Am trying to get some information for a friend who has recently purchased a Beagle from what - from initial investigations - looks to be possibly a puppy mill...

They purchased a Beagle puppy, but were given no paperwork whatsoever. They have been promised a pedigree, and have been told that the puppy is not KC registered. The pedigree has never materialised (they did pay the 'going rate' for the puppy). They have asked repeatedly, and been told they will get it but still nothing.

When they brought the puppy, the lady selling it said that the dam belonged to her mother. Apparently they did get to see the mother.

When I've done a search on these kennels, there is a listing for them, listing 9 different breeds - not including the Beagles  (wouldn't it be more normal for a breeder to concentrate on two, possibly 3 breeds max?). There is another pet supplies business being run from this premises - and there is also a website which says puppies come with a 3 gen pedigree, but no mention of KC registrations. This also lists only a few of the breeds being listed on another site.

My friends want to have the puppy registered - where do they go from here? If they do manage to get a copy of the pedigree, are they able to register the puppy themselves (providing the parents are actually KC registered).

I have a horrible feeling about this one. Just hoping that it's not as it first appears!

Mod edit: links to kennel website removed

I am sorry Fatttdogg. there is no way your friend can register her pup.. only the breeder can do this.. assuming both parents were KC reg..

At best.. hard as it may seem.. I would take puppy back and demand back all monies paid.. its hard to part with a pup you learn to love so quickly.. but purchasing like this only lines the pockets.. with no thought to the pups or the people who fall in love with them

Unfortunately, I can't see them taking the puppy back. Had I known before they purchased the puppy I would have tried to point them in the right direction - through a breed club, or recommendation from another breeder.

It's horrible that this happens. Not just in the dog world. I am actually a cat breeder - there are some similarities between registering cats and dogs, and I was hoping that the dog world was the same as the cat world. With the GCCF, anyone can register a kitten, as long as they have the pedigree for the cat and a mating certificate, to 'prove' that the dam was mated to the sire. Shame that it doesn't work the same way in the dog world. I was hoping we could get a copy of the pedigree, and find out who the owner of the sire was and take it from there...

> I was hoping we could get a copy of the pedigree, and find out who the owner of the sire was and take it from there...

Why do they want to register the puppy so badly? The real issue for pet buyers is the health of the puppy and the welfare of the animals used to produce it and a registration certificate is not going to wipe out the story behind this puppy.
I would take it back and demand the money back under threat of Trading Standards, the local Council Licencing officer and the Tax Man.

A pedigree is just a pointless piece of paper in this case.  Tell them to contact Trading Standards and take the puppy back. :(

To be honest It does not take much brains to realise what you are buying into-
if you go around to see a puppy to maybe buy, and once there see that they are breeding about 10 other breeds!
I would run a mile.

Personally, I would have done my research first, and not even got as far as travelling up there. Unfortunately I think this is a lesson learnt. They won't take the puppy back - they are too in love with her. It really annoys me that people don't look into these things first.

They really want the pedigree now because a friend of mine mentioned that in the cat world, we don't consider a cat to be a 'Pedigree' unless it is registered and actually has a pedigree. If it doesn't, it's a moggie. It may be of pure blood, but it is not pedigree... They are also now worried that this 'breeder' (in the loosest sense of the term!) is not genuine.

It is so frustrating that puppy mills and kitten farms are able to continue. It is the ignorance of the buyers that allow this to continue - and the fact that they do fall in love with the puppy/kitten and won't take it back, or think that they are 'rescuing' that animal from a terrible home... ignoring the fact that they are making more room for the next one. Ignorance is what allows this to continue. The public really need educating.

GAAAAAH!

I'll get off my soap box now!

Yes, we are well aware of this particular place within our breed they have serveral breeds they NOT reputable and what I consider as a puppy farmer, your friends will not be able to registered their puppy as a pedigree beagle with the Kennel Club now.

As they have the puppy now, I expect they would not return it. All I can say is in the future please call one of our breed club serectary's as they all have lists of puppy bred by reputable breeders.

Oh, they could report them to the council aswell although I think they been reported before. Will be seeing a friend tomorrow so will ask her as she will know more.

They are probably what is considered a 'commercial breeder' and are very possibly a licensed puppy farm (as some sadly are).
Too late really to do much about it, just hope that the pup is healthy and happy.

I doubt that any paperwork will materialise, perhaps the only other option is to go and visit them and demand paperwork face to face, but if it were me I doubt that I would bother, as it is a battle which is unlikely to be won - do report them to tradings and standards though, as they have not got what they paid for.

With the GCCF, anyone can register a kitten, as long as they have the pedigree for the cat and a mating certificate, to 'prove' that the dam was mated to the sire. Shame that it doesn't work the same way in the dog world.

Yes but exactly like with the GCCF, if the puppy's parents were ENDORSED, the pup could still not be registered -just like you could not buy a kitten from a parent registered as non-active and have it registered. Plus of course the stud would have had to have his certificate of entirety as well, so not quite just a case of having the pedigree. :)

Just a thought, but apart from the pedigree that has failed to come through, it sounds like the "breeder" was at least being honest when they told your friend that the pups were not KC registered. Unless of course they said that they would be registering the pup later, or told your friend that they could register the pup themselves.

It would be interesting to understand why the litter isn't registered. Did the breeder tell them the puppy was pure beagle, as in theory you could give a pedigree certificate to a mongrel dog (as breeders of labradoodles and bichon x maltese etc do), so long as you know who its parents were.

Assuming the dog is a pure breed beagle, the only valid reasons I can think of for not being able to register the litter would be if the parents were bred as pets and the breeder never bothered to register them (ie. they are pure beagle but not KC registered themselves), or else the breeder of one of the parents won't remove an endorsement preventing the litter from being registered. If the latter, then I would want to know why, although in some cases I have known breeders refuse to remove endorsements simply because they have a personal dislike for the breeder of the other line, which could have resulted in a high quality litter being unregistered (though in that case the mating didn't go ahead).

Unfortunately, your friends didn't do their research and there isn't very much they can do know. Given they were told the pup wasn't KC registered, it would be churlish to complain about that know. I would keep insisting on seeing the pedigree, if only because it may make them feel better to see the parentage in writing, but it doesn't really mean anything. In fact, you wouldn't be able to tell the breed of dog from its name in any case.

And the price they paid for the puppy is neither here nor there, unless they can prove the breeder lied to them.

If the puppy is healthy, my advice would be to give it lots of love, get it trained, and enjoy it as a puppy and as a dog. If they want another dog in the future, they know now to do things differently, but for now, if they want the beagle as a pet, then does it really matter if it KC registered and has a silly, fancy name on a certificate?

Sorry if this all sounds unsympathetic, and I really do hope your friends get what they want, but I think the most important thing is for the puppy to feel loved and wanted. They should forget about the breeder and concentrate on that.

> the only valid reasons I can think of for not being able to register the litter would be if the parents were bred as pets and the breeder never bothered to register them (ie. they are pure beagle but not KC registered themselves), or else the breeder of one of the parents won't remove an endorsement preventing the litter from being registered.

There is another reason ie that the breeder does not wish to conform to the KC code or their breeding limitations.

> There is another reason ie that the breeder does not wish to conform to the KC code or their breeding limitations.

Ah yes, very true. You mean they may be breeding more than one litter a year from the same girl, or too many litters over all? Good point.

You mean they may be breeding more than one litter a year from the same girl,

No the Kennel Club permit that!!

As for the puppy, they should contact Trading Standards and also the local Council.

> You mean they may be breeding more than one litter a year from the same girl, or too many litters over all?

Too many.  If they are licenced breeders they should not be breeding more than one a year from the same bitch but they can breed for longer than the KC would allow.

me too magica!!!!

Are you certain that the puppy was bred at the address that it was purchased from?  It is possible that it was bred elsewhere and the seller has a pet shop licence to enable them to 'buy in and resell puppies' that have been bred in Wales or Ireland for example?
They should contact the Council in  the area that they purchased the puppy asking if the seller is licensed with them as a dog breeder or has a pet shop licence?
I maybe able to help if you pm with the details.
puppyalert@googlepages.com is my web site.

They really want the pedigree now because a friend of mine mentioned that in the cat world, we don't consider a cat to be a 'Pedigree' unless it is registered and actually has a pedigree
Even if they got the pedigree, there is nothing to say it is a true one - especially getting it from a place like this.  It is not uncommon to make up a pedigree or copy one belonging to another dog..
It is a case of buyer beware and they can't have done much homework as there is plenty of info about buying from reputable breeders.  I don't understand why they would by an unregistered pup if they want a registered one????
I would also be very surprised if this 'breeder' would take the pup back anyway... once sold, this type of breeder doesn't want to know.

I am fully against the puppy farmers and byb as all you guys know, but wouldnt it be better for them too keep the puppy now the mistake has been made?
Just thinking rather then take back and unsettle an already frightened puppy (Who knows what upbringing its had :( ) why not keep it and try to give it the best life possible after a terrible start?
Just wondering as it will go back into terrible conditions and who knows who will buy it next time?
I know its lining pockets but the mistakes been made now......but wouldnt it be better to keep puppy and report them to the police?

Just wondering........

Rach - It has already been said that they are not prepared to take the puppy back - my comment was simply that this type of breeder will rarely take it back anyway.  To them a puppy is a commodity and a sale... they won't want to refund a buyer unless there is something wrong with it.  And in this case, the buyer knowingly bought an unregistered puppy, only deciding later that they wanted to register it.

......but wouldnt it be better to keep puppy and report them to the police?

Report them for what?....  no law has been broken... puppy farming is not illegal even if we deplore it on moral grounds.  It is, as far as I can see, simply a buyer not doing their homework, or changing their mind afterwards.

> Rach - It has already been said that they are not prepared to take the puppy back - my comment was simply that this type of breeder will rarely take it back anyway.  To them a puppy is a commodity and a sale... they won't want to refund a buyer unless there is something wrong with it.  And in this case, the buyer knowingly bought an unregistered puppy, only deciding later that they wanted to register it.
>

My question wasnt directed at you whatsoever and I know the puppy isnt being taken back I was querying it further as we are allowed to do on forum.

> Report them for what?.... no law has been broken... puppy farming is not illegal even if we deplore it on moral grounds.  It is, as far as I can see, simply a buyer not doing their homework, or changing their mind afterwards.

For probably not having a breeders licence for one.

> For probably not having a breeders licence for one.

That isn't a police matter Rach. Its down to the local authority to prosecute for that.

My question wasnt directed at you whatsoever

Oh - OK - It came up in my inbox that i had a reply....so assumed it was in response to my post.... ;-)

For probably not having a breeders licence for one.

I must have missed that as I wasn't aware that it had been mentioned they didn't have a breeders license, although I didn't see the link before it was removed so don't know who they are talking about either....so maybe it was obvious from their website.