There seems to be a difference of opinion between people who think that dogs think (or should think) of us as pack leaders.  There are other people who don't agree with this.  I don't know as I am relatively new to dog ownership compared to most of you. Surely, like most animals animals identify with what they can relate to which would make sense of the pack leader schema that they build up in their minds.  Indeed, humans like to turn dogs into little people because this is what they identify with and find easy to understand.  What does everyone think??

Interesting question.

My opinion is owners have to be able to control their dogs all the time. Actually, we have lots of laws and regulations forcing us to do this. The dog needs to respect and obey its owner.

People describe it in many ways "pack leader", "in charge", "in control", "alpha", etc. If they're kind to their dogs it doesn't matter to me what terms they use to describe their role.

The danger is the people who think that the dog really sees them as another dog in the pack leader/alpha role. Dogs are very well aware we're not dogs and the people who growl at, bite, tease the dog by taking its meals, try to alpha roll them, etc, are very dangerous (not only to themselves but to the dog and general public too).

I certainly don't agree that humans turn dogs into little people to find them easier to understand. Quite the opposite, I find owners who pretend their dogs are little furry humans have dangerous/withdrawn dogs. They put an unreasonable amount of responsibility on their dog and expect it to know right from wrong and to understand every word they say.

Again I do think some people are great owners who are perfectly aware the dog is a dog but use the "little people" phrase for a bit of fun.

Aren't people complicated? No surprise I prefer dogs! ;-)

I think dogs can relate to consistency, know what is safe and what provides safety, know what is dangerous and what results in unpleasant consequences. I think some of the pack leader trainers seem to be effective because they help people behave in a consistent manner. For one example let's look at the owner coming home scenario. The Jan Fennel method says ignore them so they know who is boss. My method is ignore them until they are calm and can interact with me without creating conflict - I don't let my dogs compete for my attention when they are excited. By behaving this way they know what to expect and I reduce chances of conflict in my house.

By behaving in a clear, expected and consistent way my dogs know what to expect of me. They have learned that if they do as I ask that's good for dogs - they get rewards (food, games, walks etc). In dangerous situations I step up and take control. They don't think I'm a dog but have learned that I equate to safety. I see the way they interact with dogs and it's not the way the interact with people. My dogs have a dog group and a heirarchy within that group (and one that flucuates depending on situations) and they have human groups and see us in different roles. My OH is a playmate, I do the training and hence have more control. I'm the one that rewards them.

As for them being little people - not in this house. They are dogs. Just because I don't eat before them or walk through doors first to prove 'I'm boss' (BTW, just my opinion but far better to just teach them it's inappropriate to run into people full stop) doesn't mean I think they're little furry people.

My dogs know they're dogs.  They know we're not.  They know cats are different to them and different to us.  They know birds are too.  IOW they recognise the differences in species.  With that recognition comes the simple fact that animals do not try to dominate animals outwith their own species - the others are either prey or predator and, to dogs, humans are providers :)  That is why we co-exist so effectively IMO :)

I like my dogs jumping up to greet me, I don't care whether they precede or follow me through doors, I enjoy sharing the sofa with them watching the TV and they are fed when need to be fed, not before or after anyone or anything in particular :)

Haven't had one yet plot to overtake the household never mind scheming towards global domination - just big softies really (and us :-D ) that know which side their croissants are best buttered, jammed and topped with cream!

My dogs know when I shout 'enough' that I mean it :-) But it doesn't mean I am the Alpha Bitch in my household (or maybe it does ;-) ) I don't care who goes out the door first, so long as I am still standing on 2 feet when everyone is done. I feed the dogs after me, but only because they get what's left. I don't tolerate arguments, but will allow a bit of telling off, so long as it doesn't go too far. In other words I am the person who has overall control, but I am not a control freak. I allow my dogs to be dogs, not humans.

I do not understand people who have to treat their dogs like little babies, or worse. Dogs have coats, so shouldn't need to be dressed up, unless there is a medical reason for it.

Me & my OH often argue over what you put in your post LindyLou - he says the dogs are family, which I fully agree with as they are part of our family, but I always say they should be treated as DOGS and not as humans. Like a lot of you have said, I couldn't care less who walks through the door first or anything like that, but the dogs know that yanking me out of the door is not acceptable. They have to follow simple household rules just like the OH ;-) The dogs usually get fed before us, but I like to feed them at a set time every morning and evening, and often we don't eat until later on if one of us is late in or something. I find my three do well with a simple routine every day.

lindylou.
you said it all for me.
you do just what i do.
i do think that with my three all being boys they do tend to take more notice when i "shout " as they know i mean it but oh can be a little soft and they know it!!!
oh thinks i am a woman so therefore im " in charge " but i think hes just lazy. LOL

> oh thinks i am a woman so therefore im " in charge " but i think hes just lazy. LOL

Respect. A well trained man as well LOL

> I don't care whether they precede or follow me through doors

I agree with what you have said but as for the going through doors before me I try to make them wait .

The reason being if someone comes to  the door I dont want them being jumped on by my dogs as they may not be dog people, I live on a farm and dont want them running out before me incase there are tractors, cows etc etc. My big girl has barged past me and knocked my legs and it can hurt and she has barged past my son and nearly taken him off his feet.So when I say wait they are now fairly good and will wait untill I let them go through the door either before me or after me .

I do dog training classes as you may or may not know as I like to see a well behaved dog but I also believe that a dog should be able to act like a dog and if they are not allowed to do this then they would not have their own unique personalities.So therefor I let my dogs up on my LEATHER sofa to cuddle up and keep me warm . I would also be very upset if they did not greet me by jumping up, going through my legs, barking in general trying to get my attention . They still listen to me when asked to sit, stay, etc.

As for taking over the household mmmmmmmmmmmm !!! no not yet but taking over my OH special place on the sofa ,yes. My big girl will push him with her legs to get more room or trick him in to letting her out for a toilet break then about turning and stealing his spot. It is so funny and She does get of the sofa when she is told but it is all part  of her personaliy and I wouldnt want her to be any different.

My 3 dogs listen to me more than they do my OH and he cannot understand why as he feeds them more often than I do but he does not take them for walks very much or even for a wee run in the car. He is although as someone else said  in their post, their play mate as he likes to wind them up and make them do silly things and they love it.

I also believe they think on us as providers but also think that they might on some level see certain members of the family ( myself ) as more dominant therefor they do listen to them more. Whether  that is respect ,the alpha effect or that some people have a way with dogs more than others I do not know !!

Treating dogs as little humans is a problem I believe as they can get too mollycoddled and the ones I have seen that are treated like that are either timmid  and needy or the exact opposite, they can be a handfull and quite often dissrespectfull but that is only my oppinion.

I don't like the term pack leader just makes me think of wild wolves all snarling at each other!
I feel my pets are part of my family... so in a sense I am there human foster mum. That's not me humanizing any dogs or me treating them as children with fur coats- only I like them to come to me and know that I am there to look after them mentally and physically.
I have just made sure that they behave when asked to- I have found this easier with having one doing the right thing the others learn off the older dog.
They are very like a 3 yr old child only with no voice- so I'm more on the bags of patience type of dog owner. I find it a far more productive way to be rather than being- oh so forceful and having your pet obey or else attitude. I have seen Jan Fennel's way but only a fad for me so does not last long I'm afraid I go back to our happy go lucky ways :-)

My dogs know I am "boss".  Many people with toy breeds, think they are little babies, and fashion accessories (Paris Hilton Syndrome) and it erks me.  My dogs have 4 legs, and they can use all of them.  I very rarely pick them up and walk with them (unless their foot or leg is hurt, and we are going to the vets).  My dogs have rules, and they need to follow them.  Its always consistant, and it has worked.  They need to let me touch them, anywhere, anytime.  They dont have to like it, but they cant tell me off for it.  (like they hate getting their nails done, but they better not snap at me when I do them). 

Dogs have coats, so shouldn't need to be dressed up, unless there is a medical reason for it.

My dogs wear coats, they dont have much of a natural coat!  Only in the winter though, and they are still meant to walk on the ground.  But in -30C weather, they need a little something I think. 

A fine balance is required for a happy and healthy human/dog relationship.

On the one hand we want a dog in our lives - yet the temptation to make them 'mini-humans' is strong.

On the other - dogs make can make appalling decisions when left to their own devices (ie untrained). They will exhibit behaviour we (and I include the whole community here) would find unacceptable eg running into roads/no recall, peeing indoors, destuctiveness, barking at will, stealing food, inappropriate aggression etc.
To keep dogs in a domestication situation we have to limit their decision making choices and channel their behaviour to suit our ideal. This is where training conflicts emerge.

If being the 'Boss' means that the more 'intelligent' partner guides the lesser into making more acceptable decisions in a home/life situation then..... yes I'm the Boss/Leader/Alpha what ever you wish to call it  - but that is my role.

I totally agree.

Although I have noticed I have been having far too many 'conversations' with him recently he's a good listener

>Dogs have coats, so shouldn't need to be dressed up, unless there is a medical reason for it.

Having no coat (or very little ;-) ) in -30 is a medical reason as far as I'm concerned. The poor thing could freeze to death if not covered. It's the Paris Hilton type of dressing up that irks me.

> It's the Paris Hilton type of dressing up that irks me

I agree buy a DOLL !!!!

I have a busy household, 3 daughters (2 teenagers), 4 dogs, 3 cats, rabbits, degu, etc, etc....
Someone has to take control and I think my dogs just sense that. (usually)
I don't worry about who's fed first, and although I do ignore them when I come home if they are making too much fuss, that's just so I don't heighten the noise and I enjoy a cuddle when everyone is much calmer.
I don't follow all the rules that I hear,  I just do what ever works for our family! :)
Paula