hi all i was looking through a well none puppy sales site it puzzles me that a breeder of shar pei can class mini shar peis as rare and that they are a kc accredited breeder.I know shar pei dont come in a diffrent sizes but other people may not  so starting a new trend of breeding under size pei ,byb will have a field day .  shar pei have there fair share of problems [not to be offensive to shar-pei breeders]but since the well known bbc program and as the kc want to make pedigree dogs more healthy.how do they stop people breeding pups that could cause more problems for this lovely breed.Any ideas?

Unfortunatly there's no way to stop people breeding anything they like including runts which is what a mini version of any breed that  only comes in one size  is.If they are KC accredited however (and selling them as KC registered)it goes against the  KC code of ethics to breed runts..

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/247

I would think points 6 and 14 would cover that.They can be reported to the KC.

i really dont know alot about kc accredited scheme it makes me angry when the careing breeders are trying there best to breed more healthy dogs and also to the standard.Then there is the i want to make money from breeding puppys brigade

> Then there is the i want to make money from breeding puppys brigade

That's definatly what they sound like.It wouldn't matter if they were accredited or not,any breeders selling pups that are  KC registered should be following the KC code of ethics at the very least.I would forward the Ad on to the KC if I were you :)

hi yes i will do that thanks for the reply

I have same problem with my breed with breeders selling 'tea-cups' at ridiculous prices. My breed standard is between 2 and 6lbs, so the smaller ones are still in breed standard and not rare. Any smaller and yes they are selling a runt. I try to explain this to any potential pup owners when they ask if mine are 'tea-cups' that it doesn't exsist.

people will do anything for money and the public are unaware and think they are buying something rare it is just al wrong

every breed has these so-called "designer breeders", we have the labradordoodles which they  advert as no moulting dogs, much healthier etc .. , goldendoodles etc .  Nowadays  there is this market  called: YOU name it, YOU want it=WE breed it!

>   Nowadays  there is this market  called: YOU name it, YOU want it=WE breed it!

Now aint that the sad truth!

every breed has these so-called "designer breeders", we have the labradordoodles which they  advert as no moulting dogs, much healthier etc .. , goldendoodles etc .  Nowadays  there is this market  called: YOU name it, YOU want it=WE breed it!

Shame that it has, but you hit it right on the nail head. 

This person is advertising on a well known site.

not just incorrect size but the fancy colours as well.
Kc don't help as they will register anything, then what to call all breeders when 70% of the pups for sale are not from show breeders, but for pets, most lacking quality.

The breeder of two of my girls told me that there is now big money and business in what is know as 'Handbag' dogs, brought about by the likes of Paris Hilton, other bimbo celebs and WAG's. Some 'breeders' are crossing things like Chihuahua and Pomeranian and as tiny as they can. She said that she had heard they were fetching prices around £2000.

These poor little things end up with painted nails, jewellery ,clothes and probably have no concept of what it's like to be a 'real' dog and end up with all sorts of psycosis.

Why would you cross two of the smallest breeds together when normally they are only small?  A Pomeranian is between 3 and 7 lbs, why breed anything smaller?

Because you can sweet thing and because they come with such a delightful price tag.

> These poor little things end up with painted nails, jewellery ,clothes and probably have no concept of what it's like to be a 'real' dog and end up with all sorts of psycosis.

About 10 years ago I worked for a dog groomer in quite a posh area and even then I saw dogs this small.

One little guy 'Toddy' was a 'teacup poodle', he wasn't an accessory but very much a replacement child.  He couldn't have weighed more than a couple of kilo's, when I picked him up he felt like air.  He was a very sweet boy who did nothing but lick and wag his tail but behind his eyes there was nothing, he really was like a wind up toy.  I groomed several dogs of this size, teacup yorkies, poodles, maltese and they were all the same, just 'an empty vessel'. 

I noticed that just 2 or 3 extra kilo's in size made all the difference to dogs actually being dogs, having individuality, character and normal behaviours.  I really believe that below a certain size the brain just isn't large enough for these animals to develope properly, as people keep breeding smaller and smaller I wonder if the bodies as well as the minds will cease to function :(

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth in what you say about size affecting them in that way.
Couple that with the type of lifestyle that some of these 'tinies' lead and you're probably looking at a very unhappy dog.
I find it very distastful that we humans can manufacture an animal for our own pleasure and never mind the consequences

I have dogs around the 2-5 lb weight and I can assure you that they are all dog.....  highly intelligent, verry happy and full of soul.

I think the problem with the dogs you talk of is the lack of appropriate stimulation, not their size.  A dog that is bought bows, bells and jars of nail polish instead of a stuffed kong or squeaky toy is a very different dog.  I don't think its fair to attribute this to size at all.

I noticed that just 2 or 3 extra kilo's in size made all the difference to dogs actually being dogs

Try sticking an extra 2-3 kilos in your handbag and see how long you'd keep that weight in there for :) Small dogs are defenseless to what choices their owners make for them, bigger dogs literally have more weight to throw around.

I hope I didn't offend you Mini, it was not my intention :)  just an opinion I had formed from my own experience. 

The little dog I mentioned didn't wear all the silly stuff but was totaly spoiled by a lady devastated by not being able to have children.  Of course I have no idea of his breeding although I imagine it was not good as he had the permanent shakes that some little ones have.  I'm glad that your dogs are little and 100% dog :)

Mini, no no you've got completely the wrong end of the stick, small dogs a great, I love them, I've had Chihuahua's and Yorkies. No the point I was making is that there are some unscrupulous people out there that are breeding dogs as tiny as they possibly can only to suit the fashion market. Like you say these poor little things are not given a chance to be a dog.
Please don't think that we were in any way insulting small dogs.

People trying to breed designer dogs have always been around. When visiting Tring Museum I saw two of the tiniest stuffed dogs I hvae ever seen, they are no longer bred but I am sure you would have found larger rats!

My own breed has recently had a breeder in America try to create a "comfort Retriever" by cross breeding retrievers with cocker spaniels. It seems from internet searches that a cross between the golden retriever and the cocker spaniel are quite common and are the usual crosses which are being called comfort retrievers. Thankfully for my breed the American breeders set to and sorted this one out!

Although I don't know anything about breeding I suppose that sometimes crossing two different breeds can produce a 'nice dog', hopefully giving you the best 'bits' of both breeds, but I would think that if it became common practise in time we could end up losing what it is that makes each breed different and special and that would be a great shame.

> I really believe that below a certain size the brain just isn't large enough for these animals to develope properly

In that case how can rats, with heads the size they have, be so intelligent? I think it is more attributable to treating dogs like children or dolls rather than what they are - dogs. Though I don't think it's healthy to breed 'as small as possible'-  the sort of people that do that, do it for the money.

> hopefully giving you the best 'bits' of both breeds

Thing is, you can't know that it will - you could equally get the bad bits of both, and you won't know exactly what you are getting, as first gen crosses do not generally turn out uniform through a litter (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

>In that case how can rats, with heads the size they have, be so intelligent?

Well my view ( totally uninformed of course) was that rats are small as nature intended so their brain is in proportion to their natural body size :) 

I just always thought that some teeny dogs didn't have enough skull room to fit a normal functioning dog brain, as nature intended the dog to be of a certain size.  Of course I am no scientist LOL so came to this conclusion just from my own observations of minature versions of some toy breeds. 

Believe me I love small breeds and have 2 pugs at 6 and 8 kilo's and to me they are true dogs.  Maybe what's made the difference between the dogs I knew and regular toy breeds is that Chi's and Yorkies for instance have been carefully bred to size over hundreds of years and the designer 'teacups' have been bred to size very quickly just to make a quick buck :(

As I said before my opinions are not meant to offend and I genuinely would be interested in any scientific information, even if it proves me wrong :)

I can't speak for other tiny "teacup" breeds but my 8 inch papillon who weighs just under 2kg is by far the most intelligent dog I've ever owned and as agile as they come.I think its probably a case of some owners not treating their "tinies" as dogs and not encouraging their brains to develop by teaching them things.

Perhaps the realy tiny,undersized,teacup versions have been bred from the smallest examples and not the best/healthiest examples resulting in badly bred dogs that are far smaller than nature ever  intended :( 

But tiny dogs will also have a brain in proportion to their size and how it was intended. I think the problem is that other deleterious factors come with trying to breed down to 'teacup' size and particularly breeding for one factor (size in this case) alone. Since dogs come in such a range of sizes - wild canids as well as domestic (red fox is about a quarter of wolf size) - again I would say brain is going to be in proportion to body and function. I think issues like skull shape etc would be more likely to play a part than brain size per se - IYSWIM.

Had Pom's at 3 lbs (within the breed standard) and they are usually the fiestiest of the lot, real characters with plenty of brains!  As said above I think problems come in when certaing groups treat them like dolls etc, in the way they care and even dress them!

Very true someone mentioning about the dog being raised wrong that causes the little dogs to act undoglike not the fact they are dinky-

I went and stayed with a friend I took my dog  tervuren bitch and she took along her border collie pup- Her mother who we stayed with had a little apricot poodle about 18 months old, very small my cat was bigger- This little dog had never been off the lead ever and was fed off a side plate by hand as she didn't touch dog food? so she was brought best cuts of skinless boneless chicken- After us staying there the dog was eating the dog-food I had brought along for my girl cans of prime and galloping about like a demon with our 2 by the end of the week!  She had the best time ever!