Hello everyone,thought i,d ask advice on this site before making up my mind about the stud dogs suitability for my bitch.I will hopefully be breeding from her early next year following a successful hip score result(eyes will be done in jan) and i will be keeping a pup.I do show ,, but only lightly..I had a job finding a stud with a lower hip score than her but picked a good looking lad(he did win B O B but thats beside the point) at the last show i attended and it turned out that his hips were very low elbows 0 and eyes clear so no probs there,he also conteracts some of my bitches faults(gay tail and longish back) ,so was really pleased with my choice.However following on from the great inbreeding debate on bbc 1 ,i decided to check out his pedigree online and have discovered that if they do mate the puppies will have the name SH CH RITZILIN COCKNEY ROBIN appearing in the gr gr grandsire coloum on both sides.While i,m pretty sure that would be classed as line breeding i,m just wondering if any one would consider it inbreeding,i would hate to do anything wrong as i really want to breed healthy pups and feel happy in selling any to anyone else,so would really appreciate your thoughts on this.Look forward to reading your replies.

I really wouldnt be concerned about this. Its not classed as inbreeding, that would be parents/offspring, sibling/sibling etc. A G.G.Grandsire wouldnt feature greatly in the genetic make up.

OK, not sure how to word this, so please take it in a constructive manner! It's not meant to be an attack or offensive. You're obviously trying to do things right, as you're going down the health testing line, so you're on your way to sensible breeding.

From your wording (which is all we have to go on so far), it would appear that the dog you have chosen has been selected at a show for appearance, and that looking at his pedigree has been a bit of an afterthought. If this is the case, then to be honest ... there's a lot more to it than that. It's not as simple as looking at a dog and thinking you like him and he has decent health results. You need to be doing further research into what is behind both him and your bitch, whether the lines are likely to complement each other, what health tests have been done further back in the pedigree, how his ancestors looked, health results for any progeny ...

To be honest, I'd be worried about a pedigree that would only have one name duplicated! No, I wouldn't advocate breeding too closely, but you do need a degree of similarity to reduce the hotch-potch that is likely to come from a completely unrelated mating. When you are carefully checking on the health aspects, then you want to increase the possibility of producing healthy puppies.

Sorry, do realise that it's a very subjective thing ... "how close is too close?" - just trying to offer a bit of advice that you may be going a bit too far in the opposite direction. Hopefully you have someone who knows your breed to advise you.

M.

If you look in many Goldies pedigrees you will find this name repeated!! :-D
Have you joined Standfast data? You can do trial matings, look up dogs and find out how many pups they have sired etc.

> he also conteracts some of my bitches faults(gay tail and longish back) ,

It would be advisable to research this mating in more depth than this. The stud dog in question may have a mother and all siblings with shocking faults and  been kept as the only one good enough to show.
I know a champion boxer who's mother has a long narrow muzzle and one can see this trait regularily in his puppies. It's all in there ....just because you cant' see it in the stud dog doesn't mean you won't get even longer backs and gayer tails... It pays to put a picture to the names on your bitch's pedigree then start on potential husbands:-  in that way, you might just identify where your bitch's faults came from and avoid duplication.

Best of luck.

If the COI in your intended mating is 6,25 or higher - I myself would think twice. I'd also try to check the health status (hips & elpows, eyes) of the sire's progeny.

Hi,Lily Mc,Yes both have excellent hip scores ect a long way back,and as they're both young many of the ancestors are still being shown.When i was seaching for a poss sire i looked for one that would undo her "faults" as such but sound health was my priority and some of the well known Champs were not so good on that score.The woman who owns him didn,t have the pedigree on her hence the looking it up on the internet,didnt want to find out anything bad at the last minite.Both have well known affix's on their pedigree but Cockney Robin's will crop up twice,but as the next person has pointed out he has been very influential and turned up a lot on other goldies pedigree.I had a quick word with the judge that day ,to cut a long story short,she said he would be a good match or go to his father Ch zanthos blackthorn but he's getting on a bit (10)so i think a younger one would be better.As i said i only show locally so this isnt a priority,but health is.I welcome your points and will do more research or i may ring my bitch's sire owner up,being a judge i,m pretty sure she would know who,s who,would go back to her but all her boys are on mine,s pedigree right back to gr gr gr all but one still going strong.Many thanks for your help and advice.  jen.

Just a thought.
You might be better off using an older dog as then you can see what he leaves(health/looks etc).
Maybe the owners of the father of the stud you are thinking of using could test his sperm to see if he still got it...
Would using his father mean not having the same name in the pedigree repeated or is it the fathers side that has this dog in?

Like others said -take ANY Golden's pedigree and you will find the same names repeated. I went back ten generations with one of mine and some names crop up perhaps 20 times. Twice in later generations is really nothing. I also agree that Standfast data is a goldmine for Golden pedigrees. :)

Hi Noora,yes its on the sires side his gt grandparent,so i suppose he must be throwing good quality as they're all champs. ,Oliver(pet name) is doing well too,fantastic movement,glides over the ground,She kept his brother too who is doing just aswell theyre usually both in the BOB lineup.
Will look at Standfast data as it seems just what i,m looking for.
  Many thanks to all.

Sorry dont want to upset anyone here but just because a dog does well in the show ring  doesnt mean good quality in every sense of the word ....I cannot speak of your breed i have bull terriers and danes but what about health issues and temperament .How many champions have unknowingly passed on cogenital and hereditary conditions .I myself went to a championship show and saw a well known breeder who that day had won the bitch CC when we went up give our best wishes she informed me not to stroke her as she could be a bit nasty to ...people she doesnt know.....Ok may be a one off but in my opinion THAT dog should not be shown And i certainly would not breed from her
P.S. She has recently had a litter !!!!!!!!!!

Hi jim jams ,yes you're right i would rather go for good health anyday,boy in question had been picked by me Before he went on to win everything that day,thats a bonus,we stood next to them all day and he was always  the perfect gent,verylaid back and kind expression,the woman that owned him(and his brother and mom,grandmother) was nice too.Judging by the mixed comments from people here i think i,ll go with my gut feeling and stick with him,his hip score, elbows and eyes are excellent as are with my bitch,as i said before i had a job to match her hip score
with a stud and some were ,in my opinion,far too high,champs included!I,ve had bad health in dogs before and its heartbreaking to watch them suffer thats why i waited 18months for my bitch as i,d met and knew her mother well,her breeder also had the grand mother and great grandmother all problem free so although i could have rushed out and bought a puppy that was available sooner i was happy to wait,my patience has paid off i have a lovely dog thats liked everywhere we go and i dont want to spoil that as i will be keeping a pup from her litter.Many thanks for all your coments they have all been taken aboard.

That is how to do it ,you know the history of your dogs and therefore your future lines ....All the best in the future and good luck ...

> If the COI in your intended mating is 6,25 or higher - I myself would think twice. I'd also try to check the health status (hips & elpows, eyes) of the sire's progeny.

Eek, I'd call that outbreeding if I had a COI as low as that!  The latest Show Champion I bred has 12.4% as her inbreeding of which just under half of that is onto one very significant import in the breed.

I have just looked up two of our dogs COI, one came up as 7.10% at 10 gen, and 10.76% at 12 gen.
The other came up as 11.04% at 10 gen and 15.47% at 12 gen.
Can anyone please explain what this means as I find it very confusing! :-D

If you are unsure about the dog you are looking at, see what he has produced before. If this is your first litter you have to start somewhere and IMHO that would be the first place to look. There is a  more to it than that, and i could go on and on about what you should be looking at, but if you are not that clued up (don't take that the wrong way) thats the way i would look at first.

I don't understand COI either, can someone explain what is acceptable?

Here is an explanation: http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/coefficient.htm good luck.

ChristineW,

I do not know how to do the borrowing of your text but I can see the person who said about COI less than 6.25 is from Finland (as am I) and we usually talk about 5 generation COI not 10 generation as you seem to do here in UK...
Obviously I do not know if this is what threelabs means but it could be that as the Kennel club in Finland recommends less than 6.25 in last 5 generations...
If I remember right, could have made that one up :)...

Hi Noora,

I am only speaking 5 generation not 10.

Thanks Barbara, that was clear as mud!! :-D

Must admit I prefer to think in terms of percentages of blood.

For example the closest matings I have done have been half uncle to niece and half sibling.

The dogs I made these line breedings to were themselves outcrosses (sired by Imports).

So the half sibling matings would make the mutual grandparent (25%) have as much influence as a parent being 50% of the pedigree. 

The half uncle niece mating gives the individual being line bred to being both a grandparent (25%) and great grandparent (12.5%), 37.5% influence.

I have usually only done such matings when the previous generation were the result of outcrossing on imports.

Thanks for the link Barbara, I think I need more braincells to take that onboard.
Whats an acceptable % for breeding?

This linked article http://www.usjersey.com/Reference/inbreeding.pdf says what I think most of us beleive "but there is little scientific
evidence with regard to the choice of an
acceptable level of inbreeding."

This article cites 6.25% as being commonly considered the upper desireable limit http://siriusdog.com/article.php?id=393&page=2