we only have 8 shows a year with CCs.

And some breeds don't have CCs at any show so can never become a champion in the UK.

Another addition! Three c.c' under 3 different judges. Which technically could mean more than three possibly.

We in Boxers must be very lucky then as the majority of our breed champ shows are benched.
Over the years a couple of breed clubs have taken away benching to keep entry fees down
but on the whole alot still have it.

When posting in my original post I was talking about all-breed 'general' champ shows. :)

And the dog has to be 12 months or older to win another CC, it doesn't matter how many the dog has won as a puppy,
before being able to be 'crowned' a champion.

Do you separate the dogs in to classes? With the AKC there's spearate classes for puppies, bred-by, american bred, novice, and open; all of which are separated by class as well. then the winners dog and bitch compete against the Ch's.

Is there only one CC given out for each breed during a show or can there be multiple CC's awared per breed at each show? Of course that's only assuming that a CC is available for your breed at that show. What breed(s) doesn't have any CC's available?

i see. i must say to the uninformed observer the penning always looked hardest to me. seems to rather undermine the whole excersize making it easier :(

> i must say to the uninformed observer the penning always looked hardest to me

It can be depending on the dog (& the sheep LOL), shedding(not in the original test)can be harder due to the sheep wanting to stay together, but it is this that is a more"working"part of a sheepdogs work(separating one ewe from a flock for treatment etc)

Penning 10 or more is part & parcel of a working dogs life(well it is with the shepherds & farmers I know)driving packets of sheep into selection pens/trailers etc with a dog is much less stressful to the sheep than humans doing it.

I'm glad it has been renamed "Herding Test"because that is all it is now, no close work at all.

> What breed(s) doesn't have any CC's available?

i think it depends on the entry at the show but there are lots that don't always get them- the less common breeds. i think the neopolitans didn't get a cc at crufts this year, small entry (anyone know for sure??)

You have to remember of course that in some other countries BC's become a full champion without doing any herding test at all.

Neapolitans are a rare breed and so don't get CCs a any shows.

The UK KC classes are both age restricted & win restricted

Minor Puppy(6-9 months)
Puppy(6-12 months)
Junior(12-18 months)
Yearling(12-24 months)
Maiden(dogs never having won a first at the level of the show being entered Minor Puppy, Puppy excluded)
Novice(dogs not to have won three classes(Minor Puppy, Puppy-excluded)
Post Graduate(dogs not to have won a Challenge Certifcate, or 5 or more 1st prizes in Post graduate or above)
Limit(dogs not to be a Show Champion or to have won 7 or more prizes in Limit or above)
Open(Open to all dogs)
Veteran(for dogs aged 7 years or more)

There are always separate sex classes if CCs are on offer, some breeds have only a single CC on offer at a Ch Sh, but most have one for each sex.

There are no Champion only classes(other than all breed stakes classes)& the eligible dogs(ie all unbeaten dogs/bitches)can be invited to challenge for the CC by the judge & this includes the Champions.

It is a lot harder to make a dog up in the UK, if you are in a breed where it is the norm to continue showing Champions in the breed. When my Beardie bitch got made up she was BOB at all three shows & beat Champions at each show, including the then record CC winning male Champion. In some breeds it is an unwritten rule that Champions are not shown after being made up(Crufts & Club Ch Sows being the exceptions)in other breeds it appears to be the goal of most exhibitors to win as many CCs as possible with their dogs

i didn't think they did but the only time i was pretty certain about was crufts (but i suppose then obviously they wouldn't get anywhere else since turn out will be bigger at crufts).

If they have CC's one is given to a bitch and one to a dog.

At all Championship shows there will be a certain number of classes for each breed and they will in most cases be seperated into dogs and bitches (not always for small breeds)
So depending on the numerical strength of the breed an average line up could be -
Puppy Dog, Junior dog, Yearling dog (which are all age restricted classes )
Post Graduate dog, Limit dog, and Open dog ( which are all classes that are restriced by how much a dog has achieved, Open being for the most successful dogs and Champions)
Then there would be the same classes for bitches. This is just an example of what the classification could be there could be more or less classes but the details would be in the schedule for entering the show.
Once the judge has judged all the dog classes their will be the challenge. All the class winners are called back into the ring and the winner is then the best Dog or when CC's are on offer then they are the CC winner. The judge will then pick the second best dog from the class winners and also will call back into the ring the dog that got 2nd place in its class behind the one just awarded the CC to pick the Reserve CC winner.
This will be repeated for the Bitches  so there will be a Dog CC winner and a Bitch CC winner who will then be judged for which will take the Best of Breed.
Just to make things a little more complecated there are some breeds that will only have one CC available at certain shows to cover both dogs and bitches and that CC will be awarded to the Best of Breed.
Its a kind of knockout competition really.
All that is probably as clear as mud :-D

>There are always separate sex classes if CCs are on offer,

Not always. SKC in August doesn't separate the sexes for the younger classes in my breed (and others) but do for the older classes (PG, L and Open.) We do have CC's on offer for both dogs and bitches though.

Confused? Me too ;-)

Edited to add: This year there were several bitches in the junior class at SKC. 3 were placed in the first 3 places, the 4th place was male (a dog I bred). If he had been at any other show he would have been 1st in the junior dog class, thus qualifying him for Crufts. The 4th place didn't. Thankfully he was also in the next class (Post Grad Dog) which he won. This was his first and only Championship show this year. Totally unfair that Junior didn't count.

This is why it is so difficult to give a straight answer that covers all as it depends on various criteria that the Kennel Club apply. I believe it is down to number of pups registered and number of dogs shown or some such equation.

> If they have CC's one is given to a bitch and one to a dog.

Not in all breeds. Some, like Malinois have a single CC at some shows...didn't CDs very own MarianneBs Ripley win the single CC at a recent show? :-)