Hi,

Have a 9 month old westie male and 4 year weste male. The 4 year old is really placid and quiet - had no problems training him. The 9 month old has been a nightmare! - seems to fit the pattern of a dominant aggressive and have been using the 'nothing in life is free method' for the last couple of months and positive training techniques which have been working extremely well. Issues i have had with him since 8 weeks old are excessive growling at me, biting and nipping, very boisterous,  jumping up at people (and weeing) unsocial behavoir on the lead (barking and lunging at other dogs), didn't like to be touched or picked up (would growl). Anyway alot of hese issues he has improved significantly on and i am feeling much more confident with him. However there is one problem that seems to happen when he is tired. i will give you an example which happened last night. 4 year old westie got up and walked across room - looked at dosing pup as he walked past. Pup woke up and completley lost the plot - flew at the older dog growling agressively at the older dog who was backed up against a door (older dog did not growl or show any agressive behavoir). I really thought he was going to attack the older dog - so grabbed the pups house line (which he wears in the evenings) to pull him out of the situation and to put him outside the room for some time out. Pups anger escalated and i had to lift him up away from me to stop him from biting me. Got him out of the room and gave him 20 secs to calm down.Then let him back in the room.

i am trying to understand why my pup completely loses the plot like this - and how best to handle it. It normally happens when he is tired - For 99% of the time the 2 dogs get on very well. The pup adores the older dog and they play well together and keep each other company. The pup can be quite submissive to the older dog and follows him around and always takes the submission position i.e rolls over when in play. My older dog is a bit of a wimp though and sometimes stops playing and walks away when pup gets too rough. Sometimes i remove pup when play gets too much for the older dog - but play never gets nasty. On walks the pup is the dominant one and always walks in front.

any advice would be most welcome - by the way the pup was neutered at 6 months

Some of the things you describe to me are not Dominance but fear aggression.  Have you spoke to the breeder and got any advise from her/him?

To late now to advice but I would have personally suggested you get a female instead of a male as a companion to the older male. 

hi blue, thanks for your input - i agree with the fear agression when out walking him and socialising him - so i have been concentrating on positive training techniques here which has been working really well. But in the house he seems to fit with the dominant agressive more and ignoring/ time out/removal from room tactics and NILIF techniques seem to be having a significant effect on him.
i probably would agree that it is fear agression when he is a bit tired and he goes for my older dog, when the older dog is say just walking past him or maybe brushes him slightly. My older dog is the softest most laid back ever and has never growled etc. Like i say, they get on very well together in all other instances and are great companions and buddies. I did discuss with a couple of breeders whether to get a male or female companion and both said it didn't matter - just never get 2 females.

I really want to make sure that i am using the correct training technique when handling the above difficult situation

I dont think its dominance when they walk ahead on lead is it?

THe whole dominant dog thing is very much a myth, there are very few truely dominant dogs and they certainly don't need to resport to any sort of aggression if they are truely dominant. Yes you do get dominant, subordinant relationships between dogs, but this will not be remedied by NILIF although that is always a good thing to do.
I would advise that your first port of call should be the vets as there is a rare type of epilepsy that can cause aggression on waking from sleep, and then if all is well and the problem is truely behavioural they may be able to refer you on to a good behaviour counsellor. From what you have said my first thought would be afear based problem - but a fear of losing resources, possibly you or his sleeping place. Maybe you need to consider where the pup is allowed to sleep, maybe crate training may help him to feel more secure. Was he asleep on the furniture or near you at the time?

hi lucyandmeg - thanks for your post - pup was sleeping on the floor under a coffee table when the other dog walked past. I do not allow them on the furniture. This was in the living room while i was watching Tv - which i do between 8 - 10p.m each evening, after their evening walk. They both go to bed at a about 10p.m every evening - they sleep in a large utility room and have a box each - never have any issues at night or when they are left alone in the day. In the first few months i had him he did used to be agressive over food and i had to stop picking him up cos he used to growl at me. I do not let him on the furniture cos when he was sleepy he used to growl - so i have not let either on furniture for the last 3 months. I  agree about the fear of losing a resource thing - this could possibly be the trigger - but what is the best way to handle his agression, when it happens in a few seconds, and you have to be really quick to stop him jumping on the other dog?

Hi,

The NILF works for most dogs, I would agree that he sounds like he is maybe fear aggressive but it's pretty difficult to diagnose something like that without seeing a dog.  I would advise a full vet check to make sure he is not in any kind of pain, which can make dogs grumpy especially if they are tired.  Dogs are very stoical and hide pain really well sometimes so just because he isn't in any obvious pain doesn't mean he isn't.  Lots of dogs don't like being picked up and will growl to let people know, this doesn't make them dominant, but it may be that he finds it uncomfortable?

Walking ahead on the lead also isn't anything to do with dominance, just about excitement to get where they're going and if pulling works then they will.  That really is just a training issue, might be worth taking him out on his own at times to do some loose lead walking training. :-)

I would also ask the vet for a full blood panel to be done to make sure there isn't anything else going on.  If that comes back clear it might be a good idea to see a behaviourist who uses reward based training methods and doesn't go down the dominance route.  The house line is a really good idea to beable to remove him from situations without confrontation :-)

hi karenclynes,

thanks for your post

i have had him checked by a vet - no issues but have not had bloods done. I pick him up on a regular basis to put him in and take him out of the car. No problems (its only when he is tired that he growls when he is picked up)
I take him out every morning on his own for about 40 mins for one to one training - he has made lots of improvements on his walks.

My terrier gets extremely excited when our GR walks past him to go outdoors. He used to launch himself at the GR and sound exceedingly cross - lots of growling noises. In reality he is just overcome by excitement and the noise is a play noise although that is not so apparent to people who don't know him and it took me a while to fathom it out.

I started to put him on his lead when letting the other dog outdoors and then walked into the garden with him still on lead and only letting him off when he had calmed down. He now lets our other dog go outside unmolested but instead rushes over to his bed and shakes the blanket to death - still makes a lot of noise doing it but his excitement has been channelled away from Harley and onto an inanimate object. Now just working on a way to stop the excitement altogether :)