Ok, I had taken on a fear aggressive adult dog, who had a real lack of socialization during the critical times. 
She is scared of most new situations, but in the house she is lovely! 
I had decided that she was to go back to the breeder, since I hadnt seen any improvement apart from her in the house. 

Today, I had company, and even though she had meet this person before, she was never secure in the house with company over.  She would bark and growl, and hunch up.  She had also lunged a couple times. 
But today......a total softy!!!!!! She was upstairs in her crate, and I let her out and she ran downstairs to the back door to go outside, and when she came in, ran straight to the kitchen.  She put her paws on my company, and was glued since (but not in a fear way just "hey I like this person!")  It made me start thinking that this dog was turning around, and I am starting to question whether or not I really want her to go back to the breeder or if I want to keep her.  Until today, I had seen very little improvement.  Then today, I am now thinking that she may be able to turn around.

I have done a lot with her in terms of trying to get her socialized, but it seems, that all of a sudden, it clicked!  Like from being unpredictable, to a dog I like better.

She is still here, and I dont know when she is actually going back to the breeder.  I am wondering if I should say I will give it a bit longer. 

Any advice will be appreciated

what happens if she goes back to breeder? will they have time to socialise/train or will dog be kennelled/rehomed again?

first you got to question why she like was it the way the breeders bought the litter if so she going to go backwards if she gos back to the the breeder if they not got the time to do what you have put in already,
how old is the dog.what breed,
if it a bitch is she coming into season ?
have you got the cd that plays all the different sounds play in the background in doors all the time,

there lots of reasons you just have to click each box,why

Has she met this person before and has just gotten used to them or are they a stranger.  Maybe think if the person had different body language to others the dog has met as they may have been giving calming signals.  It seems quite a critical point in this dogs development and would be a shame to upset her now but of course you must do what suits you as well :)

Hi Crespin,

Is this the little red that you recently got?

If it is then you haven't given her anytime to turn around, honest truth it can take a good year, I know sometimes when advice is given it sounds simple, do this, do that, what many of us don't give is the time frame and consistancy required, I am so proud that you have turned her around in the house, considering it took you 2-3 hours to catch her on that first day, so you have done a terrific job, :-) I would have thought you were extraordinary to have her sorted by now, so please don't think she is untrainable, or you don't have the power to turn her behaviour around, it will happen, if she is given the love and confidence she gets in your home she will little by little get better, you know we'll give you all the advice needed to help you both.

I know it is your decision at the end of the day, but I would also agree with the above poster that the breeder should have had a confindent happy young bitch here, the dog is way behind and you can only blame the breeder for that, I wouldn't be happy about sending her back there. Whatever you decide I think you have done a terrific job so far, I wouldn't give up just yet it is truly still early days, I think she has a great home with you and I also think you should be very proud of what you have achieved so far. :-)

Although he's never been aggresive(just very vocal) she sounds like my rescue.He'd been bounced around between homes a few times and eventualy had been dumped at an animal sanctuary just before Christmas a few years ago.He was placed in a foster home which is where we met him.When we first bought him home he was scared of everything from bin bags to men and he wasn't at all happy about them comming in to the house.It took lots of patience and good associations but after a few months he saw visitors as a good thing.It helps that my boxer  feels the need to greet them first so he gets the idea they are welcome and can hang back in his own space and say hello in his own time.
It did take time and was frustrating as he'd bark at men that aproached us(or just walked towards us) when we were out but I always made sure there was plenty of space between him and whoever was approaching and gradualy he's realised they are not a threat.We can even walk past joggers now :)
I feel alot of it is trust,he now trusts us to protect him and doesn't feel the need to defend himself all the time.I read a few books about rescue dogs and the issues they can come with(having only raised 8 week old pups before) and took alot of advice and the only thing he has issues with now is fireworks. I dont think he'd had any training,socialization or routine in his life at all before he came to us so these things helped enourmously.You didn't say how old she is but Hewey was 3 so it is possible even when they are fully grown to turn it around.It does take time but is so worth it when you see them overcome their fears,trust you and be themselves.I never forced him to meet anyone and it's always on his terms,a happy greeting from him is worth so much whereas my Boxer just loves anyone with a pulse.He's been with us for two years now and I couldn't imagine life without him.

I think I woudl be very reluctanbt to return tot he breeder, not only for the reasons outlined above, but also because surely part of the responsibility of breeding involved her sorting out any problems the dog had before they rehomed her?

I know this will sound harsh, but if you knew the dogs problems when you took her on, surely you took her on hoping you could sort her problems out, but prepared to keep her if you couldn't?

Hi Crespin,

I feel for you and having been there myself, have a sense of your dilemma. When you say the dog is fear aggressive what exactly is she doing? Has she attacked and bitten (people I mean) or is it all just display? I think if it is the latter then stick with it. She'll probably always be nervy, but being with other dogs and with you
will help her to deal with life over time. The key thing is she hasn't got worse and it sounds like there have been small steps forward. Given her lack of socialisation at a key time that looks really promising.

It does sound like you are going to be the one who gives her the best chance possible. If the breeder did such a bad job in the first place can't think it's worth sending her back. Time and patience will tell, if after a goodly time she starts showing increasingly aggressive behaviour that will be time to have a rethink. For now, stick with it.

I talked to the breeder last night via the phone, and got a bit more insight as to what has (or hasnt) been done with her.

She had gone to a few handling classes when she was a pup, as she was supposed to be the breeders new show dog.  But then she got another bitch, and decided to focus more on that one, then this girl.  I was amazed, when we took her to the dog show this past weekend, that she was more confident than I had seen her since I got her.  I couldnt understand why, as there were so many people, so many dogs, but now I think her handling classes really helped in this point.

Also, when company does come over, all the dogs are crated at the breeders house.  I can understand it, with the amount of dogs she does have, that she wouldnt want them jumping all over her company but it did hold my new girl back (and yes, its the one I just got - the one that took 2 hours to catch!).  So now I know, why she is unsure of company. 

Last night, the company was my aunt, who she has gotten used to.  But she has never been just let out of crate, and all of a sudden someone be there.  So it was nice, to see that she would come into the kitchen and not growl.  It was a step forward.

My sister was here the other day, and I had Scarlet on the table when she came (for show training, and too look her over).  Michelle came in, petted her, and then gave a treat.  For an hour, Scarlet was glued to her, but when I had to crate them again because the door was gonna be open for a while, as we loaded the truck (my house is all open concept, so there isnt a door to put them behind, and scar will just run out doors I feel if given the chance).  Well, when michelle went to put her shoes on, she started growling again.  I didnt understand why, as Scar had just been glued to my sister for the past hour or so.

I can see the progress she has made, but I guess I was expecting to much from her.  I have never had a shy/nervous dog, as I have always had my dogs from 8 - 10 weeks of age.  This one, she is 14 months. 

And, may I add she is smart as a whip?????  Oh, she can learn anything, as far as obedience goes, really quick!  She already knows how to go back, sit (sorta), come, kennel up, outside (and to what door to go too), wait, and we are starting on down. 

I feel if she did go back to the breeder, all socialization would be stopped.  As she "doesnt have time for it right now". 

She has gone for people (the vet, and my aunt once) but with my aunt, she went for her, and then corrected herself, and pulled her head back.  She thought about it, but then was like "no, this isnt a good thing". 

I can also see how noise sensitive Scarlet is.  She was corrected with a clap, and then water  spray with vinegar in it.  I am thinking she is scared of a clap, because she knows (well at least there it would be) that her eyes will sting because of the vinegar. 

After talking with the breeder last night, I do feel a bit more confident in keeping her on.  Like, now i know where some of these things come from.  Before, I was told she would need "a bit of work" so I was thinking, country vs city things, like traffic and such.  The implyment I got, was so far off what she actually needs, I was taken back by it. 

Thank you CD!!!!  You are all my sounding blocks, cos I dont know what I would do, without these positive words of encouragement.  Taking on a shy/nervous dog, is something I never thought I would do, but she is here now, and I have to deal with it!  But if she went back, I feel it would be a regression into the old Scarlet, and I can objectivly look at the progress she has made, and see that there is hope for her. 

how old is the dog.what breed,
if it a bitch is she coming into season ?
have you got the cd that plays all the different sounds play in the background in doors all the time,

she is 14 month old miniature pinscher, who hasnt learned what life is like on the ground. 

She may be due to come into season, I am not sure.  The breeder isnt sure, either.  Just that she has had one. 

If you were to come to my house right now, goodness, you would think I am trying out for a weird rock band with pots and pans as instruments.  I am banging things, clapping, all of a sudden shouting (not at her, but something like "Oh" in a really loud voice), stomping feet from a floor above her, stomping around the house, and all kinds of different noise making things.  But, I dont actually have a CD of anything, so I at this moment, make due with what I got. 

Hi Crespin,

Doing the stamping, clattering and banging noises to get her used to sounds and not to panic is really good, but, get someone to do that upstairs whilst you are downstairs with her, so that she can see when there is a bang or a clatter that it does not bother you, you need to sing very lightly or be very calmly spoken infront of her or continue just watching tv so that she eventually learns if mum is cool about it, I will be also she will learn from your other dogs reactions too.  If no harm comes to her she will eventually take it all on board and one day ignore a bang or clatter, or at least not run away and hide.

The breeder squirted vinegar water in her eyes, to train her not to do things?....... staying very polite and calm here. What a terrible woman, she belongs in the dark ages.

So glad that you have her, I think you are better off not taking any training techniques from the breeder.

> The breeder squirted vinegar water in her eyes, to train her not to do things?....... staying very polite and calm here. What a terrible woman, she belongs in the dark ages.
>

I agree and that may be why she doesn't trust people full stop.It may take her a while to realise you aren't going to do the same to her but I'm sure she will eventualy :)

Been There Kody & got the T shirt-I found T Touch when I had my bitch & it worked wonders with her-she eventually was a very confident girl & gained her UK title(at a time when there were 30 + classes in Beardies-not like now)

Poor wee mite she hasn't had much of a life before coming to you. Keep working with her it will be worth it in the end

I noticed her reaction, when I took a can of Hairspray (for my hair - not to spray on her of course) and she got real aggitated and cowered.  It isnt an airasole (sp???) one, but a pump one, kinda like a spray bottle.

After talking with the breeder a bit, I was told "A good spray with water, with some vinegar added, will get her to stop doing things you dont want her to do". 

Makes me wonder what she will be like while I groom her, and put some Miracle Coat spray on her......havent tried that yet, and wont for a while, now that I know this!

May I be a bit dense here, and ask what T-Touch is?????  Have no clue, but want to try anything I can, to try and help her out.

> May I be a bit dense here, and ask what T-Touch is????? 

T Touch is a form of massage that releases the body's own endorphins

Thanks for the link!!!  There are a couple, that are reasonably close to me, and I will give them a call!

Hi Crespin,
The vinegar water is terrible and means you're going to have to work twice as hard to get her trust. Sounds like she's bright and very reactive too so any aversive methods will be disastrous. The fact that she pulled herself back from biting someone is really promising, it shows she can pull herself back from full panic mode, and indicates that given lots of time and patience she may well come good. But, try not to go too fast. Small steps only, and there may be steps back before going forward again. Because she missed out on key stuff and is no longer a puppy, it'll take much longer for her to habituate to new, scary stimuli.

I wish you all the luck with her and look forward to hearing how you progress. You'll learn loads about dogs from her, that's for sure.

Don't give up yet!  I took on a bitch at 9 months old who had had no socialisation previously.  It took a long time for her to come round, but it did happen.  When we first picked her up she was like a wild dog.  She bit me (out of fear) when I put my hand in the back of the car to give her water!  It took months for her to be happy with us in the house let alone outside.  7 years down the line she's the kindest, sweetest dog I've ever met who loves everyone who comes to the house.
Best of luck,
Sarah.

Can I just add a word of caution on the getting her used to noises, it is a really good idea but just try not to go over board or overface her as it coould just compound her fears.  The good thng about the cds is that you can control the volume and desenstise them to noises gradually.  I would second the vote for trying Ttouch, it can work wanders and is great bonding time :-)  You could also try her with a wrap or Ttshirt and a DAP collar may be of some benefit.  I'm sure you'll continue to see progress :-)

My OH and I rescued a 9 month (estimated by the vet) Border Collie found wandering in the Rhonnda Valley with a litter mate, they were both emaciated when we first saw them ,we wanted them both but the rescue centre advised against this so we chose Rosie, as she now is.

They would not allow us to have her for a month so as to allow them time to feed her up and give her time to come to terms with the transition from wilds to rescue centre and then on to a home. When we did eventually bring her home it took us nearly a year to 'get her right', every noise, movement, strange people to the house, even kitchen sounds made her freak, she absolutely hated the sight of 5 bar farm type gates and men, both would make her wee and then her bowels would release.

We found that the best way to handle her was almost to ignore her, we had another dog a Retriever, very well balanced typical of her breed and I think Tessa's happiness and confidence helped Rosie. Very very slowly Rosie started to creep out of her shell, the point I'm trying to make in a very long winded sort of fashion is that some times a dog can take a lot of time and loving to bring round, also I think sometimes that what appears to be aggression is often fear, dogs go on the defence by going on the attack.

So don't give up and don't send your dog back to the breeder, if you send the dog back the dog will regress even further.

It will take a lot of your time and energy but if you continue with gentleness, encouragement and reward then you will reap the reward in time.

Sounds like she's bright and very reactive too so any aversive methods will be disastrous.

Evrything is very puppy puppy with her.  I used to be not so keen on complete positive training, but its working with this dog.  I must admit, I would be one, who if a dog is being bad (ie a growl) they would get a check.  Scarlet is wearing a check collar, but its the only one so far I have found in her size (she is smaller necked than my other two, and I have yet to find one other than a chain small enough, but she does need a collar).  The leash, when on her, is on the part of the collar ring that doesnt tighten the collar. 

But my praise, isnt always food either.  (although she could stand a couple pounds - poor dear as fretted off so much weight since she came - looks rather awful).  Sometimes a scratch on the ear, or a "Good Girl". 

If she is bad, I have been saying a stern (but not harsh - its so hard to explain via the internet) NO. 

It sounds like this little girl has really landed on her paws with you Crespin. Good luck with her, and do keep us updated about her progress.

Crespin,

You are right to keep everything "puppy", because she has so much to learn about life. Of course she needs clear boundaries and to know what the rules and regulations are; a good structure to her life will help her feel more secure. But just work all the time on rewarding the good and try to anticipate and work round things you think might be triggers.

You say she's bright and picks up on stuff quickly, that's also probably because she's hyper vigilant, she's kind of on red alert the whole time anticipating problems, so she picks up on everything. You'd see the same with certain neglected or abused child. That's why you need to be so careful about admonitions because it could feel a much bigger deal to her than to a normal, sound dog. I'm not saying that as she gains confidence she won't push you but you'll just have to navigate carefully and patiently. Use distraction to enable you to reinforce and reward good behaviour. If she does something bad try to entice her into doing something good and then reward.

Try to get her to chew on a regular basis too. I often hold chews for my dogs from puppyhood and it helps create a bond, trust and is deeply relaxing for the dog, helping to relieve tension. I know it's obvious, but sometimes these little things help. Also agree about Tellington Touch, teaching her that all human contact is positive.

Also, don't flood her with new and scary stimuli. She's too hyper sensitive and it'll just overload her. I also use those CD's but go too fast too soon and it'll have the reverse affect.

I meant to say that although you don't want her to growl at people, at least she is indicating her level of discomfort to you and it gives you an opportunity to guage her comfort zone for different triggers and work on improving matters. Min Pins can be guardy and territorial so she's just doing what nature intended, but more so because more worries her. My poor boy was also fear aggressive, but so far gone that he gave no warning and literally anything or anyone could trigger him. Within a millisecond he would go into a full scale biting frenzy. So, her growling is a positive and should give you hope.

What a brilliant thread, I really enjoyed reading it. How nice that everyone is rallying around and helping Crespin and Scarlet, now that's how things should be. It gives me faith back in human beings. Crespin it sounds like Scarlet is on her way to receovery, hang on in there and keep going she'll come good, you'll see.

Amanda x

What a brilliant thread, I really enjoyed reading it. How nice that everyone is rallying around and helping Crespin and Scarlet, now that's how things should be. It gives me faith back in human beings. Crespin it sounds like Scarlet is on her way to receovery, hang on in there and keep going she'll come good, you'll see.

What an awesome post, because its the truth!  I have been taking information on here, and following it strictly.  I have also set up some classes for Scarlet, albiet handling classes, but the behaviourist I spoke to said that if she can get confident around people, in what she is confident in doing, then it will help her.

I have had so many steps, this past week, in little Scarlet. 

Yesterday, I had more company over.  This time, it was someone she HAS NEVER MET before.  I let her out, with the other dogs, so she could get confidence (and jealousy) from the other two.  Well, she came barralling down the stairs, and ran into the kitchen where we were all having tea. 

At first, she growled, and was unsure.  But I put a leash on her (basically for more control over her, instead of trying to catch her if she decided to go for my Aunti).   She settled down, and was going over, getting scritches, and pats.  She licked my aunt, and even sat on her lap.  A couple times, she spooked when my aunt coughed.  But she recovered nicely. 

I AM SO HAPPY!!!

I dont know what I would do without the support of CD!!!  She has come soo very far, and it only shows how much farther she can come!

Try to get her to chew on a regular basis too. I often hold chews for my dogs from puppyhood and it helps create a bond, trust and is deeply relaxing for the dog, helping to relieve tension. I know it's obvious, but sometimes these little things help. Also agree about Tellington Touch, teaching her that all human contact is positive.

I dont think she has a problem chewing!  lol.  I have boughten a few rawhides, and she has eaten 5 already, in a matter of a week or so. 

But I would rather her chew rawhides than my slippers (which I found out she does like.......arg....they were warm at one point lol)

Can't believe someone could be so horrible as to squirt vinegar water at a dog as a method of training, I think thats downright sadistic!.

I completely agree with you. I almost cried when I read that and my 12 year old was reading over my shoulder, she said that the breeder should have some vinegar in her eyes and see how she likes it!! Don't you just love the honesty of kids (when they're not lying to get themselves out of trouble!! lol)

I'm glad things are improving. Really glad.

Hi Crespin, I'm new to this forum and although my own dog is just a little shy around people she doesn't know and is not fear aggressive - I would recommend "Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell if you can get your hands on it.  I've found it very helpful so far.  Well done and keep up the good work.  Also finding great advice from CD members too - thanks guys!

Welcome to the forum, and I will definately look for that book you mentioned! 

Crespin,

So glad you are making progress. Patience is everything. With regard to chewy things, have you tried dried bull's penis, or pizzle, as it's known? I favour this over rawhide 'coz it is harder and seems to last a little longer and there is less chance of them trying to gollop the whole lot down. 

I know your girl gets nervy out and about too and, in the past, I have found giving them a ball to carry and chomp down on, can help relieve tension. Obviously I know Min Pins have small mouths but a smaller ball seems to have a satisfying feel for many dogs and some of those smaller balls with knobbles on might be good. Just a thought.

Keep up the good work. But don't be worried if you take a few steps back too. It's bound to happen some time and is all part of the learning curve.

So glad you are making progress. Patience is everything. With regard to chewy things, have you tried dried bull's penis, or pizzle, as it's known? I favour this over rawhide 'coz it is harder and seems to last a little longer and there is less chance of them trying to gollop the whole lot down.

Dont even know what that is (well I do, but as far as getting it.....um.....dont know where to start tbh)

I worry about her carrying something, as she is very guardy over things she has in her possession as well.  She came from a kennel environment, and I think with having all the dogs the breeder had, she kinda had to "fight" for her things.  She is very vocal about not wanting to give something back.  She hasnt gone after me, but has the dogs.  I am working on this, with people, by saying "thank you" and having her give me whatever it is she has.  It is starting to pay off, but I worry about it being other people, you know, like "Ok I will tolerate you taking it, but not this person!" 

Crespin,

I understand. If she is really possessive then you might never get her out of it and it's best probably to avoid going there.

However, if you can try to build up her trust she may gradually improve. I'm sure you are swappping stuff? That is if you want her to give up a ball offer her something more high value in return, a bit of cheese or something. Keep it all calm and low key. The only problem might be if she tries to keep both.

With the dogs it might be best to stop any fights over possessions by not giving her free access to stuff. But, if it's a chew or something, just try to ensure she has the space to enjoy it and doesn't feel pressured to guard it from the others. For instance, would all the dogs be given a chew at the same time? Would that help? Or, would she, or one of the others, try to take chews from the other dogs? It's a bit like playing chess, you have to anticipate the moves and be thinking of advance solutions for each different possibility.

I'm glad you have a behaviourist in situ because although we on the forum can share ideas this is the kind of situation that requires expertise and proper observation of the dog and your pack's dynamics. I'm sure you run everything by your behaviourist first and that is the right way to do it. Nothing I or anyone else here can say is a substitute for the expert who actually sees your dogs. Most particularly in a case like this.

The bull's pizzle is available over here at many pet shops. They cut it up into 5 inch lengths. A whole one is a couple of feet long! I'd have thought you could get it too, but I may be wrong.

Good luck. I look forward to hearing your news and how Madam is faring.

would all the dogs be given a chew at the same time? Would that help? Or, would she, or one of the others, try to take chews from the other dogs?

Oh, all of them get a chew.  But they like to play musical chewies.  The one Casie had, is the one Cher wants, so they switch.  Then the one Casie wants, is the one Scarlet has.  Thats when the fights start.  Casie and Cher have been doing it all along, and they are fine with it, but once it's Scarlets "turn"  it all breaks loose. 

Starting last night, chews are in crates and crates only.  Then maybe she will feel a bit more secure out it.  Since there is no way one of the dogs can get at it.

I am definately swapping things, for higher value things.  It seems to be calming it down a bit with the possessiveness, but only on a human scale.  But we are slowly working.  Slowly trying. 

I cant wait to get her into classes, and use obedience and show training to help her!  I will be observing an obedience class on Friday, and hopefully I like what I see.  He trains trial obedience (like getting your dog ready for trials and such) and guard work (not that I am gonna teach her that!!!!!  But he also trains it.)  We will see what it is like in the puppy class (not just for pups, but for dogs that dont know any obedience at all). 

I have done a lot with her in terms of trying to get her socialized, but it seems, that all of a sudden, it clicked!  Like from being unpredictable, to a dog I like better.

Just a note.  Not sure how long you've had your dog but it took me 18 months after taking on Copper before he became a dog I liked better and me an owner that he liked better.  He's still here - he was awful, then difficult, then kind of difficult but he grew on me and me on him :)

CG

Good luck with the obedience class.

Do you know this guy well? I only ask because the minute I hear that they train dogs to do guard work I get a little worried. I've found in the past that these kind of trainers can come from a military background and can't always get their heads around the terrier temperament and the way they work. They are used to breeds like Shepherds, Rottweilers, Collies and so on, all designed to respond to instruction. Terriers, and I include Min Pins in this, are selectively bred to work on their own initiative and not to back down..so teaching obedience is rather a different ball game; entirely possible, just different.

Just thinking out loud really. I wouldn't mind betting that she loves getting jobs to do. I don't know about you but I find mine knows how to do everything, but he gets bored, so I have to speed everything up to keep him interested.

I dont know him well, tbh, but my aunt has trained with him before.  She had a nervous Doberman (not a good mix) and this trainer made it so Bowser is more friendly with people.  There are only a few things that set him off now, when he used to be exactly like Scarlet, just 90 lbs heavier. 

My aunt has put another one of her dobes in his classes this time around.  I will be going Friday to observe the class. 

There is a trainer here, but when I went to observe the class when I thought about Cher going to obedience, I didnt like it at all.  You are basically left to do your own thing, and if I was going to do that, I would do that at home (Cher was well socialized as a pup).  Plus, she wont take dogs with aggression issues, as my friend wanted to put his dog in, and she said no.  I am thinking she wants the easy way out. 

About the job thing, what kind of jobs can I get a min pin to do??? 

Crespin,

Jobs? Oh you know, the housework, a little cleaning, some washing....?

Seriously though, I just meant that training her to follow commands, once they get the hang of it, is a bit like work for them and they get told how great they are when they get it right... All that nervous energy gets used up in a way that makes the dog feel good and it gives a sense of purpose and direction. I combine obedience work with play every day and I know my lad takes his "job" very seriously indeed.

Crespin

Oh, all of them get a chew.  But they like to play musical chewies.

Try putting out a lot more chews than there are dogs. That way if A wants B's chew there is always a spare one or two for B to move to.  It's what we do if we want to hay  multiple horses in the field - 4 horses, therefore put out 8 piles of hay!