Hi everyone,
Just looking for some tips to behavioural management and training. We have a 3 month old Bouvier pup who is adorable but also extremely strong-willed. I understand as a breed they can be prone to being dominant, if not handled properly by owners, and therefore I am looking for advice on general training tips. Any tips are extremely welcome. I am a big fan of Cesar Millan and watch his show constantly, but in reality it is very difficult not to get frustrated when she is misbehaving. Can anyone offer me any advice?

Have you spoken to the breeder about training?????
What have they advised you to do????
Lea

The breeder was a first-time breeder and to be perfectly honest, not particularly helpful regarding the pup. It is a shame as she is a beautiful girl.

Your puppy doesn't need to be dominated, it needs to be taught how to live with humans in a clear, kind and consistent way. Your puppy needs to learn to trust you not be frightened of you. It needs to learn that good behaviour results in rewards and bad behaviour will get it nowhere. Rather than trying to train using methods seen on TV I recommend finding a good trainer that works with reward based methods to help you learn how to build your relationship with your puppy so you have a happy, well behaved companion. The APDThas a list of trainers.

I wouldn't do anything that CM shows on his TV programme.  What are you doing with her in general i.e. training wise etc?

I would say at 3 months she would have little concept of what behaving or misbehaving is, so getting frustrated will not acheive anything for either of you, although it is  understandable  :)

Hopefully an expert in this breed will be along shortly although I imagine that a combination of firmness, fairness, love and routine will win in the end. Good luck :)

The breeder was a first-time breeder and to be perfectly honest, not particularly helpful regarding the pup.

If anyone reading this is considering buying a puppy then this is good example of why it's beneficial to buy a puppy from an experienced breeder.  Part of the deal when you hand over your money is to share the experience and knowledge that the breeder includes with the puppy that they've bred. :)

I would seriously recommend you read Jean Donaldson's 'The Culture Clash'. It should be compulsory reading for all new dog owners, it throws dominance theory completely out of the water.

Thought provoking Articles here:
The History and MISCONCEPTIONS of 'The Dominance Myth'

and further to Kayenines reply excerpts of Jean's Talks can be found in Debunking the Dominance Myth.. Dogs are not lying under the table plotting a coup!

Hope these help!
(In Norway we're good with Trolls)

Hi,

You really don't need to be the boss of your dog and trying the methods Ceaser Millan uses on a pup could be quite damaging.  If you spend time bonding with him and training him with positive reward based methods you'll find that you can teach him to enjoy doing the things you want him to and you'll end up with a much better relationship in the long run :-)

Spend a few minutes several times a day doing short training session which will exercise his brain and tire him out.  Clicker traing is a fab way of teaching any dog but pups are just sponges with it and lap it up and it's a great way of developing a strong bond as well as training him in all the behaviours you need.  It would be worth finding a really good reward based training or clicker class.

Make sure he has pleny of things to chew, as pups have a real need to chew at this age and this can alleveiate some of the puppy mouthing and nipping.  Give him kongs stuffed with food, introduce him to treat balls.  Teach him find it games, again great fun and tiring. 

It's really important with large breed dogs to limit exercise for the first year of their lives, stick to about 5 mins per month of age so at the minute about 15 mins at a time, two or three times a day.  Not only will this protect his growing joints but over exercising youngster can actually make them worse, as they can get silly when over tired just like kids!

Manage the environment so that he doesn't get into mischief as much as possible, so for example if he stealing shoes or remotes and chewing things you don't want him to then make sure everything is put away.

I would be rewarding the behaviours you want as much as possible, which means they will happen more often and ignoring and manageing the unwanted behaviours where ever possible.  Direct behaviours you don't want on to something more appropriate, for example if he's being mouthy or nippy, pre-empt it and have a toy that you can direct him onto.

I would second the recommendation for the Culture Clash, also Dominace Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton would be worth a read.  What problems specifically are you finding frustrating?

3 month old pup, i agree with all the previous posts - you should NOT be using Milan methods at all. I WAS also a big fan of cesar milan and watched all of his programs. There probably is a time and a place somewhere for his methods i.e older dangerous type dog - i don't know - but should only be carried out by trained dog handler!!. With a pup your training should be kind and consistant positive training, nothing else. Listen to the people on these posts they have alot of experience (been there and done it). I small pup is like a little child - it takes time and patience (sometimes 1 step forward and 1 back) but the end result is great.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
She is an extremely intelligent dog who has an iron will. She is quick to learn but also does not like to do anything when she doesn't feel in the mood! The particular problem we're having at the moment is her barking and charging the kitchen door when we leave her to go to bed at night - but actually she was fine last night and there have been other nights too she hasn't made a noise. I was simply looking for advice on subtle ways to let her know she is not leader of the pack, as I was told by the breeder this is a must in this breed, as they can be prone to being very dominant. I'm interested in the other theories that have been mentioned, and I think I'll take a look at those.

As far as everything else goes, we're already re-directing her chewing onto kong toys and nylabones and she's doing really well with that. The majority of the training so far has been reward based and positive reinforcement, but she can be challenging at times as she is so willful. We'll just see how it goes. It'll help a great deal when we can take her out for walks next week (as she only had her 2nd vaccination mid-week as I had to repeatedly ask the breeder to arrange her first one for us, as they had not planned to do this before we collected her).

the title of your post suggested you were after some rather more extreme advise- the problem with the written word :)

there are subtle ways to do what your after, that don't involve any kind of angry action. for example get down and play on the floor with her, she'll be a big girl when shes older and a fine size to wrestle with so its good to start now so she knows whats ok. the play is a reward and if she is rough you walk away.

there are subtle ways, rubbing her neck, or playfully wrestling, teaching her to give things to you (in exchange for something), not allowing her to lead you on a walk. mainly its an attitude thing.

If you control the resources, you can control the dog pretty much :)

She is quick to learn but also does not like to do anything when she doesn't feel in the mood!

And why should she? Unless you make it worth her while - you need to find out what it is that is valuable to her and therefore what she will work for and use that to train her.  As Lindsay says you have access to her resources, food, toys, play, use them for training and to encourage her to do the things you want, then they will become more enjoyable to her and she's much more likely to do the things you want.  Thn these things will become conditioned and automatic.

At three months old she certainly doesn't have much of concept of what you expect from her, that takes time and patience - just keep up with what you are doing with rewarding the good behaviour.

It's really important to socialise Bouviers as early as possible and at three months she should be going out and about, Could you manage to cary her out and about so that she gets used to sights and sounds of the outdoors, ready for her first walk.  Maybe find a bench that you can sit down on and let her watch the world go by.

> I was simply looking for advice on subtle ways to let her know she is not leader of the pack, as I was told by the breeder this is a must in this breed, as they can be prone to being very dominant.

I have a very strong minded/dominant breed and can assure you that the key to getting your dog to behave/follow commands is consistent reward based training and for 'stubborn' moments - motivation to get the dogs attention or even lure desired behaviour. :)

My Mastiff has elbow displasia, so his exercise was very limited for a while, I would use extra training sessions (short but fun) to teach him little tricks, getting them to use thier brain tires them out a lot more than a short walk, it also helps teach the dog to be more responsive to commands :)

All good advice from the above,

Just a thought if your breeder is not willing to help, contact the  Bouvier breed club,  I am sure they will give you some advice, and maybe put you in touch with a more responsible/ experienced breeder in your area  who is willing to give you some help.

Hello
I have a red 'bat-phone' in my office that flashes everytime someone talks about 'dominating' a dog! I echo all the good advice this forum's given you regarding rewarding correct behaviour and forgetting the myths of being the big bad boss. Also, anything written by Jean Donaldson is gospel. Good luck and enjoy your puppy.
Steve

Hi
I have just spoken to my friend, Teresa, who is a very experienced bouv owner. If you want to pm me with your phone number, I will pass it on to Teresa and she will be happy to have a chat with you.

Alternatively, you can ring Dorothy Kornelis on 01422 244087 and tell her that Teresa has told you to ring her. Dorothy and her late husband were fundamental in introducing the breed to this country. Teresa purchased her first bouvier off Dorothy many years ago and they have been friends ever since.

Hope this helps you and have fun with your pup, they are a lovely breed.
Jenny

> The breeder was a first-time breeder and to be perfectly honest, not particularly helpful regarding the pup.
>
> If anyone reading this is considering buying a puppy then this is good example of why it's beneficial to buy a puppy from an experienced breeder.  Part of the deal when you hand over your money is to share the experience and knowledge that the breeder includes with the puppy that they've bred. :)

I would add that if you are going with a first time or Novice breeder I would expect them to have experienced Mentors who are willing to help the new breeders puppy owners with the advice the newbie breeder may not have enough knowledge to give.

Certainly when I first started my bitches breeder and also her sires owners held my hand and were willing to do this,a nd since then the people I have helped with first litters have been able to rely on me for advice and help as have their pups new owners.

> I was simply looking for advice on subtle ways to let her know she is not leader of the pack, as I was told by the breeder this is a must in this breed, as they can be prone to being very dominant.

I think the NILIF (Nothin In Life Is Free) principles will do this pretty well.  The concept is that the pup learns that all good things come from you and to earn them they ahve to play ball.  It is also non confrontaional as the dog is choosing to do as you want to get what it wants.

Here are some links: http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=NILIF&src=IE-SearchBox

In defence of Caesar Milan. i have never actually seen him work on puppies. I thought he was brought in to help owners with problem older dogs. (usually the owner thats the problem IMO) That need to be shown some form of dominance/leadership.
I do think that he is pretty good at what he does. Its just different in that he doesn't slobber over dogs like a lot of us do. Just my opinion.

I saw CM work with a dalmatian puppy who was ruling the roost @ 4 months old, his advise was to work him out on a tread mill to reduce its energy. I cringed as I though of the poor pups growing joints.

earlier post mentioned NILIF training - i found this reward based training really effective with my male westie - who has (had now!)  a number of dominant traits. After a couple of months of following this method consistantly, it was amazing how he started to really "listen" to me. I started to see the effcets after a couple of days. Its now something that we do without thinking about it, and my westie is a changed boy!! I also used a house line which he wore in the house - this gives you additional control in that if your pup jumps on things i,e sofas or people or gets too boisterous you can gently remove him from t.he room and give him time out - this is also very effective in getting your pup to understand accepable behavoir

Hi,
We have a shar-pei pup which is another potentially dominant breed, and we have been using clicker training to great effect.  Subtle ways to become "alpha" with your puppy are to make her wait for her food until you tell her to "take it", to always go through doors ahead of her etc.  I would definitely look for a good clicker trainer/class to take your puppy to, as they are fun and challenging for the dog.

alpha is a word that doesnt really mean anything. eating before your dog and walking thru doors before your dog doesnt impart any status meaning, its just instills good manners.