I have been watching some of the Cesar Milan programmes on TV and I wondered what others may think of him and his ideas. Whilst I understand that it is necessary for a dog to know it's place in your home and that as owners we must be the pack leader, I'm not to sure about some of the methods or what may go on in the 'boot camp'. The idea of doing the 'Alpha Roll' with a very angry strong large breed (even a small one come to that) looks damned dangerous to me (although I know they put out the Do Not Try This at Home notice) some numpty will try it I'm sure. I'm lead to believe that he advocates the use of Choke Chains/Collars and the electric shock ones too although I doubt this gets shown on the TV. What do others think?

Total & utter load of **!!!***** IMHO Dogs do not see humans as members of their"pack"they are aware that humans are not dogs. Outdated & from the dark ages of dog training

I saw him use an electric collar on his pit bull.  It was to teach him not to go near snakes, which can kill.  It did work but i haven't seen him use it on any other dog.  I must say i do like to watch him at work, a lot of it is common sense, some of the Americans can be a bit thoughtless.  Exercise, dicipline, leadership and affection.  Rules and boundaries.
Yvonne

lol you'll fit in nicely :)

he's not the most popular of trainers with the majority of the forum for the exact reasons you give. while i totally agree with his feelings on excersize and energy he is needlessly violent.

Forget Cesars TV shows and read his book, I think the shows are done in such a way as to show a 'quick fix' to make good veiwing. In 'Cesar's Way' it states that dogs/puppies raised correctly with reward based training should not need any behaviour modification/tecniches that are seen in the shows.

I do like Cesars passion for dogs and the way he stays calm is really somthing to be admired, that alone can make a huge difference in how your dog responds to you, especially for a very 'dominant' breed like mine.
You are right the 'alpha rolls' should not be shown or used, there is no need. I doubt very much that Cesar used them to gain control of his first 'pack' - several Rotties that were deemed to be beyond saving due to thier aggression.

The man has a way with dogs, it's a shame that the shows need to be geared for a quick fix, I think Cesar is more than capeable of changing a dogs behaviour without all the harsh stuff :(

i agree, i have heard good things about the books but the shows can be edited far more than it would appear. but then he does keep making more of them...he obviously doesn't mind the confusion to much :(

> he obviously doesn't mind the confusion to much

I think he gets a bit carried away with his own hype, I'm sure he genuinley wants to better the lifes of dogs, but unfortuanelty is so carried away with getting his message out, he losses sight of how he broadcasts it in the first place? :(
It's sad, I've seen one show in which he builds the trust of a very timid ex-laboratory dog that had been living in fear of even it's loving owners for years. He obviously knows a lot about canine pycology and got through to that dog where many others had failed, unfortunately I think he also knows a lot about human phycology too - most people that have allowed thier dogs to behave as most in the shows do are looking for a quick-fix, if they were prepared to put the hard work in to re-train thier dogs, they wouldn't have got like that in the first place :(

Maybe that's why the shows & TV aren't quite the same - the people taking the time to read a book are more likely to go along the route of taking the time with thier dogs and the people watching the shows are more likely to want the 'quick fix' ? (I'm not saying all the people that just watch his shows are like that, just the ones that watch the shows to learn how to handle/train thier dogs)

> Maybe that's why the shows & TV aren't quite the same - the people taking the time to read a book are more likely to go along the route of taking the time with thier dogs and the people watching the shows are more likely to want the 'quick fix' ?

i see your point but thats no reason to encourage that attitude by providing for it :(

Our vet suggested we watched his programme as our rotti Bo hates going to the vets, she gets stressed and agitated (its only at the vets we have this problem) i no it can be a common problem with dog's and some people joke about it, but it's a real pain if Bo can't be looked at when needed, especially if the vet thats on doesn't know Bo or how to handle her, which can make matters worse. ( we do allways try to make our appointments with the same one) we kept watching to find something relevant to help us, and his suggestion with a dog who also wasn't fond of the vets was to take the dog for a long walk, tire them out before going, this worked fairly well for us, but Bo sometimes strains her leg and then it's not helpful! As already said not all his methods are the best! But would be grateful if anyone has any other idea's you might have to help with the vet thing!
Diane

>i see your point but thats no reason to encourage that attitude by providing for it

No, definately not a good reason! in fact it's very bad, especially as I'm sure the man knows his stuff :(

> But would be grateful if anyone has any other idea's you might have to help with the vet thing!

positive association, but you need to work within your dogs limits. Eg start of by having regular fun visits to the outside of the vets clinic (if Bo is Ok with that), don't go in, just make Bo feel confident about the outside, then progress to going towards the door etc... Reward & heavily praise any positive behavior and ignore fearfull beahviour.
This is a really short reply as it's off the original topic. If you start a new topic & post this agin, you'll get a lot more help :)

Thanks will do!

Yo girls lets rock n roll, I'm new at this as Astarte may have spotted, but now I'm beginning to feel like one of the pack.!!!! (I haven't sussed out the smiley stuff yet) For myself I think he's got lovely teeth and great pecs! As for the dog training stuff, well as I see it with my 5 pooches (1 Goldie, 1 Collie and 3 Shelties) the other half and I practice tonnes of excercise to tire the buggers out (sorry are you allowed to swear on this?) loads of love and cuddles and feed 'em when they're hungry, so I think his method's are not needed for those that have well adjusted dogs, I'm a firm believer that their are no bad dogs only bad dog owners. When the other half and I are out lead walking the troops and we encounter people who yank their dog back will not allow doggie greetings I think there goes a bad dog owner. I watch the programme for what it is, I don't take it too seriously, and go read a Dr. Bruce Fogel book if you really want to know dogs. Oh and I'm fully aware that dogs know humans are not dogs I mean what idiot would walk around on two legs when four is so much better, it's like two wheel drive as apposed to 4x4 (now there's a touchy subject)

> Dr. Bruce Fogel

lol, for the newbie, dr fogel is good and fine... just don't mention the other fogel!! :)

btw its : ) without a space for :)

and is : mad : without spaces

is : confused :

HTH :)

diane i think you'd be best with a more reward based thing than a cesar type of dominance attitude. basically he scares the dogs into submission, since bo is agitated and scared in that situation scaring him (or her? did i miss that?) more won't help.

much as everyone hates likening dogs to kids i feel this analogy works- a child is scared of the doctor or dentist or whatever, do you grab them and smack them and force them in, or do you tell them its fine, show them its not scary, and say they will get a sweety or game etc afterwards?

i think mastifflover recommended you start your own thread, thats a good plan as many posters might have avoided this one due to the feelings that rise a little in cesar milan threads lol. there are lots of people who are very informed about behaviour issues on the forum so you'll get good answers.

btw, have you thought of a DAP diffuser? you can get them for collars. they release a pheromone that a bitch releases during birth and it chills a dog out.

hth :)

http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

Few people make me so angry as Cesar Millan.

I know what you mean on how difficult it can be when a dog gets fixated on something and feels fear each time they encounter it. Our Goldie is terrified of hot air balloons!! Yes I know this may sound daft but we had one almost come down very very low over our garden she was fine with that but when they set the burners to give them more lift well that was it, she froze for a moment then high tailed it down our track back to the house. Ever since then on fine calm summer evenings she will watch the sky to see if the enemy is about, and any sightings bring about shaking, tail between leg and what can only be described as total fear. I know we will never get her out of this so the way we handle it is to ignore it, we do not baby her we just allow her to go back into the house and make no fuss, if we do happen to spot one before her we will calmly take her in. The old bird is 10 years now, I know old dogs can learn new tricks but it's difficult to arrange balloon meetings to allow her to confront her fears. Our Collie is a rescue dog, abandoned in the Welsh hills at 6 months, it took us nearly a year to get her right, lead walking to start with was hell, everytime anybody came walking towards us she would drop to the ground and her bladder and bowels would go, we realised after 2 weeks of having her that the problem was that by being on the lead she could not escape, so we took a chance (some might say foolhardy) and let her walk loose with us and the Goldie (didn't have the pesky Shelties then) this was her saviour as everytime anybody approached she would go and hide in trees and undergrowth, we're very fortunate to have a huge safe country park with no roads to walk our dogs in, as time went on and she began to learn that the people we stopped to talk to all had dogs and also pockets full of treats that Tessa the Goldie seemed to get a lot of, so slowly but surely her confidence built and she came out of her shell, now she's a little madam and off all over the place when it suits her especially if she sniffs a man dog, and she's been 'done', I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that it can take time, Rosie the Collie does not particularly like the Vet either whereas Tessa the Goldie can't wait to go in, after all they have biscuits in there!! Again rosie has picked up on Tessa's eagerness to go see the Vet Man, so each time we have to go we treat it as a day out something fun, take goodies and follow it with a walk after assuming of course that you're only going for routine stuff. If it's emergency stuff then blow the fear Rosie you're getting the treament.

You'll never guess I've just copied down what you've said on those face things.The other Fogel yeh Ben the tasty one in Embaressing Illnesses that's the dog man's son, by the way Astarte your going in my book as some one like me 'take a chill pill' we can all get on together.

To Astarte how do you show somebody on the forum that you're answering their question or point

lol, best to, you always get threads appearing saying "how do i do the faces??"

but NOOOO! the fogel is not tasty! he is a blight on good dog programming :)

you hit reply to their post and you ge tthe box to type in. if you want to quote something (a good idea as it can be confusing who your answering) you highlight the text (scroll down) then hit the quote button ("") at the bottom of their text.

like so:

> To Astarte how do you show somebody on the forum that you're answering their question or point

then it tells the person you've responded to them.

or do as you did in this one and say who your speaking to. they might miss it though if the threads a long one.

hth :)

Right I think I got that but I'm bound to forget, it's a CRAFT thing don't you know, now I'm of up the garden with the troops to practice what I preach as they all goes charging across the fields and I stand there like and idiot yelling Tessa, Rosie, Skye, Bonnie, Isla, where's Cesar when you need him:):):)

Oh and how do I put a piccy of the pooches on too :):) see I've got the smiley thing already, so it's true an old dog can learn new tricks!!!

oh...can't for the life of me remember how you put up an avatar. er... hang on and i'll try to work it out.

Go into 'options' press 'avatar' then upload from pc

just figured it out lol

and so we go from Tio to Kiz and Odin :)

> you hit reply to their post and you ge tthe box to type in. if you want to quote something (a good idea as it can be confusing who your answering) you highlight the text (scroll down) then hit the quote button ("") at the bottom of their text.
>
> like so:
>
>

Thank you so much Astarte!!
I've been wondering how to do that for ages been afraid to ask LOL

pmsl! see! whenever someone asks this sort of thing folk who have been members for ages crop up saying "ah, i see..."

When I see a thread titled 'Dog Whisperer' I thought 'oh noooooooo' lol Our favourtie guy lol

I think he is good and bad, ying and yang, as some programmes you watch and he doesnt Alpha role or do 'submission' type holds or use horrible collars and then he is a brilliant trainer with a true understanding of dogs and their nature and mind, but the next day you watch one and he is using a prong collar, using the 'Alpha' role etc so I like him sometimes and not others, bit of a love hate relationship we have as he does have a amazing kinship with dogs and has done amazing things for the Pits rep in showing they can be rehabilitated after a bad life and his speeches all over the world educate the masses on good dog ownership with his 3 rules but then he just has to get those collars out again.............

Catch 22 I think its known as with me lol

I don't see how any one that loves animals or has a kinship with them can treat them like that. He is a bully that pushes dogs past their limits until they can't cope any more and shut down and therefore do nothing, so look like they are 'cured' because they are no longer reacting.  This is because their reaction is not being listened to, so to cope they shut down and don't do anything, it's called learened helplessness.

You really need to understand about dog body language to understand the full extent of distress these dogs are under.  Look for dogs lip licking, yawning, turning their head away, excessive panting - which he often claims is a relaxed dog!, They more often than not have their tail welded between their legs.  Theses are just a few of the signals you will se in every program of the dogs pointlessly trying to communicate with him and being ignored or worse jabbed in the neck, kicked in the ribs.  Turn the sound off and watch how much of what he does is physical, it's a lot.

Even when it's not physical it's still intimidation, imagine someone you didn't know and walking up to you and standing right in your face in an intimidating manner, and said you need to do as I say, you'd generally either be scared and comply or get cross.  It's no different with the dogs except they rely pretty much entirely on non verbal communication so the message of someone standing infront of them in an intimidating manner is even stronger.  Try putting yourself in the dogs place next time you see it.

I never understand the argument that he offers some good advice so take what you want and leave the rest.  Even the worst trainers around my area know that dogs need exercise.  I think when a 'dog lover' is offering adivce that is abusive then it's time to say it doesn't matter about the odd common sense thing he says, he doesn't deserve to be listened to.  Blimey, I'm sure Hitler said some sensible things, doesn't mean they deserved to be listened to!  There are apparently some clips of him on youtube, of him choking a dog into near unconciousness with a choke collar aswell as lots of other evidence that would make you question 'his love' of animals.  For me that's what he is about, himself, and the animals are just a way to facilitate him getting the life he wants!

> Turn the sound off and watch how much of what he does is physical, it's a lot.
>

I am going to do that you know as it would be intresting to see....

> There are apparently some clips of him on youtube, of him choking a dog into near unconciousness with a choke collar aswell as lots of other evidence that would make you question 'his love' of animals. 

If I see him do that I would be truly truly shocked Have you seen it?

just reading one of the links posted and it says wolves regurgitate food for their young dogs do not!

hands up anyone who has a bitch who has regurgitated a meal for her pups.

*hand shoots to the sky*

So even these in depth studies are slightly flawed :)

>If I see him do that I would be truly truly shocked  Have you seen it?

Yes, and I've posted a link to it in the past.

>hands up anyone who has a bitch who has regurgitated a meal for her pups.

Yep, mine have done too!

I have just watched that video...I am shocked.......and saddened by how he treats that dog, the video fast forwards itself as it takes so long in the Aplha role before the dog submits thorugh complete exhaustion, really got my heckles up that has
The dog is clearly so anxious and utterley exhausted after his Alpha role , he didnt win or submit the dog, the dog was just to tired to fight back anymore and was waiting for the killing blow, the poor poor thing :(
I would have gone mental if he did that to my dog

One factor that captivates the public with these type of shows is how quickly it seems that dogs can be turned around.

However having now taught in dog trainig courses I have seen for myself how a dog who one week is a totally unmanagable accident waiting to happen nightmare who is making their owners life a living hell can be turned round to become a normal average dog within a week. Just by giving the owner the skills and mostly the confidence to manage the behaviour of their dog and to understand why their dog is acting up.

( Normally these are dogs from rescues with owners who say they have never had a dog like this before. )

One lady last week was right at the end of her teather. That dog was going back to the rescue that week if it didn't change. I coudn't get her to manage her dog by explaining or demonstrating with mine so took him off her to try to work out what was going on. And bless he just wanted to be rewarded and cuddled. He was just rather lost frightened and confused and out of his depth. Cuddling him and fussing him made me feel so good. So I told her to tak of all her training contraptions, put him on a standard collar and demonstrated how to handle him ( so they say wow he never walks like that for us and never listens to us like that  ) and to fuss him for being such a good boy, and then she would start to feel love for him and see how beautifully he responds by giving back his love that would bring her and him back in line. The next week she came in and wasn't stressed and they said the dog had totally changed after the last training session and now listens to them and wants to please them. Who'd have though that giving out cuddles would be the key!  It turned out he had caused a rather alarmimg amount of damage in the home and their relationship had broken down and just built up to an expolosive level and just needed turning round.

Some dogs have deep rooted problems that take many years of patience to fix, buy many just look like they have serious issues that can actually be very speedily fixed.

I do hope people try the simple solutions before turning to more drastic damaging methods.

What a great post :)

> He is a bully that pushes dogs past their limits until they can't cope any more and shut down and therefore do nothing, so look like they are 'cured' because they are no longer reacting

Very true and terribly sad :(

This man horrifies me - I don't watch his shows any more for the simple reason that I get emotionally upset as much as enraged for the dogs being brutalised by him, whether mentally or physically   He doesn't train dogs or rehabilitate them - he BREAKS them

Anyone who thinks this man understands dogs at all should watch his programs & videos/DVDs with the sound off & watch just the dogs. You can see them gradually shut down until they switch off completely. He is a cruel bully, watch his own dogs-their tails are always down & the wags are of total submission & appreasement-not the greetings that dogs give to their pack leaders on return

He reached an all time low when he took the little Chinese Crested from the rescue & never took it to the vet until he had had the poor thing for a month-a month in which he let all his dogs push & poke it around & he tried(unsuccessfully)to make it swim in a washing up type bowl of water.

The poor little dog had neurological problems, was blind & was in the end stage of renal failure-it died shortly after the month was up-what sort of sufffering did that poor dog experience in the hand of the so called"Dog Whisperer"the mind boggles

I haven't seen all of the 'shows', and I have to say from the few that I have seen there hasn't been loads of brutality.
I didn't like the one with the working dog (can't remember what brand he was) that barked and went for any visitors to the ranch, and Cesar 'trained' this one with a tennis racket forcing it back into it's kennel.
Yes OK the dog stopped going for people eventually but I wonder if there had been another way to go about changing the dogs behaviour.
A lot of the time I think the problem dog is probably a problem owner, Cesar does seem to have the knack to train people.
So all in all it's a 'thumbs down' for Cesar Milan.
So what about Barbara Woodhouse, oh god lets not even start that one off :):):)

I agree completley with you!! Hi is a cruel bully. The only reason those dogs do what there told to do by him is because they're too shut-down to think for themselves!!!

I really pity the poor dogs he "rehabiltates".

I'm not a fan either. I watched an episode last night and it seemed like he was intimidating a poor old Collie cross to stop her from barking - he rolled her over and she looked really scared :-(

He is a monster. How he got onto TV i dont know. I have never watched a whole programme but will ocassionally watch the odd 5minutes before getting so enraged i have to turn over. He talks nonsense and i too saw the episode with the dog in a crate being pushed into the corner with a tennis racket. Ceaser said something like "look he's calmed down now"....er, no, the poor dog is petrified and too scared to anything. Hardly good training.
I would avoid his methods at all costs. I'd be intrigued to know if the owners found it was a long term solution to thier dogs problems or if infact he made them a whole lot worse?!!!

> just reading one of the links posted and it says wolves regurgitate food for their young dogs do not!
>
> hands up anyone who has a bitch who has regurgitated a meal for her pups.
>
> *hand shoots to the sky*
>
> So even these in depth studies are slightly flawed

My youngest dog, (3 in March) ,still trys to make my older dog, (5 in January do this).He still makes that silly noise, kind of whineing baying sound!!  They are not related not even the same breed and both male !
Quite unusual I think. Or am I just not that experienced in my first time multi dog household?

The last episode I watched that upset me was of a couple who had massive motorbikes and a jack Russell. The most worrying thing is they had a prong collar for this little dog why in heavens would you need that ?? It wouldn't exactly pull you over!  I've seen rotti owners have them on this show, and understood is due to their strength? Saying that Ive a 30 kg bully but never needed something like that.

Now Cesar started snapping this collar like he does when it barked at the motor bike and it kept yelping- screaming in pain! I think even Cesar realised he was hurting the dog because I have never seen him show much affection with any of the dogs but he did with this one smiling a little? weird man... poor thing it made me so cross :-( I can not watch him anymore.

He got on to TV because he has an ability with 'Red Zone' dogs, the dogs that are on death row due to aggressive behaviour towards people.
He says on his web site that he is not a trainer of well balanced dogs, he does not do 'sit, down, stay' etc.
The dogs that he deals with are in the extreme end on the spectrum and therefore need extreme measures, it's that or death, for the dog to have any chance I would opt for the extreme measures.
The dog in the 'tennis racket' situation was very territorial and making the decision as to whom would be allowed on the property, basically NOBODY, this is not a dogs place (unless maybe a Guard dog), this dog would not allow visitors and would chase and attack if they tried to get out of their vehicles, the owners were at their wit's end and knew that the dog would be destroyed if they did not get him sorted out.
What Cesar did may have looked unpleasant to us but most of us do not encounter such aggressive animals and that dog did not look to me as though it would have responded to treats, happy high positive voices and other shows of affection.
As to the owners feeling as though the problem had been solved, yes they were happy with what Cesar had achieved and are now able to have visitors to their house and do all of the sorts of things you expect to be able to do in your garden with out dodging the a set of teeth!

>As to the owners feeling as though the problem had been solved, yes they were happy with what Cesar had achieved and are now able to have visitors to their house and do all of the sorts of things you expect to be able to do in your garden with out dodging the a set of teeth!

A kennel and run would have done the job much quicker!

Maybe so, but the owners did not want the dog confined.

> What Cesar did may have looked unpleasant to us but most of us do not encounter such aggressive animals and that dog did not look to me as though it would have responded to treats, happy high positive voices and other shows of affection.

How do you know that ??  You are an experienced Behaviourist ?

Sorry, but I have come across many dogs that have such learnt behavioural problems & the long term cure is not meeting aggression with aggression, but understanding what is causing the aggression & it is NOT the dog being dominant over their owners. Barbara Sykes has a deep understanding of aggression & never has to resort to pinch, electric shock or the "Illusion"collars(the I collars are slip leads held tight high under the ears to cause the most pain to the dog & hence submission & eventual close down from the dogs).

It is more than unpleasant BTW it is both cruel & excessively painful for the dogs involved. He states all his dogs are fulfilled with thei lives in his compound which is their whole world for most of their lives, except for when they are being filmed being exercised with CM. This is not a fulfilled life for a breed like the GSDs, who need lots of mental stimulation & not forced sbmission

Red Zone dogs do not really exist, it is a term coined by this man for dogs that have learnt that aggression is a reaction that prevents humans or other dogs from invading their"territory"-they are protecting themselves & not their human"pack". It all comes down to the wrong people owning dogs for the wrong reasons & failing to educate & train their dogs in the art of acceptable behaviour.  None of the dogs is actually in a kennels waiting to be PTS by their owners & therefore are not on Death Row. Look at Daddy, he has lived with CM from puppyhood(4 months old) & has actually been his dog for a long time, never mentioned on the program & Daddy was never ever a Red Zone dog, if he was he was one made by CM he belonged to a rapper, who did not have time to look after him enough. His replacement, Junior, also is not a "Red Zone"dog either being with CM from 5 months of age.

Some of my dogs behaviours would not be acceptable to others(like getting on the furniture etc0which is fine, but if people choose to visit me then they have to accept my dog's behaviour, just as I accept the way they treat their dogs(as long as it is humanely naturally)