Just after any info really, in particular on the breed's health issues and health tests that should be done on breeding dogs.

I'm just starting to research min pins - after a pup in a training class a few years back, an adult along the seafront yesterday and already owning dobes, I'm falling for the little guys.

I'm well aware they aren't miniature dobes, before anyone leaps at that :-) It's the look that attracted me, and the spirit.  I adore dobes and always will (and certainly am not going to give them up), but the smaller size is appealing - having four large dogs at the moment, costs are high and in the future I would like to give small dogs a try.

We're talking as long as 10 years down the line - I'm not going to get any more dogs until at least the dobes have passed on (and Remy, youngest, is 5 so a while yet) and possibly not until my rott mix girl has gone too - that could be another 10 years (she is also 5).  So it's conjecture at the moment, but I thought I'd use all that time to really get a handle on the breed - or similar breeds, if min pins aren't quite right.  I have looked at german pinschers, manchester terriers and english toy terriers as well (note the appearance theme :-P), but I keep coming back to min pins - there's just something about them.

Min pins are wonderful little dogs.  They are highly trainable, very active, and big clowns. 

Min Pins are a relatively healthy breed.  The main problems with the breed are patellas, Leggs Calves Perthes Disease (LCPD), and thyroid.  There is also a debate going on, in which min pin breeders are now thinking this breed could also be prone (for lack of better words) to VWD. 

I can understand why you like the min pin, when you already love dobes.  They look similar, and act very similar as well.  But a great deal smaller.  And a lot longer life span (avg 15 years). 

Some of the less common, but breed specific health problems are:
- MPSVI (cant actually spell out the whole word) which is a mutation of one of the genes which causes their legs to go like pretzels.  They turn in and under on themselves.  Usually shows up at birth, or a week or two after.  They cant straighten their legs.  Surgery is needed to repair this.  There is a test for this, which will tell you if the dog is clear, carrier, or affected.  As some other diseases can also do the same symptoms to a dog. 

- Disk Degeneration of the spine.  Kinda like what you see in Daxies.  Again, not common.

More Health Issues:
Dental: Keeping Teeth Clean (harder with the smaller mouths, therefor can lead to dental diseases)

Eyes:  Glaucoma, Renal Atrophy, Cataracts

GastroIntestinal: HEPATIC VASCULAR DISORDER

Skin Disorders:  Demodex, Hair Loss, Skin Infections

Here is a site, that may help you as well: Canada's Guide to Dogs: Miniature Pinscher:
http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/minpinscher.htm
http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/doberman/minpinscherhealth.htm

Fantastic, thank you!  I had a feeling you might answer ;-)

I've been reading about the blues and fawns, am I right in thinking they can suffer from CDA the same as the blue and fawn dobes do?  My dobe boy is a fawn so I'm a little biased towards them :-) Plenty of experience with CDA too as he has just about the worst coat I've ever seen on a dobe of any colour.  Well, lack of coat I should say!

What about German Pnchers.

Blue and fawn (isabella) min pins, are not recognized as colours.  There are breeders though, who are trying to pass the blue colour as a recognized colour, but many min pin fanciers, do not want this to happen.  Mainly because it is a mutation of the black gene (which is already recessive) and it does come with health problems, two being skin and coat problems.  I know of a few breeders, who are purposely trying to breed for blues and fawns.  Yet, in the min pin breed, it is looked down upon, just like the white dobermans. 

CDA is common in the lighter mutation colours.  Also, they seem (from what I have read and heard) are more common to other breed specific aliments. 

I do like the fawn dobes, and there is a fantastic bitch here in Canada, who doesnt have a skin problem and has produced many champions. 

But as far as coats, the colour is kinda flipped.  In Dobes, the black and rust coats are the dominant colour, followed by reds and rusts, and then your blues and fawns.  In min pins, your reds are the dominant (going from a clear red - no black hairs on the dog - to a stag red - red with intermixed black hairs).  Then it is the black and rust, then chocolate, then your blues and fawns.  The farther down the list you go, it seems to have more health issues.  Because of the reccessive genes needed to make the colours. 

I personally, would steer clear of the blue and isabella min pins.  And definately steer clear of what they are calling harliquen min pins.  (looks like a harliquin great dane). 

German Pinschers, are really nothing like the min pin or the dobe.  They are very headstrong, tend to be very dog aggressive, and the gene pool is very small. 

Even though the creater of both the min pin and the dobe, are said to have used the German Pinscher as its foundation, the dog is quite different from the temperments of its two offspring breeds. 

They are quick to guard, and usually ask later about whether it was the right choice.  Even though they are loyal and protective of their family (good) they are also loyal and protective of their toys (bad).  They are a breed that needs firm, but consistant handling.  They are also a breed that is URGED to get into obedience training right away, as they will take over your house.  And not in a way you want. 

They need a very experienced owner.

I am not saying dobes and min pins dont need all the above things, but the German Pinscher seems to take it to the next level. 

> I personally, would steer clear of the blue and isabella min pins.  And definately steer clear of what they are calling harliquen min pins.  (looks like a harliquin great dane).

I have read about the harlequins - hardly purebred min pins!

I am keen to go down the rescue route with min pins - if I did go down the route of buying a pup, I would not buy from a breeder who has intentionally bred blues and isabellas - just as I would not from a dobe breeder, but if an isabella had popped up in a litter unplanned then I would consider it.  As I said, I am a little biased ;-)

I meant to say, I'd read something like you describe about the german pinschers but oddly enough, most of the sites I look at don't seem keen to talk about the negatives!

I can understand the difficult temperament, with them supposedly being the dobe's ancestor - after all, dobes had a much sharper temperament decades ago.

How do the min pins fair with kids?  Life has changed somewhat this year and kids are now on the cards.  Obviously kids woulod be trained as well :-) If there's one thing I can't stand, it's those parents who don't train their kids to behave properly around dogs.

I wonder if it is a localised thing as the German Pinchers I have met over the years I would say are easier than Dobes, the spunkiest and most hyper are the Mins, then the most guardy the Dobes with the German Pinchers far more middle of the road.

I know a lot of dobes very well, and know a few min pins not quite as well, but all the ones I have met are Gasbags and very noisty and inclined to have a go at other dogs, but this seems to be the usual Napoleon syndrome that many toy breeds are allowed by theri owners to exhibit, they seem to think it cute..

Min Pins are not a dog that can (or should I say, should) rough and tumble.  Kids tend to play rough with dogs, but if you have "trained" kids, then I would see no harm in getting a min pin in the mix. 

At the moment, I am working very hard to socialize my dogs around kids.  I dont have any kids, and my sister and I are currently the youngest in the family (at almost 24 years old).  So to try and socialize them has been a bit difficult.  And it seems kids in my area, arent dog trained, and have chased the min pins, and come at them in big groups.  Min Pins dont like that at all!!!!! 

Now, I am not saying they are china dolls, and they will play rather rough if they can, but they arent big dogs, and can get hurt easily. 

As far as people (breeders) not talking about the negatives with their dogs, then I would also steer clear of that too!  I am the first to tell people the negatives about min pins, and would never portray them as perfect dogs.  No breed is perfect, and I think breeders should be open and honest about the good things about the breed, as well as the bad things. 

So just incase, throughout my many posts, I havent been to clear about the negatives of min pins, here it goes:
- very active (ie never really sleep, they are on the go all the time) but that could be a good thing, if you are an active person
- very much so a One Person Dog.  They will try and protect the whole family, and they will love their whole family, but they will choose one person, to be attached at the hip too. 
- they can be barkers.  But training can help
- they are smart, but stubborn!!!!
- they do have the identity conflict, and think they are big.  Normally, they dont start fights, but they dont back down from one!
- can be chewers.

I know a lot of dobes very well, and know a few min pins not quite as well, but all the ones I have met are Gasbags and very noisty and inclined to have a go at other dogs, but this seems to be the usual Napoleon syndrome that many toy breeds are allowed by theri owners to exhibit, they seem to think it cute..

I hate it when I see toy breeds being carried around, and allowed to bark and growl at everything.  My view is this: if I wouldnt let a bigger dog (ie dobe) get away with it, neither is my min pin!  They are dogs, and should be treated as any other dog! 

I have read about the harlequins - hardly purebred min pins!

Apparently, back in the day, there were harlequin min pins.  Eventually, the colour was bred out, and we have the min pins we see today. 

Some breeders (well I know of two) are trying to bring the colour back, but they are mixing the min pin with the Rat Terrier to achieve this.  Apparently, the United Kennel Club (which is in charge of keeping records on "rare" breeds, before they are recognized within the AKC and the CKC) is registering them as the "Harliquin Pinscher". 

Sad Sad days for the min pin, if that happens!

I wonder if it is a localised thing as the German Pinchers I have met over the years I would say are easier than Dobes, the spunkiest and most hyper are the Mins, then the most guardy the Dobes with the German Pinchers far more middle of the road.

That's been the impression I got aswell.  I've only met a couple of GPs but have discussed with other owners of them the similarities, as they have been a breed that I have been interested in and they have seemed to be quite easy in comparison to the Dobe.  They aren't very common though.

The negatives don't look too bad - actually, not a problem at all, as my current dogs (the two dobes, Soli and Remy, labXcollie River, and rott mix Opi) all display these to an extent.  Soli and River are always on the go; Soli LOVES to use her voice; Remy is most assuredly my dog and always has been, as is Opi (and Remy and River both follow me everywhere); smart and stubborn is standard issue here (Remy is this personifed!); River will destroy my sofa if she doesn't get enough input, and River has that 'I won't back down' thing going on too.  So nothing I don't already live with!!

> I hate it when I see toy breeds being carried around, and allowed to bark and growl at everything.  My view is this: if I wouldnt let a bigger dog (ie dobe) get away with it, neither is my min pin!  They are dogs, and should be treated as any other dog! 

This is my view exactly.  One thing that irritates me immensely with little dogs is the owners' view that as they are little they can get away with behaving little utter little nightmares - if Soli behaved like a lot of littluns I see behave, I would have a serious (and probably dangerous) problem on my hands.  Actually, I did - her last owner let her get away with damn near everything (to the point that Soli bit her once and she had to go to A&E, a fact she neglected to tell me when I took Soli on).  So having lived with such a dog, and retrained it, there is no way I would tolerate *any* dog behaving like it.  Training is paramount (and I've been doing a foundation degree in it for 3 years!)!

As for kids - there are a few round my way to socialise with, and although they could be rough, they seem to listen to me - I get much respect for being th lady with the four big dogs that she walks altogether :-) and the kids do listen because of that.  They are gentle with my current lot so I'm not worried, and of course my own would be brought up to respect all animals (as I was).