Hi Everyone,

I recently posted this under - Angry with my dog but then thought maybe I need help with re-call not Anger Management!
But in reality it it fear of something terrible happening to Murphy or being accosted by an angry walker who doesn't understand not ALL
dogs do exactly what thier owners ask!

I agree with the other Terrier owners is that thier sole aim is to make thier owner look a fool!

Here is my original post
I too am very angry at my almost year old wheaten terrier. For the second time this week he ran off when he saw a couple walking towards us. They were obviously on a 'date' and Murphy duly jumped all over them. It didn't help he had just been in the canal and was wet and filthy!
When I finally managed to grab him I belted him on the rump and grabbed his beard and said 'bad dog'.
I was shaking with rage and my dog walking friend said I was a bit harsh and her dog only ever had had a 'tap' on the nose!

But when he ran off the other week and I couldn't find him at all, a neighbour luckily saw him near a main road and put him in the car and took him home. I felt sick with worry! And very embarrased to boot!

The implications of what could have happened doesn't bear thinking about. Also in this day and age you could get sued for almost anything (dry cleaning I'm sure would be one) and unfortunately not everyone out there loves dogs..........even well behaved ones!

At home I can get him to almost jump through hoops on fire. I train him every day and have done from when we took him home at 11 weeks old.  But recall..........No!

I have tried food, toys, sonic things, even a vibrate collar! Nothing works.

Loyalty does not exist in Murphy's world.

I do not want him to have a life attached to a lead and I hate those extending ones, still have the scars to remind me!

So anyone any ideas before I resort to being branded a 'dog beater'!

I would consider having him neutered but would it really help? He doesn't have any other doggy traits that I would say he needed neutered for so this really would be a last resort!

Please help someone!!!

of all and i'm sure i will not be alone on this one - You must NEVER hit/smack a dog no matter now angry you are. .. It will only make matters worse and will damage the respect a dog has for you. there is no easy, quick solution to this one - but the best way is by positive training methods i.e treats and praise. You need to go right back to square one with this recall training. Start in your garden as though your dog is a brand new pup and do the standard treat and praise training. Do this daily (at least couple of times a day) Then after a week i suggest progressing to an empty field, using a recall lead and using treats. I had a border collie who was just the same and it took a couple of years to get him sorted. Takes time and consistancy. I also used the running away technique i.e you run away as fast as you can and get you dog to follow! my border collie was so anxious that he needed to see me all the time, this seemed to work quite well. Gradually, again in an empty field, you can then try him for sort periods off the lead (5 mins mins say) using a ball to keep his attention, i.e bring back to you. always praise and finish on a good note i.e if the 3rd recall is relly good then loads of praise and put back on lead. This will also help build up your confidence! In the meantime i',m afraid until you can get control back, you will need to keep him on some sort of lead when other people or dogs are around. I have a westie now and have been using the above techniques with him and he is coming on well (8 months now) but i only let him off the lead to fetch ball, for say 5 mins, when no one on the park - he is getting really good at it. Hope this helps

hitting him and being harsh with him when you finally catch him is only going to convince him that coming back to you is not a good thing or a nice thing at all. 

If you dont like flexi leads use a long line, you can use a horses lunge line or pets shops quite often do long lines.  The line can drag on the floor behind them whilst they are free running but you can still be in control by standing on it if they go too far out and you also have something to remind them that they do need to come back to you when they are called.

Call him back to you different places on the walk and dont always put him back on the lead, give him a treat or play with him and keep it varied.

If you always put dog back on a lead at the same time on a walk they will learn this really quickly and avoid you like the plague.

Punishing a dog for not coming back will certainly make sure they don't come back! You are as the previous peope already said undermining your recall.

The best way to make sure you get a perfect recall is to keep the dog on a lead or long line all the time while you train this.  And so on walks let the line go loose and then recall many many times on the walk.   Back off and dodge away from the dog to make it hard to get to you, run away and make this hard challenging activity for the dog and then reward with something the dog loves like terrier play or terrier treats!  You want to do this for at least 6 months.

Then you can have some time off lead but only when there are not temptations that are too strong for the dog to resist.  So again keep up lots of rewarding recalls on the walks, sometimes on a long lead and sometimes off lead - as has been mentioned being on a lead should not have negative associations.

If you expose your dog to a situation that you know is too distraction for him to resist and it all goes pear shaped then 'batter' yourself and not your dog!  They fail because we expect too much from them. They are dogs. They act like dogs. It takes time and patience to teach them to act like people - if that's what we want.  To be honest I think when we do get cross with our dogs it is more frustration at our own stupidity then at our dogs.  We think why did I let them off just now when I know they won't come back or will go roll in the mud or go nick a kids ice creamm etc. or when we know we are in a hurry and don't have time to mess around. etc etc.

and I hate those extending ones, still have the scars to remind me!
I assume you mean the old 'wire' type. They can be dangerous but the long flexi leads with webbing are okay. But to train they give too much tension so something loose like a training lead is better - long enough to give a little distance to practice the recalls but not so long that it gets all tied up! 

You have a good friend too to be so honest with you! They are the kind of friends we all need.

Good luck.

Some excellent advice on further training here for Murphy.  I have to say that with our GSDs we have found recall to improve simply as they grow up a bit.  But I would emphasise as others have done NEVER chastise your dog when he returns to you.  Remember on the walk there are lovely smells, lots of great dogs and people and everything more interesting than you.  So you need to ensure that when he returns he gets a great greeting from you - lots of fuss and a treat.  Also don't let him associate coming back to you with automatically going back on the lead and finishing his walk.

On another forum I belong to someone referred to themselves as the mad owner :) I knoiw exactly what they mean.  If I can see a potential recall problem or when I am teaching recall I can be seen calling in a very yippee happy voice for my dog, jumping up and down and making coming back the most exciting thing I can lol.

Louise

Thanks to all, very good advice.

I think I may have to go back to the beginning with the recall.

I hate to say it but I became my OH that day. When Murphy does something bad my OH always says 'Well, I hope you kicked his but'!
My response was always, 'yeah, Murphy come back here so I can kick your but'............Never going to work. Its a bit like saying to your kids... Do you want a smack? You'll soon get your kids lining up for a smack!!!!

Anyway, I detract!

Murph is so good at everything else, perhaps just overexcited when visitors arrive at the house and he pees excitedly. I just ignore him and tell others to do the same. I have been told he WILL grow out of it. They do say there is nothing like a Wheaten Welcome!!!

I am going to buy a long line and try that to see if that helps. I also wonder if classes/training would help and if anyone can suggest anyone in the Glasgow area?

I did previously mention having him neutered but I dont know if this would benefit his training.
I know for cancer later in life it could cause problems, and I would prefer to keep him intact. He may just turn out to be the Wheaten Terrier Top Dog and go on to have lots of little Murphy's (Gawd forbid says my OH)

I have seen on here there are just as much problems with OH's - Should have thier own topic!!!

Or maybe its just like having troublesome kids...........Only a mother could love them!!! (Dogs that is not OH's)

one silly bit that may help YOU not Murphy, as the others said you never tell him off when he does come back but there is nothing to stop you saying... You evil scumbag I hate you , you are for the dogs home your a nasty ****** monster and I will pay the next person to take you away etc. etc as long as you can say it in a 'happy - good dog' voice. I have turned the air blue once or twice at a previous dog, as I said it doesn't improve the recall but you feel better without being negative to the dog :-).Chris

Some very good articles on here which might be of help :)

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour--training/

ex police dog instructor and canine behaviourist.

We have two wheatens - a two year old girl and a puppy, and I completely agree that sometimes it feels that teaching recall is a lost cause. Sometimes we go through a period of a few weeks when everything is wonderful and they come back even when there are other dogs to play with, but then it all seems to go to pot again. I just have to keep telling myself that their playfulness is why we love the breed - even as I'm racing across a field calling to them in a "friendly" voice and apologising to the family/picnickers/anglers who are a being jumped all over by a very agile, wet, hairy terrier.

Not to panic you, but a few weeks ago I chatted to an experienced dog handler, who shows wheatens and knows the breed well, and she said that no wheaten is any good at recall until they hit three years and then somehow they all of a sudden get it. Oh well, just another two years to go........

> I just have to keep telling myself that their playfulness is why we love the breed - even as I'm racing across a field calling to them in a "friendly" voice and apologising to the family/picnickers/anglers who are a being jumped all over by a very agile, wet, hairy terrier.
>

ROFL that made me laugh for ages, ahhhh the memories lol :) :-D

lol, my 11 month old kleekai is shocking at re-call. i was told when i got him that it would be a problem and that this breed just dosn't get re-call, however i can't help thinking that its more down to my inexperience at dog trainnning than his breed. it helps to hear that others more experienced than me still have hicups :-)
i do hope you get murphy to act like the golden boy you know is is at heart, but for now i simpithyse and awaite the next time i get that look saying "catch me if you can" lol :-D ;-)

I wont comment on the smack as I think enought said on that and I think its sheer shock that made you do it!

I treat recall as the most important lessons before sit down etc as it can be so frustrating if your dog runs off with deaf ears!

I find with my breed (not terrier) that to teach it continually in the home from a young age it becomes natural for them to come see what you want.

I always have a tub full of real meaty sausages, ham ,tasty proper food  even been known to have salmon ,not dog bis , when they are in the garden in another room of the house or even fast asleep in thier bed  I call them 'name come' sit and treat then say 'go play' you have to do this continually throughout the day ,everyday, I do it at times say when I am cooking the tea or pottering about in the house or when I see them occupied with something else , I interupt them and call, this gradually becomes a habit , I have to have control with three off lead, they will stop mid way when off to investigate to come back to me,  now that they are all over 2yr I dont treat much but they will always come to see what I want and if anything is on offer.

I also let puppies off lead from thier first visit to the park as I find the earlier you do it they tend not  to  wander far from you from lack of a little confidence ,then as it builds up you use the recall treat etc and work on from there.

this is the advice I  have given all my puppy families and they have all said it has worked for them in the past.

I had a look at this website mentioned in a previous post and it is truly brilliant.
I really liked the method of training your dog not to chase, and thought it made excellent training for a play orientated dog to near perfect recall.
I wish i'd seen this before we had our current dog, and had to go through hoops to improve his recall.
Even though he is now heaps better, he was terrible when we were on holiday and wouldn't go back to his carer!
I have spent a few days playing this game with him, and he is now turning on a sixpence to recall (for me, at least, we'll see about others).

It is a good article, I am glad it is proving useful to you :)

A "predictive" recall is, IMO, the best method of training for this.

Best wishes
Lindsay

Can you explain what is meant by 'predictive recall' please.
Thanks.

A good article Lindsay - I left the relationship page open for my hubby to read - caught his eye because the dog looks quite like our Meg!
Christine

Can you explain what is meant by 'predictive recall' please.
Thanks.

Yes, it's explained in the article about chase recall, here's a bit from the article referring to it:

Predictive Command - The Best Recall Ever
Now introduce your recall command. Call, "toy!" in a bright and breezy voice every time you throw the toy for your dog. Pretty soon your dog will associate the word with the unconditional arrival of the toy. Start to use it when your dog is not expecting it. Call, "toy!" and as soon as your dog looks, throw it behind you. The word becomes predictive that there is a game on offer.

and of course the whole article needs to be read to understand it, including the neural connections bit :)

I love that we can see the short videos which help to explain things.
I believe Belle was his working police dog, now a pet, but am not totally sure on that.

A good article Lindsay - I left the relationship page open for my hubby to read - caught his eye because the dog looks quite like our Meg!
Christine

Aha very good move there Christine! :) :)

Glad you enjoyed it. I think it's one of the best small websites offering advice.

this does work but I didnt learn it from a book or website so glad to hear its common place

I use ball but you have to be careful not to use it at other times its become a word I have to 'whisper' LOL

Sorry i didn't remember it was called 'predictive' recall in the article - but you are right it is fantastically clever.