hi, i have 3 dogs at the mo...2 yorkies and a border collie cross

my youngest yorkie is a male (Dylan). he's 12 months old and been neutered

the thing is, even tho he gets on brilliantly with my other 2 dogs, he has always shown signs of fear aggression towards other dogs when we're out for a walk, or towards strangers that might come to the house ie) my children's friends.

his tail goes RIGHT under him, and he lunges at a strange dog, barking and growling, baring his teeth, then jumps away from the dog, still barking etc   it's really getting me down, as i have had so many nasty comments made about him from other dog owners

i am trying so desperately to help him....on the advice of my vet, i booked him in to a local training class that was recommended to me. i've been twice now, the first time Dylan wouldn't come out from under my chair he was that frightened. then when i took him last night, he showed aggression to the dog sitting next to him, and the trainer came marching over, screaming at him to be quiet, and grabbed his lead out of my hand and started yanking him about to try and get him to stop barking. she was yanking him so much, she was lifting him off his feet, till he started whimpering. i was absolutely horrified at her treatment of him, and i had to leave the class, i was that upset. Since we've been home (since last night) he is so nervous around me, and he's never been like that before. he is the most loving dog i have ever had

i have read about treating fear aggression, and nowhere do i see it saying i have to do that to my dog....surely that kind of treatment just instills more fear? when i've seen things on tv etc, it always says to remove the dog from the situation, or make a sudden loud noise to distract him, or just speak to him in a happy voice, telling him its ok

am i over reacting about the trainer's treatment of Dylan, or did i do right in walking out? i so want to help him get over this, but i just wasn't happy about the way she went about things. i'm sorry about such a long post, but i hope someone can offer me some advice on what i should do

Poor you and poor Dylan, he sounds like he was completly traumatised by this woman.  All she's done is prove to him that he has a reason to be scared. 

I would take him to the vet to make sure she hasn't injured his neck and tell them not to recomend her to anyone else.

There are trainers out there that love dogs and wouldn't dream of behaving this way, maybe try a few, asking to just sit at the back and observe their techniques before signing up.  I'm sure there is someone that can help.

Good luck

> am i over reacting about the trainer's treatment of Dylan

Absolutely not!!
In fact I think you showed great restrain! ( I cant whole heartedly say that I wouldnt have been tempted to have grabbed *her* by the hair, shook roughly and asked her was she learning anything? and behaviour issues aside what sort of C spine injuries did she think she might be incurring right now!?? Behaviour breeds behaviour ;) )

Mandy,
This is most certainly NOT acceptable.Im soo sorry your initial experience of training was such an outrageously bad one! this should never be the case. She has only served to reinforce your dogs connection that other people+dogs+strange settings=bad things! so must bark and scare them off away from me :(

There are many good trainers out there and the best use positive reward based (never punishment led) training methods.
To look for a good trainer, who uses poisive training methods only I'd highly recommend you look at the Association of Pet dog Trainers

Let us know what area your in and maybe you can get some good recommendations from folk here.

Please dont let this put you off, full credit for you for trying to do the right thing by your dog, dont let this idiot put you off :)
A good trainer will talk things through with you before you start classes and will also give you direction on where to sit with your dog and how to approach the class itself,they may even recommend a behaviourist before attending but certainly they will set you and your dog up to succeed! <- that is the overriding ethos of this training.

Best of luck keep us posted, rooting for you! and Dylan :)

That is absolutely appalling, and you definitely did right to walk out. Is she a member of one of the dog training bodies - like APDT? If so you can and should report her to them. With his experience of that and the problems you have said you've been having I wonder if you would be wiser to get a good reputable behaviourist to assess him, as he is now likely to be fearful of the training class situation too, and they can work with you at his pace and yours to build his confidence with other dogs etc. Try googling APBC and they have a list of reputable registered behaviourists. Good luck and well done for seeking help for him and having the courage to walk out when you knew things weren't right. :-)

OMG
i would find another trainer as soon as possible
infact i would report her
that is no way to treat any dog

thanks for  your really quick replies.....i have been so upset for him since last night. i live in redcar, in cleveland (the north east)

my dogs are my world, now that my children are growing older, and i desperately want to help Dylan overcome his fear. i don't work, due to ill health, so i don't really have the money to waste on trainers that are no good in the fear aggression field. he's been health checked by the vet, and he has no problems there, so at least i know it IS just a fear thing

looking back in hindsight, i think i got him from someone who was ''puppy farming'' as when i got to her house, after travelling for 3 hours to collect him, she told me she had 11 adult yorkies, and 3 different litters to choose from! at the time, i felt like i was ''rescuing'' him, i didn't realise he would have been so badly affected by lack of socialisation at such a young age

i am reluctant to ask my vet for another referral now, so if anyone here knows someone local to me, i'd really appreciate it, or any other advice i can use myself to help him, that would be great.
thanx again x

OMG poor you, that is awful and I cant believe that there are still trainers out there like this.

One thing I have found that helped was walking the dog on its own and every time it saw a dog (before it had a chance to bark etc) was to gain their attention and reward them for it.  This meant that eventually you get dog = reward = good. 

Its a long slow slog but is worth it in the end.  My boy still doesnt appreciate dogs getting in his face but he will now happily queue with other dogs at an agility show and will happily work in a class with all dogs off lead. 

Mandy,

If you click on this link -> APDT Trainers Cleveland there's a list of Positive method trainers in your area, I notice most do home visits too.
Hope this helps.
Chin up! :)

Hi,

in my experience with fear agression the only way is by using positive training techniques i.e using reward treats and encouragement to improve your dogs fear. I would go right back to first training techniques here. Start with one to one training, that is, walk your yorkie on his own at least once a day without your other dogs. When you see another dog approaching then cross over to the other side of the road (make sure you are between your dog and the other dog, telling your dog to 'heel'. Walk confidently past with a loose lead (i.e no tension) and when your dog can walk past without any barking , lunging etc then treat, praise and then keep walking. This should build up your dogs confidence and reduce what he perceives to  be a threat. You should then gradually, over a number of weeks, be able to pass other dogs on the same pavement without you dog becoming fearful and barking lunging etc. It is critical that you keep a loose lead here so you do not pass tension down the lead to your dog - imagine you have a rubber arm! - its o.k for him to look and see the other dog but not to react in any other way.

I have had this same problem with my 8 month old westie and it has been working really well.

i really can't thank you all enough for all your kind words and encouragement  :) 

clare, i'm going to try your suggestions. i've always walked all 3 dogs together, so i'm going to start taking Dylan out on his own and see how we get on. i've decided i don't care how stupid i look, talking to him in a ''happy happy'' voice ( i'm sure some of you know what i mean!!) because i find i can keep his attention like that

right, i'm gonna take him for a 10 min walk up the road now, just to see how we get on :)

I can only agree with what others have said but add that I have done this myself with a fear aggressive small dog. She used to figure that defence was best so would lunge ahead and bite any dog before it had a chance to as much as look at her -that included my own dogs. I called a clicker trainer I know in (she did a home visit which I felt helped a lot) and we treated her kindly, gently, never with any force whatsoever, never told her off, and never EVER forced her to go closer to any dog than she felt confident with. If she wanted to hide away, we let her. (Let's face it, if I was scared of snakes, it wouldn't help me to be placed in a room full of snakes and be forced to look at them all, I'd just panic.) It was all using treats, many weeks of practice and small steps at a time, as mentioned in other posts. This year (about 6 months after we started it all) she took her GC bronze doing a down stay in a hall FULL of other dogs, all of them bigger than her, and she was absolutely fine. So it does work! :)

thank you marianne

i've just had a walk to my local vets to ask for some advice, and they've given me a number for someone who's done the dog whisperer training, so i've given her a ring & left a message to see if she can offer me some help

after last night, i felt like i would never trust another trainer again, but like a lot of you have said, there are some really good ones out there, so fingers crossed i can get the help he deserves

> and they've given me a number for someone who's done the dog whisperer training

If this is Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer training I'm afraid it will just be more of the same. :( Is the person listed on the ADPT or APBC? Both of these organizations promote kind, reward based methods.

Is he insured? If so i would strongly reccommend seeking the help of a pet behaviour counsellor (see the apbc link above) who will be able to work with you and help his fear aggression. I personally do not agree with some of the dog whispering techniques (or indeed the dog listener techniques which seem to be similar but more along the lines of mental rather than physical punishment.) as it does appear to be largely based in flawed pack theory which suggest you need to dominate your dog, which is not true, what you need to do is desensitise him to other dogs and make him realise they are not a threat, this can be done but it will take time, so be wary of anyone who claims to fix a problem overnight.

i've managed to get a trainer who is listed on the APBC. she is coming to visit us just for an informal chat, to tell me how she can work with me in helping dylan, if i choose to go with her. my appointment's oct 1st, so i'll weigh up in my mind if i think she'll be better for dylan before i allow her to help us, and before i part with any money again.

hopefully this lady will have a better idea of how to deal with a fear aggressive dog!

We also used a ADPT trainer, she was fantastic, she helped me see it from Roxi's point of view, we used clicker to associate dogs with positive experiences and tasty treats to follow.
She still doesn't like in your face type dogs, but can now go off lead with certain dogs she knows now. Though it has been a slow and long journey she has come along way, and is a pleasure to walk.

Good luck

in reponse to lucyandmegs post above - does animal insurance cover paying a behavorist to help train your dog?

I think it depends on the insurance company whether they will pay for behaviourists or not, and I suspect it has to be by vet referral, but am sure some do. A question of checking terms and conditions I think. :-)

It will depend on the insurance company and also the level of cover with a company (some have bronze/silver/gold etc policies).  If it is included by veterinary referral (which AFAIK is the mandate for any specialist referral) it will have a limit of some kind which again would vary from company to company and policy to policy.

I have a high level of vet fee cover but, from memory, referral to a behaviourist would only cover the firtst £250 which I suspect would be an initial visit and assessment, not ongoing advice (although some behaviourists do provide unlimited telephone advice following original assessment and updates etc included in that fee).

HTH
regards, Teri :)

Sorry to hear there are problems with fear aggression; can I suggest that you perhaps write to or phone or visit your vet and tell them of your experiences, as it would be a shame if they continued to "recommend" this so called trainer to others....:(

There are some good books out there which might help you understand the problem a little more; I'd suggest perhaps obtaining a copy of James O Heare's workbook for owners http://www.crosskeysbooks.com/product_info.php?products_id=679   I'm not suggesting it will totally solve everything but I think it will arm you with knowledge, understanding and also give some great plans to help your little dog, and most behaviourists would be delighted you'd have a copy :)

thanx for that lindsay, i'll have a look for that book

my vets is only at the top of my road, so i went straight down there and told them what had happened. they were really upset for me, and have said that they will no longer recommend that trainer

they gave me some phone numbers for some behaviourists that are local to me, so i'm waiting to meet one of them to chat and see if she can help me, before i part with any more money!

Oh well done you, pleased you've done that :)

Good luck!

Lindsay
x