Hi all

This is my first post and this forum looks like a good place to get some advice.

My Cavalier King Charles bitch puppy came into season for the first time on 18th Aug.  She is now in her third week and has been discharging blood throughout.  It went paler in the 2nd week but it has now gone a very dark brownish, reddish, almost black colour.  And there's quite a lot of it (compared to the first week).  I rang the vets this morning and they had me to go straight there.  The vet took her temperature and I showed him a piece of tissue with the blood/discharge on.  The temperature was fine and there are no symptoms (as far as we can tell) but he diagnosed Pyometra. 

She has now started a weeks course of antibiotics - he said that the cervix must be open as the discharge is being released and so he did not do an Xray (this is used when the cervix seems to be closed).  He stated that there is only a 50% chance of the antobiotics working and to keep a very close watch on her as she may need surgery if the infection gets worse.

Now, I'm a bit confused as I thought this infection comes on 1-2 months after heat.  But she's still on heat - in her third week.  Could it be something else other than Pyometra?  The vet seemed certain that it was this.

I'm gutted because I planned on breeding her when she's older - not for money but because I love the breed and she has a very good pedigree ancestery.  She's so beautiful and is a perfect example of her breed so to spay her would be awful.  I'm hoping it is not Pyometra because if it is I would put her health first and spay her if that's what needs to be done.  If anyone here has some knowledge I would be very grateful as I'm hoping it is something less serious.

she on 16 days in her season !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did the vet not say she should be spayed? I thought it was usual with pyo, though it's unusual (not impossible) to have it so young. Poor puppy!

I'm sorry to read your puppy is so unwell but at least you noticed in good time and she is receiving treatment.

Your vet's opinion carries much more value than anyone on an internet forum as he not only has the professional training and expertise in this matter but has had the benefit of examining your youngster and reaching a professional diagnosis.

That pyo only happens several weeks after seasons is a guide only and I have personally known bitches develop it mid-season.  On the plus side your girl  sounds to be in good shape (i.e. not worrying you obviously in behaviour etc) and with treatment and careful observation she will hopefully make a full recovery.  Personally I would neuter a bitch that had such problems as often those affected so early in life have an increased chance of recurring problems and it is in her best interests therefore to prevent that happening.

It is a life threatening condition so please be vigilant for any signs of changes in her behaviour, disinterest in food and increased drinking of water are often signs that something is amiss.

regards, Teri

I very much doubt that your puppy has a pyometra, as Briedog says, she's only on day 16 of her season and that being the case, the discharge would be quite normal. If her temperature is not elevated, she can't have an infection going on I'd have thought.

Of course it goes without saying, if you're at all worried about your puppy's health, you should see your vet, so you must continue to observe her closely, but, for what it's worth, I think this isn't pyometra.

Dawn R.

Although unusual it is not impossible for pyo to be present during a season - Granted the bloody discharge would be foul smelling, not merely dark blood, and the fact that the season is ongoing is helpful as pus is being discharged but infection can still be present and pus visible before other physical changes are noted.

Yes I know that Terri, I didn't say it was impossible.

I'll keep my gob shut shall I.

Dawn R. (RGN, EN(G).

> If her temperature is not elevated, she can't have an infection going on I'd have thought.
>

You can have no temperature with an infection.  With abcesses it can also be the case that the temperature swings, being quite normal most of the time and then rising a couple of times a day.

Thank you all for your replies :o)

There is definately something wrong because there is a lot of discharge - I can see that it's not a normal amount for a dog so little.  The hair around her 'moo moo' (sorry, that's what we call it LOL) is hardened with blood and it was all over the skin and dried on black - this happened when she has been constantly keeping herself clean and I have been rinsing her regularly in that area.  She's been sleeping for a while but I just picked her up and the sheet she was laying on is heavily stained.  It definately looks wrong. 

I was just hoping there was another cause other than pyo.  She's so perfect in every other way and I've been so looking forward to getting involved with breeders and learning about breeding so that she could have her own litter one day.  But I would have to have her spayed if it definately is pyo - I couldn't put her at risk like that.  I'm gutted because I have a 2 year old male Cavalier who I decided not to breed from because he has ear infections a lot and makes funny breathing noises and now my baby too!!

I just hope the antibiotics work before she gets any symptoms.  She's had diarrhea for a few days so that must be to do with the infection.

My first Spanish had pyometra at the age of 11, was given a strong course of a weeks antibiotics (spaying wasn't even mentioned) within 4 days she was drinking normally and back to her old self, never to ahve a problem again.  Now I don't know whether it was just coincidence but whilst on the weeks worth of antibiotics the one eye that she had glaucoma in went right down and for the next year and a half it never swelled up again (when she was eventually put down due to going blind and deaf at around the same time and being unable to cope).  It was so noticeable that people in the breed couldn't even make out which was the bad eye.

I hope she is better soon.  I really would not worry about the breeding as this is such a long shot.  She may not have done well when your idea that she is a perfect example was put to the test in the show ring or passed the health tests that as such an issue for this breed.  The main thing is that she gets better.

Many years ago spaying was the only cure for Pyrometra however with the current AB's available treatment has changed dramatically John Allinson you may wish to print off the link & show it to your vet. John does know what he is writing about

Treating early onset open pyometras medically, or initially treating medically anyway, has been around as long as I can remember :-)

Not in the 1950s wasn't I did write Many years ago-sadly I was around in the 1950s !

Yes, I think I am about a decade behind you ;-)

Hi Isabel

I know what you mean - I'd rather her be healthy and well but as I have no kids it's kind of like being told you won't be a granny LOL!  I'll just have to get over it if she needs to be spayed.

I didn't want to breed her for showing because I don't like the whole dog show thing.  I know opinions vary but I'm not too keen on seeing dogs - or people for that matter - getting prizes for looks.  But please don't shoot me for my opinion - I know it's a contraversial one!!  She has some small white markings on her chest which renders her unfit for showing and the pups would probably have this too - but to me the little white bits give her character and set her apart - I suppose most people in the show circle would disagree with me saying she's perfect but I'd rather my dog have white bits on her chest than have half the illnesses some of those show dogs have.  I'm all for the breed but I wish there was more emphasis on breeding them to be healthy rather than looking a precise and certain way!

I suppose I've contradicted myself there by saying she's a perfect example of her breed but it comes down to what I believe dog breeding to be.  For healthy and happy dogs but not inbreeding to make their noses shorter or their legs longer etc.

I guess mine's not so healthy after all but at least I'll still have my little princess!  She's playing tug-of-war with her Billy Boy now so she still seems to be herself!

I'll keep posting updates for anyone interested!

I hope your girl will be alright. My Papillons bleed a lot when in season and the fur gets very stained and yes caked with blood, but you're right, it doesn't sound normal that there should be a lot just were she has been asleep.

Just IN CASE you don't know -before breeding Cavaliers there are a lot of health tests that MUST be done in this breed. Hearts have to be checked, eyes, patellae, and an MRI scan for Syringomyelia. Both parents must be at least 2 ½ years old and all four grandparents of any pups should be at least 5 years old and still have clear hearts. Just mentioning this so you realise there's quite a lot involved with breeding Cavaliers, more so than with a lot of other breeds in fact- and your bitch may not turn out to be suitable as you won't even know until she's over 2 years and has had all tests. Sorry if you already were aware of it.

> I know opinions vary but I'm not too keen on seeing dogs - or people for that matter - getting prizes for looks. 

Would you have not been dreadfully disappointed if your bitch had not turned out to look like a Cavalier?  You maybe don't realise it but, with very very few exceptions, there are no prizes in showing. Not cash or similar, anyway. The prize is knowing that you are on the right lines to produce puppies that will please their buyers as much as you are with yours.  Very hard to do if you don't show.

> Yes I know that Terri, I didn't say it was impossible.
>
> I'll keep my gob shut shall I.
>
> Dawn R. (RGN, EN(G).

No need Dawn -  I didn't say you stated it impossible did I   You gob off as much as you like,

Teri B (ME, M/S, I)
I can add my post code too if you like :-D

To OP,

hopefully your girl will make a full and speedy recovery - do keep us updated when you can :)

FWIW there's much useful info to be had from many on here re essential health tests before breeding, even more so for the breed you have.  Did you see that awful programme last week Pedigree Dogs Exposed?  Tragic how badly affected Cavaliers are in particular when bred by folks who neither know enough or should know better :(

Good luck with your girl,
Teri
I'll skip the initials ;) )

MarianneB - Thanks for the info - I did know all that already but thanks anyway - you have given great advice.  I never go into anything without being educated on it - I'm a bit of a stickler for doing things the correct way which can be quite irritating on times!!  I'm glad there are knowlegeable people like you online to advise though coz I've come across so many people who just want to breed to make a quick buck and don't care about the health of the dogs and don't even know how to mate them let alone rear pups.   

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I was looking forward to getting into breeding and would never breed from an unhealthy dog/bitch.  I had the full intentions of getting her health checked and also making sure that the stud had his checks too.  After watching that TV programme I looked into Syringomyelia and rang the vets to find out how I get the checks etc - I knew I'd have to wait until she's older and that it would be expensive but I was looking into things in advance so that I had enough knowledge by the time she was old enough.  I've been reading books and have really enjoyed looking into it.  I checked her ancestry and health/age of parents when I bought her - I spent a long time searching for the right bitch - both as a companion and to breed - and I bought her from a Vet who had the same idea's as me and who was also particular about the health and upbringing of the pups.  I knew I would have to wait until she was older to know if she was good enough to breed from but finding this out now when I had high hopes has really gutted me.  But at least I know now rather than later! 

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That TV programme had me in tears.  And some of the winning dogs had the disease - that's partly why I sometimes don't like the whole dog showing thing!  I don't know a lot about dog shows but it doesn't appeal to me.  It's one thing breeding to a standard but it's another thing to be inbreeding unhealthy dogs just to get certain asthetic results that can often end up with dogs that have bad health problems.  And as I understand it, many of them end up changing the dogs so much from what they originally looked like.

Many people around here breed dogs without kennel club reg and I doubt very much that they think about health etc!  I disagree with that because if they keep diluting the breeds we could lose the distinguished breeds as we now know them.  However, I don't think that you have to breed pedigree's just for show purposes - people want pedigrees for all sorts of reasons - usually they like a particular breed and want one as a loyal and loving companion and family member and not necessarily to be scrutinised by judges!!

Anyway, enough of that - maybe I'm not well enough informed but that's my opinion as it stands at the moment - maybe it will change with more knowledge.  I'm gonna end up starting a war with people who don't agree with me!

Sadie is still not showing any other symptoms so fingers crossed that the discharge will clear up and then I can get advice from the vet on the next steps.  Spaying her is probably the route we'll have to go down but I would still like to breed in the future (with some new family members) and may go and get some experience from an established kennel or something. 

A general question - but has anyone considered that, as with other things, early onset pyos could have a hereditary component and by breeding from them it could perpetuate the problem? Haven't seen any research on the subject - I just wondered. A - 'can be done, but should it be done?' thing.

It is amazing, how much dogs do bleed when they are in heat, or should I say can bleed?  My girl Cher, she sleeps in my bed, and the one morning I woke up, I saw all this blood.  I was like "great!" thinking the obvious (me being a woman).   But no, it was Cher. 

She had a prolonged season, and the vets thought pyo as well.  But she had no fever, and it was just bleeding heavy.  She was raw on her vulva, from all the licking she was doing, so I had to put some cream on it (forget what it was, and dont have the bottle sitting at the computer lol). 

Dawn, what on earth are you doing quoting your nursing qualifications? What has that got to do with the price of fish?

>to me the little white bits give her character and set her apart - I suppose most people in the show circle would disagree with me saying she's perfect but I'd rather my dog have white bits on her chest than have half the illnesses some of those show dogs have.

The mismarks should be just as healthy as the 'show' dogs, because they often come from the same litters. Beware people who breed just for the pet market, because that's where the problems are magnified.

Munrogirl, I've only had one dog with it as I say she was cured with antibiotics, her daughter will be 15 next month and has never had it.  Grand-daughter is 8 and hasn't had it, touch wood.

please let us know how your pup goes on hope everything turns out ok

Sorry - what on earth is a "Moo Moo"?

> Sorry - what on earth is a "Moo Moo"?

They are 'Foo-Foos' in our family!!  :) :)

I would be asking for a second opinion having had mis diagnosis before from vets myself  and so has a good friend of mine .(who lost her bitch because of it)

If you are not happy ask for a referral to a hospital.

Roni

Hope she is ok

i really do hope your wee girl does not have a pyo callackl. if your unsure about the diagnosis i think maybe do as the others have said and look to get a 2nd opinion. there is nothing wrong with that and with something as serious your best to be sure. if it is though heres hoping the anti b's pull her through it. not an area i am that informed about but i hope that since shes young she'll manage through it ok :)

just in response to your comments about THAT show (not starting a war people!) and you saying  > maybe I'm not well enough informed but that's my opinion as it stands at the moment - maybe it will change with more knowledge.

i'd suggest that you have a wee shifty at some of the other threads about it, they are interesting reading. people who show do so from a deep love of their dogs and their breed. you mentioned before about diluting the breeds and going away from what they should be? well thats what shows are designed to prevent, the judging simply goes for whichever dog is the best example of its breed- its not about prettiness trust me! else many of the group i prefer would never get BIS lol :)

anyway, if your interested in learning about that there are pleanty who will be happy to talk about it, esp for your breed as there are loads of cav people on the board :)

> They are 'Foo-Foos' in our family!! 

my sis calls her girls her 'yoni'- it means 'the divine passage' lol

Just a note the the OP posted on 4th September, So they will know by now one way or another :)
I hope she if fine now :)
Lea :) :)

oops, didn't notice that lol.

>> Sorry - what on earth is a "Moo Moo"?
> They are 'Foo-Foos' in our family!!  :) :)

They are girlie bits, or their proper name, 'Vulva' in mine.

Thanks Brainless. My mind went through Duvet, Comforter and Security Blanket. How odd to rename body parts. Doesn't bode well for a sensible breeding carreer does it? Not even for the pet market.

Sorry - what on earth is a "Moo Moo"?

Its one of my girls Nick names is what is it........Mitzy AKA Mitzy Moo Moo as she is a little fatty :) lol!!

Never heard of it as a name for female parts lol I always called them parts Foo Foo's LOL ;)