Hello all,
I walked my Golden retriever puppy (5 months old) at the park today, and I met the mum of one of my son's former school buddies there. She has a border collie pup now, which is 4 months old. This pup was off lead, whereas my Golden was on the lead. The collie was quite aggressive towards my pup, i.e. barking, running around her, showing teeth, growling. The lady was not in the least bit concerned about her behaviour. I didn't quite know how to react, but made my excuses quickly and walked off.
My question is - what do I do if I meet her again in the park and the pup runs towards us? It's pretty clear that the lady has no control, and I wouldn't trust the collie to come back to her when called. Do I walk on, or stand still, or do anything? Of course this pup is only young, but I don't want to take any chances...
I should add that the lady has taken her collie to dog training class, and the teacher said that she might have a serious aggression problem in the future if she doesn't work with her dog. But she hasn't attended class since, because her young daughter was ill (and the collie is so sweet at home and this aggressive behaviour in the park is so unlike her, apparently...).
Anyway, I try to avoid to meet her in future, but if I do, how should I react?
Thanks for any advice!!!

Hiya,

The way I would handle this situation is to stand my ground everywhere this BC comes at you- turn to face it it should not come into your personal space. Try and get your dog to be right next to you and stop this dog getting as close at it can. It is using intimidation to get what it wants, so by just standing and facing it and not getting a reaction from you it will give up. Then the owner should come up to her pet and get control maybe saying oui to her will make her realise you can not have some uncontrollable dog charging about the park-
This BC will soon realise who you are and that you are not par-taking in its games and steer clear of you in the future- only do not shout or flap around this dog just look mean and wait for the owner.
Best the owner gets the message now before her dog hits 14 months old at 4 months its just confused how how to interact with everyone.
I'll never forget when I had my dog on lead with a muzzle and this woman's 2 labradors came charging at me I told my boy to leave and stood there while they tried to get near me they didn't, as I just stood eye balling them ! Very scary but it worked.

Hi,

It's a tricky one. First, do you know the class the owner of the Collie goes to and is the judgement of the trainer sound? I say this because the behaviour of the collie pup does not necessarily indicate aggression, it could be very boisterous, yobby, play and she has not yet got a handle on dog etiquette.  However, yes, it could get her into trouble in future and her owner needs to help her dog learn to treat others politely. Of course, collie pup may get a sound telling off in the near future from the right kind of adult dog and that could help fix things too.

My best advice would be to avoid for now. You are obviously anxious about the situation and this won't help you or your pup. Keep your eyes peeled for this woman and keep well clear. The last thing you want is to give your pup the impression that being on the lead means you get trapped in scary situations over which neither you or your owner has any control. There are other things you could do but I think avoidance is the best option for now, until your pup is a older.

I would add that our dogs can surprise us sometimes, even as pups. My lad, when only 5 months gave an older puppy a good telling off for over boisterous play and the other pup backed off and order was resumed. But, it is a risk and you have to weigh up what you know about the other dog and its breed. I do though find that if they are off lead and of a similar age, things tend to sort themselves out. The worst thing is for your pup to feel trapped on the lead and be attacked.

Unfortunately it does not sound as though you can talk to the woman about it, but that would be an obvious way to go.

The way I would handle this situation is to stand my ground everywhere this BC comes at you- turn to face it it should not come into your personal space. Try and get your dog to be right next to you and stop this dog getting as close at it can. It is using intimidation to get what it wants, so by just standing and facing it and not getting a reaction from you it will give up. Then the owner should come up to her pet and get control maybe saying oui to her will make her realise you can not have some uncontrollable dog charging about the park-
This BC will soon realise who you are and that you are not par-taking in its games and steer clear of you in the future

A four month old pup doing this is lmost likely fearful, it isn't trying to engage someone in a power game.  If you try facing down a dog that is afraid enough to act like this then not only could it make it worse you could end up with it snapping as it may be too much pressure for it to deal with.

To the op, I would do as you did and walk in the other direction, not even give it the chance to get close to you as you don't want your pup to have unpleasant experiences at thi stage.  If the other pup was onlead and you want to help maybe you could offer to walk them along together but keep enough distance away that the collie isn't reacting and gradually get closer over a week or two.  It would just mean that you didn't have to worry so much about bumping into the at the park.

I would also if you are friendly enough with her suggest that she doesn't let her pup of lead around other dogs because she just letting him practise this behaviour at a time when it may become quite engrained quite quickly.  I would also suggest she gets one to one help asap from a reward based trainer to help try and build her pups confidence and socialise appropriately.

Thanks to all for your advice.

It's a tricky one. First, do you know the class the owner of the Collie goes to and is the judgement of the trainer sound? I say this because the behaviour of the collie pup does not necessarily indicate aggression, it could be very boisterous, yobby, play and she has not yet got a handle on dog etiquette.  However, yes, it could get her into trouble in future and her owner needs to help her dog learn to treat others politely. Of course, collie pup may get a sound telling off in the near future from the right kind of adult dog and that could help fix things too.

She once went to the same training class I go to, and it's at a very good dog training center. Training is reward based and the trainer is very experienced. When he saw the pup and the owner, he said that the pup at the moment is only boisterous and playful, but he could tell from the interaction with the owner that she is below the pup in the pecking order and that this will cause problems in the future if she doesn't work on it. She also mentioned that the collie started to nip her and other members of her family ( she didn't get into further detail). The trainer reckons that the pup being a collie needs more training and stimulation and that the pup is quite dominant (so even more reason to work with her every day). But then the owner just takes her to the park and lets her run free for 20 min or so, but she told me she hasn't got time for more training...

You are very right, freelancer, I am anxious about the situation. I don't want to let my pup off the lead, so she can run with the other pup, as her recall is not 100% yet and she is still in training. I only let her off in a large enclosed football field nearby or in the woods when there's noone around. It's because I want to avoid situations in which my pup runs towards other dogs and I have no control, or, even worse, towards adults or children who might get frightened. She only wants to play and doesn't jump up, but still.
I think I'll take your advice and just avoid the situation, and when I see her and her dog, walk the other way. Especially since my pup was starting to get frightened when this dog was all over us, growling and barking...

Yes, I think avoidance is best, particularly as it does not sound as though the owner is recepetive to feedback and you do not want to constantly be made anxious on your walks.

When my lad was a pup I always avoided one older puppy and its owner like the plague, because his owner was also irresponsible and let him bully younger pups. She learned the hard way when he, in turn, got a real drubbing from an adult male that did not appreciate his bad manners, a situation she could have avoided had she paid more attention. This owner then had to spend quite some time getting her dog over fear aggression afterwards.

Just as an aside, and this is in no way a criticism of BC's (splendid breed if in the right hands) but they can have nippy tendencies. It's in part the herding instinct. But, the behaviour needs to be chanelled or it becomes a big problem. I doubt the puppy is innately aggressive, it sounds like she has a completely inappropriate and clueless owner. Someone without time for training should never own a high drive dog like a Border Collie. Don't be surprised if it gets rehomed in the next year.

Pet corrector sprays you can purchase them from pets at home, small ones easily fit in your pocket, they make a loud hissing noise so will usually frighten off the offending dog or at least side track them until you are more in control over the situation.

I have a 11 month old BC.  When i got him at 7 months his behaviour was just as you have mentioned.  I feel that this is collie behaviour and as the pup is only 4 months how can you judge that this dog is going to be aggressive. Collies sound aggressive when playing but it is just playing and sounds far worse than it really is.  My dog has now calmed down and a joy to have. Have to say that he has never shown any kind of aggression. For now it might be best if you just say a quick hello and walk on by if the lady is not going to keep her dog on the lead.  The puppy should get better as it gets older.

mspoppy,
I agree the BC pup is more than likely just a normal collie pup and will probably grow out of it. I do think that she is best avoided for now if her owner will not make any effort to intervene when she is bothering another puppy on its lead. I definitely blame the owner and not the pup.

If avoidance is not possible (ie the pup comes and charges you again) then I would stay still.  Dont do any sudden movements, because it could be seen as a threat, and the dog go for that limb (moving you arms, dog goes for arms) 

Having just let Scarlet go, with her, when she was being fearful aggressive, it was turned into a "keep her back, before she bites" type thing, where if she came at me, I had to do something.  But if the dog isnt lunging for you or your dog, you should just stay calm and still.  But in worst case (the dog lunges for you or your dog) you will need to protect yourself. 

It's a difficult situation and without actually seeing the BC pup and owner it's hard to tell exactly what is going on. It could be that that pup is actually nervous of other dogs, but more likely perhaps from your description that it is trying to control them -however, I would not assume anything over the net :)

One thing I would say is that is it imperative that your pup has as many good experiences with other dogs as possible. The reason for this is that then, when and if your pup does ever meet a dog who is more aggro, your pup will be more likely to think of it as unusual, and that dogs in general are still actually quite nice. If your dog does not have many good experiences then one day if you meet this BC again and it's older and still showing aggressive tendencies, your pup could be badly affected by just one encounter. I hope that makes sense. Socialising a pup well is no guarantee if there is ever other dogs who can upset yours around, but it can really help to get them more confident and to cope and recover better if there is ever a problem.

I think I'd also tend to go for avoidance but oh, if only the BC owner would train her dog ... it's not right that she says she has only 20 minutes and no more time, this is never going to be enough ....aarrgh!! She is a menace, frankly.

Thanks again, to all of you, for your advice.
I personally cannot judge wether the BC is just playing or wether it actually is agressive. My puppy is the first dog I've ever owned so i really don't want to judge it. I can only say how I felt when the pup approached, and to be honest, wether it's just play or serious aggression, it shouldn't happen like this. If the owner can't control her dog and if it bothers others, even if the puppy is just playing, then it should be on a lead...
The dog trainer at the training center loves BCs as well, in fact he owns a few of them. I think he was concerned that if the owner doesn't work with the pup and just continues to ignore that behaviour, it will only get worse rather than better and in the future there might be an agression problem. As I said, I personally am too inexperienced to judge it myself, but I'm inclined to agree with the professional.
It really makes me angry to see someone getting a puppy clearly without the relevant research, and then it's the dog that suffers... We took nearly a year until we decided on the breed that suits our needs most and to find the right breeder, and I just wonder why some people are so irresponsible in some ways. To get a BC with 2 small kids and no time to train it seems almost cruel to me. I really hope the owner gets her act together and train the puppy before it's getting too much for her.
So far, I haven't seen her at the park again - I walk at a different time now and also go a different way. So I hope that does the trick...

I have my 11 month old granddaughter 4 days a week and she stays over a lot and never has my BC shown nothing but care towards my granddaughter. There is nothing wrong with having children its the way the dog is trained and brought up. It is the women's fault totally not the BC puppy.  All you can do is do what you are doing and avoid her if she refuses to keep on a lead.  Though i will say again that BC are not known for being aggressive but of course there are exceptions.