Hi all, I've read with interest some of the other similar articles regarding dogs attacking each other, but I have done a search of the site and can't easily find any advice/help on what to do when a puppy attacks!

Firstly, here's the basic info: we have a 5 year old neutered Lakeland Terrier dog (since 8 weeks old) and a 7 month old Welsh Terrier bitch (also since 8 weeks old). 

For the first 6-8 weeks since getting the Welsh, the Lakeland became a (noticeably) grumpy dog, growling at the Welsh when she was being a bit over-excited, eg jumping all over him, barking at him (playfully).  For the next 6 or so weeks, all was pretty good between them, they'd chase a ball together in the park and play nicely in the home. [Note: she is crated, and he is not (although he was), so their interaction is not 24/7, as she spends all night in her crate, and various parts of the day.]

However, over the last 4-6 weeks, we have had 4 or 5 incidents of "fighting", the last two of which have resulted in the Welsh drawing blood from the Lakeland (on the ear, and more recently by the eye). The way it seems to go is the Lakeland gets on top, lets the Welsh go, then the Welsh goes bonkers and ends up grabbing hold of the Lakeland's neck/head so the Lakeland almost "squeals" - but she doesn't let go (or, should I say, she hasn't yet let go within a period of up to about 30 seconds, at which time either myself or my wife steps in).  We pick her up by the scruff, but she's holding on so tight, we end up lifting both dogs clean off the ground, until she eventually drops him.  No amount of telling her to let go works.

The first few incidents occurred when we were playing with a ball - on each occasion the Lakeland had retrieved the ball, the Welsh had tried to take it out of his mouth, and then all hell broke loose (so, difficult to ascertain which one of them "started" it).  But just now it was an apparent dispute over ownership a rawhide shoe - although we are not 100% sure which of them started it.

I suppose I'm looking for advice/answers on the following: 1) should we give it longer before we separate them (which would be difficult purely from an emotional point of view) and 2) is this just another "stage" (ie establishing dominance) that we need to get through, and, if so, does anyone have any suggestions/experience of what may work to prevent it from happening?

Hi wickerman

it appears from the info given that the incidents worrying you all involve something which one or both of the dogs regard as of high value - i.e. a toy, and, more valuable again, treat/food ....  That being the case firstly I would not leave toys around nor attempt to play with them both at the same time with a toy and, importantly, food whether their meal or treats, chews, bones etc should be given to them apart and supervised. 

Terriers are sparky and feisty by nature but breeds aside this behaviour is not uncommon when in a multi dog household as one or more can easily be possessive over 'resources' which then leads to spats which can be avoided without needing to physically separate the dogs as such - only during meals and some play times.

Ears are notorious for getting caught accidentally in a minor spat and they bleed very easily even when only a minor scrape - it doesn't necessarily equate to you having a true problem here, especially given the ages and genders of these two.  Personally it sounds to me more of an issue with playing becoming too rough coupled with possessive behaviour towards toys/food/perhaps even your attention.

Your older dog was probably a bit of a push-over in the pup's view when he eventually settled into playing and rough-housing with her (adult males are notorious for being suspicious and even fearful of pups!).  Now that she's approaching the teenage rebellion stage she seems from what you've written to be pushing her luck a bit with him hence her holding on to him rather than trying to outwit him or if pushed snap and run which is how most pups handle things.

If she already has a proper grip on him, then attempting to separate them by dragging/lifting her away will only cause injury rather than prevent it.  IME pups don't usually behave in just so determind a manner as this little madam is doing but I have had pups of my own which somewhere around the 7-10 month mark  think they can tell off the adults - they are swiftly reminded by said adults that's a no-go ;)

Try separation around all food, especially treats and titbits, and also not leaving toys around for them to access without your interaction.  Should a similar spat then occur for another reason, you are then in a better position to read what else may have been going on which caused it and can then look to further solutions.  In the event of something happening and your youngster grabbing and holding the male again, make a noise or movement to distract her and so loosen her grip rather than try to physically intervene. 

If this doesn't help or the problem escalates then I would suggest you do separate them and enlist the help of a reputable behaviourist to assess them in their own home and give you specific advice based on their professional observations.

Hopefully it shouldn't come to that and perhaps some terrier owners on forum can give you better advice specific to these little critters roots :-D

regards, Teri

Hi Teri, thanks very much for replying, and thanks for the positive words.

I've realised, from your response, that I didn't give all the detail I could have regarding the incidents.  Those involving the ball have happened outside the house, at either the local park or the beach.  For as long as I can remember I've thrown a ball for the Lakeland at the beach, and the minute we get there (or even to a park/field) he sits down by me and "asks" me to get the ball out of my pocket.  Up to now, I haven't wanted to stop doing that.... trying to keep the Welsh on the lead isn't as it's simply not possible to throw and keep an excited puppy under control at the same time!!  Part of me thinks "stop going to the beach/park until this situation calms down" but, another part of me thinks if going there and this happening is helping to resolve the situation, then it's surely worth doing (short term "loss" for long term gain).  I also have in the back of my mind that the Lakeland may feel like he's been shoved out of place if we stop doing the things he used to enjoy.  Maybe I should consider going out just with him to play ball, and leave her out of it (but would that make things worse if ever I did try and get them to play together further down the line?).

Regarding what happens "at the end" of these spats, both myself and my wife have tried to get her to let go without physical interference.  At the beach, we both tried making noises/telling her to let go, but she just seems to ignore us (she's actually quite well behaved outwith this) and the noise they're both making doesn't help (he's squealing and she's making generally aggressive sounds).  Today's incident occurred in the kitchen, and I tried telling her to let go, and banged my slipper on the laminate floor (a proven distraction tactic in our house) but she just seems to be in a world of her own (although outwith these incidents she's pretty well behaved). 

As well as the advice already given just to add, your Welsh Terrier is also now coming up to her adolescent stage, smaller breeds tend to hit that stage must earlier than larger breeds, bitches generally take over as top dog, so much of her assertiveness is quite natural, she will become the Alpha dog or rather bitch :-) so she will exert and react quite physically to any signs from your Lakeland that he is not allowing her to take over her natural role. If he doesn't take heed she will attack, bite and as you've witnessed draw blood, trouble is your male should now be learning to back down, they should have a few arguments snarling, teeth baring, but then he should give way. If he doesn't she absolutely will not!

You should actually have one to one time with each of your dogs anyway, you need to do that to help to train your Welshie giving yourself the role of authority here. Play ball with her and teach her to drop with a treat on your own, enforce yourself as the authority figure here and you will get a lot more control when the two hit it off.

You also should not have the pup stopping you from playing ball with your Lakeland, he obviously looks forward to his game of ball, so leave the pup at home, or if you are going for a long trot on the beach as she is a small dog you could put the loop of the lead through your foot to hold it giving you two free hands to play ball with your Lakeland calling him to return and drop the ball, then once you've had a good game let the Welshie off for a run and play too. :-)

I think you've been given some good advice and hopefully it will help.

I'd work on this in 2 ways - one would be to walk the dogs separately sometimes (quite often at the moment) to reduce stress/frustration,  and also to thoroughly relax with and enjoy both dogs, esp. your Lakeland and ball throwing :) 

Secondly, I'd be doing lots of reward training with both of them and plan to get it to a fairly advanced level (I don't mean competition style obedience, but things like good recall, fast response, sit on command and emergency sit or down; that sort of thing). This will ensure that both dogs heed you more in general and it will also make walks possibly easier in that the dogs would be looking to you more for guidance. You could incorporate training into walks (make it fun!) so dog press ups maybe 3 times out of 10 before you throw a ball, for instance (or just a sit if you prefer). Basically asking the dogs to do something for you before you do something for them, and making it fun for all.

What you could also do is to take the dogs out together for training sessions with the ball. For instance, you could take some roasted chicken or liver cake and use it to reward train the youngster to sit and wait, or even just wait calmly, whilst you throw the ball a short distance for the other dog. You could then call your other dog back, put on lead, and ask for a calm wait whilst you throw the ball for the youngster (again rewarding for good responses and seeing it as a training exercise). You could interpret this in your own way and use a toy/tuggie game for the terrier who is waiting if you prefer...I'd tend to do both probably.

You could also throw a  ball one way for one dog, with the second dog waiting (on lead at first), and then straight away give a release command to the waiting dog and throw a second ball for the second dog in the opposite direction. I'd do this when there is more control, though, and make it clear via commands you are allowing this. (eg "Sandie, sit" "Foxie, Sit"......then when you throw the ball for "Sandie" you could say "Foxie, wait" and "Sandie,  OK!" whilst also keeping "Foxie" under control with eye contact/our body language, and then "Foxie, OK!" when you throw the ball for "Foxie". I hope that makes sense. Keep it very clear. No ball throwing if the dogs are not listening to you (which is why you need to do lots of basic exercises in the commands you want to use, and then gradually add them in when you have the distractions of ball throwing. Set the dogs up for success and reward hugely the dog who is showing patience and waiting under your control. I hope that makes sense. A good reward based trainer could help you with this sort of thing and explain exactly how to train it if you decided to try it :)

Ultimately in this way, you could end up with dogs who will tolerate each other chasing the ball and also who are fairly obedient (yes I'm bearing in mind they are terriers, but given enough incentive they are trainable! :) ;)  ) and who realise they will both have a go at chasing. Dogs do get to understand they get "turns" at doing things, esp, if the owner is very clear and consistent with the commands given (eg "Sandie, OK!"; "Foxie wait" type of thing, but you do have to train for it).

So, in my view, decide what you want and train for it, and if necessary get some professional help (see www.apdt.co.uk) with this.

A Welsh Terrier bitch, come hell or high water, will always rule a male - it's in their nature to do so and it's not part of their make up to back down.  If she's typical she should just be coming up to her first season and it's when you'd expect her to start laying down Welsh bitch law.  Basically, she's started so she's going to finish - only you can tell through your knowledge of your Lakie male how quickly he's going to lie down and accept Welsh bitch law.  If he's beginning to back down then in all likelihood they'll go on to live an incredibly happy and peaceful life together under her say so - if not it'll continue until she wins.

If it were me, I'd supervise all interaction between the pair keeping excitment levels as low as possible.  Good luck!

Thanks to everyone who replied, it is very much appreciated and has helped me to better understand the situation and how to rectify.  More importantly, reading words like "they'll go on to live an incredibly happy and peaceful life together" really, really help, so thanks for that.

I must be 100% honest and say the idea of trying to get either of these two to "wait" while the other fetches the ball fills me with absolute dread - it's surely an almost impossible task!! 

Also wanted to provide a very quick update, and that is that the Welsh (Amber) started spotting today, which ties in with the suggestions about her coming into season.  We've made a purposeful effort to keep them separate whenever treats and toys are around, and I took Jacob out on his own at the weekend for a game of fetch and he (and I) loved it.  Every evening when we let them into the living room area for as long as we've had Amber, they've chased each other, and grappled, and this weekend has been no different.  No biting, no aggression, just playful wrestling - I feel sure Jacob is using this time to show Amber how to/not to "play", as he gently grabs her round the neck and then wrestles her down to the ground.  However when there's nothing of high value (to coin a phrase) around, she seems quite happy with that. 

Dog psychology is fascinating!

> Dog psychology is fascinating!

Add a Welsh Terrier into the mix and it becomes even more so!

Hi wickerman,

Good advice from all.

You've got two feisty terrier breeds. I'm glad for your sake that your Lakie sounds like he's a laid back boy. It would be harder if he were equally tenacious. Lakelands can be amongst the worst for that. Just to set your mind at rest, why not talk to the Welshie breeder? They should have plenty of experience of how their line of bitches go about laying down the law and what you can expect and do to help things along.

Terrier bitches can be incredibly bossy. A friend's bitch would never let two of her progeny, pups the breeder kept, to play together. Any game was broken up and one or 'tother of the adult pups had to continue the game with her, whilst the other was ostracised! Any infractions were dealt with!

With regard to taking the two dogs out together, you could use one of those metal stakes, the type you screw into the ground, or sand. This way you could tether one dog whilst you play ball with the other and then swap. Perhaps give the tethered dog something to occupy them so they don't throw wild tantrums: a chew of some kind. If your Welshie won't yet give a chew up to you, then give her one she can eat quite quickly, or a kong with something smeared inside that she can clear quite quickly.

Hi again

I'm glad for your sake that your Lakie sounds like he's a laid back boy.

We've certainly had problems with him in the past (I first joined this forum a few years back when we were having trouble with him - we were very naive first time dog owners, and got some great help, and although I rarely post on the site, it's the first place I think of whenever we have a dog related issue) but almost unbelievably he's now not far off the perfect dog (although I would say that, wouldn't I? ;-) ).

Just to set your mind at rest, why not talk to the Welshie breeder?

I did actually email the breeder at the end of last week and much of her advice was extremely similar to what I've received here; as anyone who's ever sought advice will know, the more places you can get the same/similar advice independently the better.  However, this forum is so valuable because it gives access to many people all of whom will have slightly different thoughts, and now I've got plenty of ideas about how to deal with it/stop it happening again.  But, I've decided I was maybe blowing the incidents slightly out of proportion, and although they *sound* particularly nasty, I now agree they are just "minor spats" (as per previous post) and I believe by doing (or rather not doing) certain things (like leaving treats/toys etc out for both of them) I can cut them out completely.

With regard to taking the two dogs out together,

We've decided when going to the beach to try and keep it as simple as possible, my wife will walk with one dog on the lead while I play with the other, and then swap.  I/we'll also continue walking them separately at the weekend, both for bonding and individual playing purposes.  However, thanks for the ideas - my aim is to get the two to play together (I can be just as stubborn as they can!) in the long-term, and therefore I'll be trying my best to make that happen, so all suggestions are gratefully received!

Cheers

wicker