wonder if anyone else saw Oprah on sky - diva - last night, think it started at 10pm. very upseting film from some of the places but the whole push was 'don't buy from pet stores' and 'get a puppy from a reputable breeder'. also quite a bit about rescue shelters and their work and rehoming methods. Some friend had sponsored an elderly cocker for Oprah as a Xmas present and Oprah visited the shelter and then gave them $10,000 cheque. (I know she can easily afford it but a nice gesture). Also had someone from AKC in the audience and saying their bit. The whole prog was such a contrast to THAT one on beeb. Undercover film was dated in corner as 6 March 08 so by the time it was all put together it must be a fairly new programme. Going by the 'oprah effect' she had on beef during the BSE panic it will be interesting to see what this does in US in next few months.
Chris

i will look out for it hopfuly they will replay it !!!!

It was actually aired a few months ago in the states and on-line.

Yes, this was on a while ago - I think I watched on Youtube. The puppy mill situation is really bad in the US, they have so many pet stores that sell puppies, they also have the dog auctions and large puppy 'brokers' to contend with. Glad Oprah is getting the message out there. We need to have a programe like this over here - I know GMTV briefly covered puppy farms recently, and there was a regional programme on the BBC about puppy farms a few years ago - but I think someone needs to educate the general public a bit more. 

I saw it when it aired on TV, and here, the reaction wasnt good.  I mean, the show did have a good message behind it, stop puppy mills, but a lot of people were reacting to WHO she had on the program, not what was said.  She had the president from HSUS on, and apparently, HSUS is a bad organization.  They dont stop puppy mills, they just take the pups.  Not the bitches and studs apparently.  I can only go by what was said on several forums and lists, as I personally dont know much about the HSUS. 

It sounds really intresting and one I would deffo want to watch, does anyone know if it will be aired over here?

you can get it on Youtube.com  if you dont want to wait until it is aired again. 

I'd really like to see them bring irresponsible back yard breeders into question as well. And the idea that if you have dog you must breed from it. It's shocking the number of people who talk about offering their dog for stud when walking about. Or how many times I'm asked if I'm going to breed my dogs. I know a woman at our training club had a litter from her boxer bitch. Unregistered, no health test and the stud was selected by choosing the first entire boxer she could get over to the house. Ten pups and £7000 later she's now bought a dog puppy to use to churn out more litters. :(

And that leads to another pet peeve - people who start advertising their dogs for stud when they're still puppies. Bad enough that there's been no health checks, you don't really know what the temperament of your dog will end up as until it's an adult. My own dog is quite different now at 3 YO to how he was when he was under 2. It's all about getting money in their pockets. Puppy farms are horrendous for the dogs involved BYB and those that hop on to earn some cash are the one's really generating most of dogs that end up in rescue.

Oh I fully agree Lori. Can't believe some people use pups as stud dogs. Wonder what difference it will MAKE to the temperament as well?! Can imagine house training will go to pot for life as well. Once upon a time people bought a male dog if they wanted a pet, maybe to work and show as well -stud work never even entered their heads. It's seriously scary.

Will have to try and catch up with this programme as it sounds interesting.

It seems the dog world is ever under scrutiny and with the recent televised debacle I wish the producers would go the whole hog and tackle the real source of problems in the pedigree world - BYB and puppy farmers

Totally agree Lori with much of what you write.  The world and its wife seem to be obsessed with breeding.  I'm constantly questioned about how much pups in our breed sell for by folks clearly more interested in acquiring a bitch for the wrong reasons - the more 'unusual' the breed the higher they perceive prices to be sadly.  Moreover I've already been asked about my 8 month puppy being a stud dog!!!!!!!!!!  For goodness sake, how will I know his potential until his health checks (hips and eyes) are done with - essentially - excellent results?  And none of this able to be assessed until he's over a year old.   Also I will want to know how his littermates' health fares too as all of this and so much more will impact on whether or not I agree in the future to allow him to be used at all.

Heaven help the more popular breeds - Labs, Goldens, Staffs, CKC etc :(  Small wonder pups are so readily available week in week out in all the free ad and pet sites yet rarely are responsible breeders credited for their efforts to produce quality rather than quantity :(

Puppy farmers don't have to live in the 'farming' community - more often than not they live in heavily built up areas and call themselves "hobby breeders"  

> And that leads to another pet peeve - people who start advertising their dogs for stud when they're still puppies. Bad enough that there's been no health checks, you don't really know what the temperament of your dog will end up as until it's an adult.

Oh I absolutely agree, in fact I was looking at a website just the other day and saw a young pup advertised at stud, enquire now for when he's 9 months old!! I would never consider using a stud that wasn't at least 3 and had proved himself in the show ring (or agility, obedience, whatever you're breeding for). Particularly in the 'popular' breeds, where you will have hundreds of studs to choose from what on earth can a pup offer - of course BYBs are only interested in the closest dogs and the quickest £££s.

>a 6 month old pup advertised at stud...not till he's 9 months old though!!

You're joking, surely? Particularly in the light of the BBC programme highlighting the stupidity of breeding from un-health-tested animals, how can anyone possibly know how a puppy is going to turn out? To use a puppy at stud is highly irresponsible.

> Bad enough that there's been no health checks, you don't really know what the temperament of your dog will end up as until it's an adult.

Yes, all that but I do wonder if, following that programme, we will now see a rise in the stud offered with all the tests as the be all and end all and still nothing to show the evidence of its quality or temperament either because it has never been shown or is too young still to show the finished animal.

Yes, all that but I do wonder if, following that programme, we will now see a rise in the stud offered with all the tests as the be all and end all and still nothing to show the evidence of its quality or temperament either because it has never been shown or is too young still to show the finished animal.
I mentioned this a couple of years ago or so. I call these people the new breed of puppy farmers. They health test, they have good pedigrees, they even have animals that could do well at shows. Yet they don't show, have no intention of showing, breed despite being totally new to a breed, offer stud work (and use the word "studding"! Anyone EVER heard a proper breeder say that? I certainly have not) and OUTWARDLY look good (so that they can charge large amounts of money due t being responsible), but if you check into things closer, it's just a puppy farmer in disguise. It's all done for money. I know somebody who made a living like this. A GOOD living. All animals were caged like rabbits as well.

> Puppy farms are horrendous for the dogs involved BYB and those that hop on to earn some cash are the one's really generating most of dogs that end up in rescue.

the satatistics quoted here http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm would tend to ageree with you that the vast majority of the problem is with the casual breeder, not the puppy farms as such.

> and use the word "studding"! Anyone EVER heard a proper breeder say that? I certainly have not

:-D I'm so glad you mentioned that Marianne, it drives me daft every time I see it written on here, it's not a word I'd ever heard before. Which leads me to another point about the website in question. Young stud's sire has a ShCM - and the owner of young stud thinks this makes him a show champion! We're not born knowing everything, but if you don't even know the basics please don't start breeding.

>Young stud's sire has a ShCM - and the owner of young stud thinks this makes him a show champion!

That would come under the category of 'misleading information' under Trading Standards, wouldn't it? And therefore an offence?

Young stud's sire has a ShCM - and the owner of young stud thinks this makes him a show champion! We're not born knowing everything, but if you don't even know the basics please don't start breeding.

Blimey. Is it even a gundog breed or border collie so that it ever COULD be a show champion?

> Young stud's sire has a ShCM - and the owner of young stud thinks this makes him a show champion!

I'm pretty new to showing and even I know the difference between a certificate of merit, ShCM and SH CH (unless it's not a gundog in which case it would be CH)

> That would come under the category of 'misleading information' under Trading Standards, wouldn't it? And therefore an offence?

I would assume that was seen as false advertising under the trading standards. If you bought a puppy thinking their grand sire was a CH you'd be in for a surprise - and probably a refund.

>Blimey. Is it even a gundog breed or border collie so that it ever COULD be a show champion?

This is very true Marianne.. the breed in question, cannot ever be a show champion... there is no pre-requisite format allowing this... quite frightening that this person is advertising a 6month old pup at stud..

I wonder if she realises the legal implications of many of the statements on her website, false advertising for a start, come under trading standards legislation..

What is more worrying, that with this very basic lack of knowledge, she is encouraging other would be breeders, and many of those will hold much of what is being stated as gospel... breeders, stud owners, are the breeds caretakers of the future...

brining up the point of studs... studding is just never a term used in breeding... and very rarely does a breeder states she even has a stud dog... to be perfectly honest.. only the few top breeders actually own 'Stud Dogs'... most of us have dogs that are used occassionally at stud... they are not Stud dogs...

I wonder where we, as breeders are going wrong... is this the future of young and novice breeding.. are we losing the plot... where is the original reason for breeding.. the years of research, the waiting.. the achievement of that 1st win.. then 1st BOB, and the absolute joy of taking a G1... and thats just at open level.. what has happened to the pleasure of showing, have we thrown it all away for a quick buck, have we chucked everything that decades of breeders have worked so very hard to gain respect for the breed, (any breed) to have it all thrown away... ..

so many points to ponder... but wonder if will be noted

What an excellent post Kay -and I agree so much with you. Every word. I just don't GET it. All these people seem to be doing things the backwards way around, or not doing the full circle. I.e. to me it was always a case of buy a pet, get interested in showing, buy a show dog and DO something with it, and then, for me, 20 odd years later, breed. I've not even entered the stage of ever having used a male dog of my OWN for breeding. I HAVE a decent male dog (been graded excellent twice by foreign judges this year, had one champ.ship show BD this year and one last), but I wouldn't dream of advertising him for stud. If the right person with the right bitch came along and asked I might consider it at some point (although he hasn't even been hip scored yet, aged 2 ½ as I've seen no immediate need, do the bitches first) -but I could never imagine going out there and offering him to people. It's just not DONE.

but I could never imagine going out there and offering him to people. It's just not DONE.

Not by ethical breeders Marianne - but then there are those who think they are but their actions prove differently :(

I just checked the Oxford dictionary, and there is no such word as "studding" for any other use than applying studs to clothes/boots etc or saying the sky was studded with stars. :) Guess it's used by the same kind of people who say they have had their bitch "spaded". (At least those are more responsible!)
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/stud_2?view=uk The word stud
http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&freesearch=studding&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact the word studding

> I just checked the Oxford dictionary, and there is no such word as "studding"

Oh that's a relief :-)

I'm starting to think we could write a list of how to spot a back yard breeder. I'll start:

*Advertises in free ads -and only there with the exception of their own website
*Have a dog they are "studding" and advertise it as available
*Breeds from their first ever dog
*Do not show

Anyone care to add?

I've got a great list...

http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm

Strangely I also tend to find they are more aggressive in berating others who are seeming to do the same.. Pot and Kettle spring to mind... I wonder if they feel its a pathway to self justification? 

I find majority of responsible breeders, while stating their worries, are more inclined to be more level headed and put forward the pro's and con's in a more sensible fashion...

Its very subtle.. .. but ..most sensible people pick up on this very quickly,  ;-)

that is excellent Charlie72... :-)

Looking further into this, the breeder of the young pup concerned is also stating show champion sired on their website and this is far more worrying as they are producing puppies and have been for awhile, a mentor is only as good as they are themselves :-(

You're right, that is far more worrying. I almost feel sorry for the person concerned if this is where they're getting advice from :-(

I'm starting to think we could write a list of how to spot a back yard breeder. I'll start:

*Advertises in free ads -and only there with the exception of their own website

Not wishing to conflict with you, but on the 'free sites' I have visited it seems top class show/working/OB/agility  people use them to advertise their puppies also, and of course their leads to their websites are there, with available stud dogs offered. Many AB breeders also advertise, one such current ad suprised me. From a show home, both parents SH CH, advert starts in capitals 'REDUCED FOR QUICK SALE..... We are a KENNEL CLUB ACCREDITED BREEDER'.........

Now, I know I'm all for reducing prices to find a puppy a home, but this really is not the way I meant and shreeks of BYB and get rid quick even though they have made up their own bitch and the sire is a sh ch. Are the lines between a 'good' breeder and the BYB begining to blur somewhat?

>> Not wishing to conflict with you, but on the 'free sites' I have visited it seems top class show/working/OB/agility  people use them to advertise their puppies also, and of course their leads to their websites are there, with available stud dogs offered. Many AB breeders also advertise, one such current ad suprised me. From a show home, both parents SH CH, advert starts in capitals 'REDUCED FOR QUICK SALE..... We are a KENNEL CLUB ACCREDITED BREEDER'.........
>
> Now, I know I'm all for reducing prices to find a puppy a home, but this really is not the way I meant and shreeks of BYB and get rid quick even though they have made up their own bitch and the sire is a sh ch. Are the lines between a 'good' breeder and the BYB begining to blur somewhat?

I totally agree with you calmstorm, I often wonder where the lines begin and end and then realise that when breeders are talking about themselves they are good breeders but when they are talking about others undertaking the same practices they describe them as BYB.

This thread is coming across as borderline bullying towards one member as many of you slate her site and proposed breeding plans.  I can't remember if you did calmstorm but you happen to have the last post which is why it is included here.  For a site where so many people pride themselves on being well mannered, perhaps you should be addressing concerns about a member of the forum's website to her by PM rather than slating her on the forum.  People learn best by use of positive training methods, not by having their life picked apart on a forum.

> This thread is coming across as borderline bullying towards one member as many of you slate her site and proposed breeding plans

Noone has stated which site/who/if it is a member So how can it be bullying a member?????
Lea :) :)

>> This thread is coming across as borderline bullying towards one member as many of you slate her site and proposed breeding plans
> Noone has stated which site/who/if it is a member So how can it be bullying a member?????

It is blatantly obvious.  the thread first mentioned a website where a 9 month old pup was going to be used at stud and lo and behold a member of this forum was yesterday talking about this and also then how she changed her website due to things people had said. 

the thread then goes onto mention disliking use of the term 'studding' and would you believe it, this is a term that the CD member who was talking about her young dog uses. 

Now I wouldn't consider myself to be a genius and have amazing powers of deduction but it is screamingly obvious.  I can't remember the TOS of the board off hand but am sure there is likely to be something about not being personal towards members. 

Just because the member has not been named lea doesn't mean it isn't bullying - covert bullying is just as damaging as overt.

I do not think this is helping matters either, making it  obvious to those who had been unaware that this person is a member here as nowhere earlier in the thread  had that been mentioned. However I actually think the person concerned has handled this extremely well and can only have gone up in others estimations in there apparent eagerness to infact listern and learn.

Others unaware,,,I don't think so, its just that no one else maybe had the brass balls to say! So good on ya CC for stating the bullying, obvious but under cover.

Advice given is such a wonderful thing, perhaps instead of 'nameless' slating it would have been better if the 'breeding experts' had contacted her direct rather than the many jibes. It read like a school playground.

As you are not fully aware of people having done just that maybe its better if you left it :(

I'll leave it yes, but were all those posts needed? No. It ws allowed to run when it was obvious what was going on and thats unfair. The advice should have been given by PM, not a nameless slating. :(

Oh...I have read the other posts and know now advice has been offered but not after another slating. It was unfair, but hopefully she has learnt something from it and yes she handled it wonderfully. Shame it was not given so generously in the begining.

Oh my, I have just been watching the show on youtube and it is awful.  I knew puppy farms were bad but not that bad!!
Are they the same in the UK or do we have the laws that state solid floor, minimum space etc?  Like what they wanted to change in the law of one state

Emma

Every member of his board has a report button that they can press when they feel a thread is uncalled for.

Advice has been offered on a different post as you say but unless you have read the persons PM's then you are still unaware of all the advice given or by whom or for that matter when. However as stated above any post that is felt to be unwarrented can be reported.

shame to have an undercurrant :(

Anyway, the delights of my bed are calling ;)

Night Night :)

arh but a positive one
too soon for bed yet ;)
but good night :)

Closing this as it's gone off topic & we have another puppy farming thread running now