I think it might be nice if, at least until over breeding was under control again, it would be nice of people wanting a dog, took one from a rescue centre, rather than buy a puppy from a breeder.

That is not a slap at breeders, as there are many reputable one's, however, there is no question that there is widespread overbreeding and irresponsible ownership, here in the UK.

To counter that, I would support a campaign for anyone thinking of getting a new dog, to offer a forever home to a rescue, rather than encourage more breeding.

Jhmo...

Steve

It might be a nice idea...

Practically it wouldnt work. Next dog round in my house can only be a pup and can only be a pup of one of two specific breeds, due to the number of dogs i have, and their existant needs.

Since neither breed will show up in rescue as a pup in the time frame that suits me (which is several years), how does me then not having another dog at all, assist dogs in rescues?

It doesnt.

Efforts to educate people as to HOW to find a well bred pup OR a responsible, sensible rescue, WHY to do this and why NOT to go to a puppy farmer or pet shop or free ad...

These would long term solve the problem much better.

It all boils down to supply and demand.

There is little demand for second hand dogs that are rightly or wrongly, deemed 'problem dogs' by the majority, for pups that are not going to grow up to a predictable standard appearance or behavioural traits.

There is high demand for cute puppies, available right now, delivered to your door or pick up and pay by credit card after browsing the available breeds, little thought, little effort, no questions asked beyond 'have you the money'.

So overbreeding is caused by this latter demand.

Change the demands of the puppy buying masses, and you could theoretically, solve the problem.

I don't think overbreeding will be under control EVER. Unless some laws were put in place and policed, and lets face it dogs are kept in appalling conditions all over the country and its near impossible getting the RSPCA to come out and check.

But I agree people should look at rehoming a rescue instead of going to a breeder for a puppy.

In general this board is full of breeders and show-ers, they'll never rescue a dog because they need it to be KC registered and bred to a certain shape. Sadly some breeds are bred to be freakishly distorted welfare is never going to be a concern for those owners as long as they can win and make money. Fortunately there are other show/breed people who choose dog shaped breeds and try to improve health by testing.

For people who want a pet or "activities" dog (agility, obedience) a rescue is almost perfect. A lot of activities people are sucked in to thinking its about the breeding and not about their skill (or lack of) as trainers.

The only problem for me is that rescues aren't health tested, I can guess what breeds are in my dogs and the health problems they might have and I'll watch out for them. I know that the parents are almost 100% guaranteed not to be hip scored or other breed appropriate tests.

Despite this I'll continue getting rescues and insuring them just in case.

I would consider buying a puppy from a brilliant breeder if they would allow me to pay the purchase price to rescue instead of them. It'll never happen! :-)

I also think it sounds like a nice idea but surely it would mean that we would end up with lots of sub-standard dogs and many hereditary diseases would be bred in again.

Theoretically, a good breeder should take back any dogs needing rehomed so they would be rehomed privately rather than 'rescued' so would never appear in kennels.  Therefore surely the majority of dogs in kennels would not be able to better the breed and eventually there would end up being more widespread breeding in order to have dogs that meet the breed standard. (I think...). 

for as long as there is money to be made in the selling of animals there will always be unscrupulous breeding.  Only when a thing has no value will the profiteers stop trying to squeeze profit out of the item.

In the Rescue that I am involved with we have had two dogs in 40 + years that come from non BYB, Pet & Puppy farmer breeders, in both cases the breeders were contacted & immediately offered to take the dogs back plus a donation to our rescue-however one came to my Dad & the other stayed as a house dog with our rescue lady & her husband. It's quite easy in GSDs to tell how a dog is bred from it's appearance & of course over the last 20 odd years all good breeders have been having their puppies tattooed.

Would I go to our rescue for my next GSD ?  No why ? because I dio not want a purely pet dog with possible health & behaviour problems(our rescue didn't have these as she came from a responsible breeder), the odds of a suitable dog coming into rescue is very unlikely.

Would I go for a rescue BC for my next dog ? No for the same reasons

Would I go for a rescue Cavalier ? No because the dogs that go into rescue tend to be ex puppy farm breeding dogs & bitches or dogs with severe health problems. There are not many Cavaliers that go into rescue in any case as they tend to be privately rehomed(for example an elderly lady was taken very ill & when she knew she would not be able to go home she instructed her family to find a good home for her little dog, which they did & if anything she is leading a better quality of life with her new owner who is in better health.  I did tell her family after her death that the local show people had missed her owner & that we were concerned about her dog, this is one case were I would have taken a rescue dog in had she needed it as I knew her background.

I have always taken back any dog that the owners have come to me when he/she was no longer wanted & either kept them or rehomed them privately.

My breeding dogs have always been health tested with all the tests that were available at the time.  I consider that breeding three litters in 50 years of dog ownership is not overbreeding & if I breed again(Border Collies)I already have at least 5 suitable homes waiting for them

> For people who want a pet or "activities" dog (agility, obedience) a rescue is almost perfect. A lot of activities people are sucked in to thinking its about the breeding and not about their skill (or lack of) as trainers.

How much obedience,working trials have you done ? Rescue can be suitable, but only if the handler is extremely dedicated & the dog doesn't have any major hangups however & it is a big however most rescues that could be suitable are not because of major health & behaviour problems. I've done Obedeince with rescues & had good fun with them, but they had their problems(cruelty cases)that stop them being able to perform to the standard required.

So Obedience, Working Trials & Schutzhund are down to the ability of the handler & nothing to do with the breeding behind the dog-oh dear oh dear you are being very niave. No matter how talented a handler/trainer there are dogs who do not have enough drive & ability to be able to perform well in these activites. My two youngest BC's come from very strong working lines & it does matter-a handler at our club has a lovely show bred BC who has won out of Pre Beginners, but he lacks the commitment & drive to progress to the top of the sport He is very very laid back & needs masses of"winding up"to succeed in the ring. He is two & has just gone into Beginners & Novice. On the other hand a cousin to my youngest two BCs has just won 6/7(I've lost count)Novices & he is only 16 months old. The different being is the breeding he is out of a bitch that goes back to the same dogs as mine & an ISDS bloodline. He has so much work drive & keeness that the other dog lacks because of the breeding.

As for Agility there are lots of rescues doing agility because the accuracy & drive requirements are much less-most rounds of agility last less than a minute In Obedience heelwork(the most difficult exercise to achieve near perfection)lasts much longer than than, especially in the higher classes were commands are minimal . The same applies to Fly Ball as agility BTW

That is not a slap at breeders, as there are many reputable one's, however, there is no question that there is widespread overbreeding and irresponsible ownership, here in the UK.

To counter that, I would support a campaign for anyone thinking of getting a new dog, to offer a forever home to a rescue, rather than encourage more breeding.
Actually I think the oppisite. Instead ideally it is best to undermine the bad breeders and encourage good breeres by making sure the pup comes from a good  reputable breeder.

Dogs from good breereds should come with contracts stating on no account should you rehome yur dog with anyone without their consent, and that they will take the dog bavk if at any time you no longer can have them .  Therefore there woud actually be no dogs in shelters.

So the unwanted dogs issue is actually not connected in any way to responsible breeders.

If anything it could be arged that by giving homes to unwanted dogs you actually feed this problem - but in reality is is not an issue that can be solved because it is related more to a deep rooted defect within society rather then being dog related. eg the same type of people who breed and neglect dogs do the same with their kids or who do this and that to make money at any cost with no moral accountability. Solve that and the rescues would be empty!

So  it'd be good to somehow connect the concerned public with the knowledge to locate and identify a good breeders because most people just don't know it is an issue.

As for Agility there are lots of rescues doing agility because the accuracy & drive requirements are much less-most rounds of agility last less than a minute
but to get that 30 seconds of perfection and control at such fast speeds requires a hell of a lot of mental stamina/concentration/training.  If you want to win up in agility you need that one in a million type of dog! I don't think any of the activities require a lesser able dog  if you want to do well . Pups for agility are as specially selected, given activity specific socialiastion and trained in the same dedicated way as they do for obedience really. They just do a different type of work.

> but to get that 30 seconds of perfection and control at such fast speeds requires a hell of a lot of mental stamina/concentration/training.  If you want to win up in agility you need that one in a million type of dog! I don't think any of the activities require a lesser able dog  if you want to do well . Pups for agility are as specially selected, given activity specific socialiastion and trained in the same dedicated way as they do for obedience really. They just do a different type of work.

Why do so many good handlers have rescued dogs then ??????? If you look at the agility results & on agility sites there are lots of rescues doing well in Agility far more than in Obedience, Working Trials & Schutzhund

>I think it might be nice if, at least until over breeding was under control again, it would be nice of people wanting a dog, took one from a rescue centre, rather than buy a puppy from a breeder.

While this is a laudable idea, in practise what you are suggesting is that responsible people who would never buy or support over-bred dogs, BYB and puppy farmers - actually indirectly support them through getting a dog from rescue :(  if there were no general rescue places then maybe the over-bred dogs would be taken back to the puppy farms and BYBs and they'd have to rethink their attitude ;)

As has already been mentioned, well-bred dogs from responsible breeders are less likely to be in a general rescue.  In addition, many breeds, my own included, have their own welfare and rescue set-up, which liaise with general rescues, dog wardens and owners to ensure that no dog of that breed need ever end up in a general rescue.   In our breed the number of people wanting a rescue outnumbers the number of dogs rescued.  Good breeders in our breed will also take back any unwanted dog that they have bred.

I have had a rescue dog, he was a crossbreed (the only rescue I would have for above reason) and was wonderful - a one off! but he was the most expensive dog I ever owned, the vets was our second home :( 

I see no point in supporting the puppy farmers by taking on one of their "money pit" pups, with those it's more a case of when they start getting ill rather than if

> While this is a laudable idea, in practise what you are suggesting is that responsible people who would never buy or support over-bred dogs, BYB and puppy farmers - actually indirectly support them through getting a dog from rescue :-(

I agree. :-(

I was recently looking at a few rescue websites. One in particular has a constant stream of ex-breeding bitches for rehoming. The BYB's obviously just breed these poor dogs to death and then just pass them on to the rescue when they've finished with them. I can't help feeling that the rescue is almost helping the BYB to continue their trade. I know that unscrupulous breeders may well destroy a dog they no longer need, so in that respect the rescue is saving a dog in need, but in a way they are also supporting the trade.

I wouldn't rule out a rescue but I don't think it's always that straightforward.

There are many good reasons that a person wanting dog may not find a second hand one suitable. 

I would not have considered a rescue when I had my first and second dog because I had very young children, and needed a clean page.

Also often rescue dogs require experienced owners because they have issues and baggage.

Also I have always wanted to have a pedigree dog that I could show, so for me the only way to do that was to buy a promising pup or breed my own.

Others require a dog for other disciplines, and the best results are usually achieved if training starts very early.

I too am totally against commercial breeding purely for the pet market.

Those most of us call 'Breeder' as opposed to people that produce pups breed for maintaining the breed, and with showing or working as the prime aim of breeding the litter, and of course the resulting pups are all destined to also be companions, all may not go on to fulfil the original purpose for breeding the litter, but some will.

I don't support overbreeding because I ONLY acquire my dogs from responsible breeders. 

I'm curious Steve, do you believe there shouldn't be any dog breeds? As soon as you take responsible breeders who maintain the health, temperament and type of their stock out of the equation the individual breeds as we know them would die out.

I'm not a breeder, I'm a buyer. For me the responsibility lies on my head and my head only. When I decide to have a dog I make the decision to care for that dog for its entire life. No exceptions. That means I do what is necessary to keep the dog healthy and well under my roof. Under extreme circumstances it might mean I'd have to have the courage and compassion to put a dog to sleep or the responsibility of finding a good home for the dog myself. Now the last option isn't a problem for me as I bought my dog's from a responsible breeder. If I died or became physically impaired and couldn't care for my dogs she'd take them back. I also have a couple friends that would quite happily take them.

Part of my responsibility is to only buy my dogs from good breeders not exploiting their dogs for financial gain and not breeding on a whim. Yes, I could walk out of a puppy farm or away from a litter kept in appalling conditions because the only way to stop the overbreeding you are concerned about is to remove the financial incentive. The vast majority of dogs in rescue were produced by back yard breeders that decided they could use some extra cash, thought the kids would enjoy it or their bitch deserved to be a mother - or from puppy farmers.

Human mass behavior is driven by greed and desire. People wanting money, people wanting things now. I'd be perfectly happy to have a rescue dog. But it wouldn't stop overbreeding. It also wouldn't stop people's lack of commitment to care for the dogs they do take whether that's from rescue or as a puppy.

I have two rescue dogs at present and have always owned rescues. One of my rescues is a Golden Retriever and came to us at 10 weeks old from a national rescue, the other is a crossbreed terrier whom we had at 5-6 months old.

Because my GR is a pedigree dog, and I have always previously had crossbreeds, I decided to do some research on the breed and came across this site. I was, and am, a pet owner with no intention of showing but do enjoy fun agility with my GR. Before I found this site I had no idea that there is a world of difference between dogs from responsible breeders and dogs from other sources and naively believed, along with the majority of Joe Public, that a pedigree dog was for those who wish to show and if you wanted "just" a pet dog then you could buy one from wherever. I would never have bought a dog from a pet warehouse or from anyone who kept their dogs in unfavourable conditions, but I would have bought from a BYB because I knew no better. This site frightened the life out of me when I first joined - I was really worried that my dog could have a dodgey temperament and endless health problems. His papers were not taken by the rescue but they did see them, but I have no idea what his background is, just that we were lucky enough to get a wonderful dog with a great disposition and, touch wood, whom appears to be healthy so far.

Our terrier cross is from a completely unknown source, had no socialisation at all until we got him, barks for England, had no training at all and has been, and still is, exceedingly hard work :) I have decided that my next dog will be from a responsible breeder, with a known background, and all the back up that may be needed. I would consider a pup that has been run on by a responsible breeder but would not take on a rescue from an unknown background again. I think too many rescues let dogs with baggage go to first time owners - if I had not had dogs previously I would have seriously considered returning our terrier. The next time I have a dog I want one as a puppy so I can train in good behaviour and not battle to train out undesirable behaviours. I want one whose parents have been health tested, have great temperaments and do not want to take a massive gamble on what I am getting.

I feel desperately sorry for all those poor dogs who end up in rescue but the problem of the sheer number of  rescue dogs will not change until the breeder's are made to accept full responsibility for all the dogs they breed and not just pass on the problem to the rescues. The general public need to be educated as to why they should buy their dogs from acceptable sources and why BYB's and puppy farms should be avoided at all costs.

I have had four rescues over the years as well as pups from breeders.
I have gained so much pleasure, and yes, pride in seeing a very sad, bad, naughty or unhappy dog turn into a wonderful pet because  of mine and my families hard work. Sorry, as I don't want to sound conceited, but it does take a lot of hard work and a lot of skill and patience. Not all rescue dogs are cute and cuddly longing for a new home.Rescue dogs are often there because they have problems and badly handled these could turn into a disaster. As the previous poster also said there is the unknown element. Why did my dog end up at the rescue?
A rescue can be a gamble .Thankfully only one of mine had an unhappy ending. That was because he had inherited illnesses which I did want him to have to cope with nor put myself through the heartache so decided to PTS.
The others have been wonderful.
In an ideal world all dogs would be born and placed in a life time  happy home. Unfortunatley this does not even happen to children

Can I just say, what a lot of good replies, I can't find anything to add. :)

> How much obedience,working trials have you done ? .....    oh dear oh dear you are being very niave.

Thanks very much for the insults :-)

I shalln't be giving up yet no matter how much your type look down their noses at me for daring to have a rescue, and not even a rescue BC. As nice as it is to do well its so much more satisfying beating people who've made comments like that.

More rescues would do well in obedience if it wasn't for this pattern>

Owner of rescue dog goes to training classes/watches Crufts/sees a show and thinks I'll try that.
Goes to a show and enjoys it.
Sharp learning curve for the owner and dog, they might do very well or they might not.
Owner sees most dogs are BCs and gets told by obedience people that "you'll never get anywhere if you don't get a collie" (rescue BC owners told never get anywhere unless you have a dog from such and such a line).
Owner's next dog is a BC and training begins from puppyhood, they do better than the first dog.

Owner is told this is because the dog is better and doesn't think it might be because they've learned how to train their dog better and been on all those training courses.

I steward at a lot of shows too and in the lower classes at least one person expresses disappointed that their specially bred, correct lines, made for obedience, dog isn't taking them through the classes.

Its a difficult one. As a younger person my family always had pedigree dogs, i had one rescue dog and one rescue puppy, both lived out their lives with me and my sons.
When the last one was PTS we decided with teenagers and work not to have another dog until we could be at home and last year we brought two. A Cocker for me (I researched the breed and brought via KC site and breeder on there) My OH wanted a BC and I researched him and he is ISDS from Worcester. I did not consider another rescue as i really wanted well breed dogs with a full history.
If in the future, when a little older we retire fully I will be getting a rescue BC and possibly another Cocker pup. I would like to try showing cockers, and we own a large woodland and my OH's "retirement" is to manage it and do agility with a BC. Jake was "damaged" possibly unwittingly by us and has had OCD, he appears to have fully recovered but as he is so much loved neither he nor I could risk that shoulder again. He is walked at least 7 miles a day and is v. active but not enough to agility train him.
We would love to have a dog we could agility train and a young rescue BC would be great.
But thats our choice!
I am not sure how ever laudable your sentiments tat people would take rescue dogs when their heritage is not known.
Breeders would not and people like me also like to know that the love we invest in dogs is not going to be shortened by them dying off with hereditary problems. Its costly to own dogs now a days with insurance costs, vets costs and our litigation society.
Another writer comments on problem dogs, they take time and experiance to repair, i hope to have that time soon, but not all of us have that time.
But I note your comments and agree with your views as my BC would not do well at Crufts as he's huge, got a long nose and isnt KC standard at all but he can trace his heritage back 100 years!! which is a lot more than some people I know. He's not bad with sheep either!!

Are rescues full due to over-breeding in general, or due to a mixture of poor-breeding and bad owners (impulse buys, getting a dog without realising the effort & work involved, not realising that a puppy needs to be trained and will not just naturally 'know' how to behave etc....)??

If over-breeding in general was the problem, wouldn't rescues be full of litters of puppies rather than dogs that have been put there??

If all owners only bought puppies from decent, reputable breeders I think that would be half the battle, also if people put the effort into researching thier chosen dog BEFORE deciding weather they should have one it would make a HUGE difference.
I have  a rescue dog & a pure-breed. I would hate to think that in the future there wouldn't be any pure-bred dogs.

I have nothing against rescue dogs, they can make fantastic pets and I wouldn't change my rescue dog for all the tea in china (despite him taking an awfull lot of work to overcome his 'bad' behaviors).

With my pure-bred dog, I picked the breed due to the temperment/behavior of the adults, as I have found a good breeder (and as long as I ensure dog is socialised, trained etc..) I know what the approximate temperment of him as an adult will be. I know his exercise requirements before I even got him. I feel as though I am more than able to train this pup into a good adult, but as I am new to the breed I wouldn't attempt to take on an adult rescue of this breed. When I am confident about my experience of the breed, I hope to take on a rescue, but I am not ready for that yet.

Many breeds/types of dog require a certain approach, I would not feel comfortable taking on some breeds/types without first having experience of that breed from puppyhood.

I see some problems with rescue dogs.  Not the dogs themselves, but their situations.  Let me explain:
- they are coming from some sort of bad background.  They could have been abused, neglected, or abandoned like trash.  Each senerio comes with a different problem.
- they are not health tested
- they are locked in runs all day, with maybe a 10 minute walk a week.  All that energy??  Surely the pent up energy would be something that behaviour problems would arrise from.
- sometimes you have no idea whats in them.  I remember looking at a dog (not a rescue, but a cross) and thinking that it was a mix between these two different breeds.  Come to find out I was completely wrong, and it wasnt a mix of the breeds I had thought.  Meaning, even shelter workers could say it was this crosses with this, but who knows?  You have no idea what you are going to get.
- and at least here, if you take a dog from the shelter it costs $200, which ok, dont mind that, but if it doesnt work out, or the animal gets sick, you are out the 200 if you have to return the dog.  Example: it bites someone, and you dont want to live with the dog, then you take it back, fine, they take it, your money, and try to rehome the dog. 

Pluses with rescues:
- pets
- already spayed/neutered
- up to date on shots

I personally, at this point, wouldnt get a rescue dog. 

I regularly walk dogs at an RSPCA centre, and there is a beautiful rottie bitch Jetta, i was seriously considering having her and i would if i didnt have any other dogs. The reasons i couldnt have her are, that she doesnt get on with bitches so with my Ruby and her being most important i couldnt have the stress of them having a fight. Constantly keeping an eye on them would send me mad. Also with not knowing her past, could i trust her with younger members of the family and any puppies i have? She is about 3 years old and has hardly any training and no reliable recall whatsoever. I would not be frightened of some hard work as i can handle it, but the safety of my other dogs is paramount. Another thing is though, would the RSPCA allow me to have a rottie although she is on the small side, if i didnt have experience of large breeds. I will not totally put the idea of a rescue out of my head but my own dogs that are here at the moment are most important to me.

Louise

If I am completely honest I didn't for once second consider getting a rescue dog and I would not consider a rescue for some tiime
Reason being I have a young son and no matter what the people are the rehoming centre tell me I just wouldn't feel comfortable with have an older dog

Selfish maybe
I wanted a pup I could bring up myself

> I shalln't be giving up yet no matter how much your type look down their noses at me for daring to have a rescue, and not even a rescue BC. As nice as it is to do well its so much more satisfying beating people who've made comments like that.

What is my type by the way ? someone who gives up their time to judge(often on less than a days notice) & occasionally steward Obedience classes & run an Open Obedience show with YKC classes & specially chosen judges for the YKC & Pre B classes ? Who helps Pre B's train for competition All for free ????? What an awful type of person to be I should be ashamed of myself !

I do not look down my nose @ people with rescue dogs & I certainly don't always put up Border Collies/WSD bred for obedience when I judge(don't do a lot of stewarding as I do a lot of judging in Obedience)& I never ever tell people you need a collie/WSD to win. Just a few of my judging appointments have seen a Keeshond winning my A, a(shock horror)cross breed winning my B(he's now a ticket dog), (OMG another ) X breed winning my B(he's now C only), a Rescue Cross Breed(oh goodness that makes 3 X breeds winning)winning my Pre B, yet another X breed winning  my B(she is now C only but has now retired), a GSD winning my Novice, a miniature LC dachshund(yes that's right a dachshund) winning my Novice. Yes some of my classes have been won by WSD/BCs because they predominant the classes above Novice & I do judge a lot of classes above Novice. In my Pre B's these year I have had lots of X breeds & unusual breeds for obedience(like Tibetan Terriers) & most of the Xs are rescues & a good few have been placed.

I have judged a lot of lower classes in my time & never heard anyone say that their dog was "bred "to do obedience & was failing them by not winning, it is quite hard to win out of Pre B's because  many judges want the dogs all to perform as BC/WSD do in heelwork-I don't I look for the KC required straight reasonably close heelwork position & as a result a lot of handlers who never get placed under most judges win or get placed under me.

The reason that BC/WSD bred to work do so well in obedience is that the seeds of work are there at the outset(from birth) & are bred into the dog & a good handler brings out the best in them. My first two BCs that I did well with in Obedience were not from Obedience lines but good ISDS lines, my first BC took me from Beginners(no Pre B's back then)to ticket in  2 1/2 years(& for 9 months of this she had no retrieve after been savaged by a GSD in training)she was three years old when she qualified for ticket & I was 24 ! She went on to do WT & gained her CDEx & UDEx at the first attempt at Ch Trials  My first Male BC was bred to work sheep & I did this + trailling for the first 4 months I had him & didn't start serious Obedience until he was 14 months old. I did Obedience & Sheepdog trials at the same time & he qualified for the English National in his first year of trialling as well as winning out of Novice & A & winning at breed Ch Shows.

I would not consider a rescue for me to do obedience with, but I have owned rescues in the past & would own one again as a pure pet(I know one Obedience couple who have 17 dogs between them nearly all rescues, but only three do obedience a GSD(Ticket dog), a BC(B & C) & a X breed(C only) & the Xbreed & BC have won under me-they think no more of their competitive dogs than they do their rescues so not all good handlers have to have specially bred dogs as pets)but not to work with.

My next GSD will come from Germany because I want to work him & do Schutzhund-doing Schutzhund with a rescue GSD that I know nothing or little of the background of would be not only foolish, but downright irresponsible.

One of my close firends has Irish Setters & has won out of Beginners with her older boy, when she was looking for another dog-did I try to change her breed-certainly not & her young boy is showing great promise & her older boy-well I just love him to bits & would have him in a heartbeat.

> they'll never rescue a dog because they need it to be KC registered and bred to a certain shape

funny, i've had 2 rescues along with my bred dogs...technically 3 now actually

> bred to be freakishly distorted

i hope your not suggesting anyone on the forum does this

> I would consider buying a puppy from a brilliant breeder if they would allow me to pay the purchase price to rescue instead of them. It'll never happen

well no, it costs a fortune to properly breed a litter.

to the op, people don;t always go for a rescue as they intend to go for specific things in a dog- whether its a certain look, a temprement, or that they intend to show. they also suit peoples better- a pup is far easier to introduce to a dog household than an adult, a pup can be trained the way you want where as some (certainly not all) rescues sometimes can't. there are many reasons. that being said i always say to people that unless your after something specific get a rescue

> I would consider buying a puppy from a brilliant breeder if they would allow me to pay the purchase price to rescue instead of them. It'll never happen! :-)

Who do you think fund breed rescue?

> I shalln't be giving up yet no matter how much your type look down their noses at me for daring to have a rescue, and not even a rescue BC. As nice as it is to do well its so much more satisfying beating people who've made comments like that.

I don't look down my nose at anyone, least of all someone with rescue dogs. Looking down on someone for buying a puppy from a good breeder is what, noble snobbery so it's OK.

This is not just aimed at you Karen but the OP as well. This is the message I seem to be getting:
- Only get dogs from rescue so no one should ever buy a puppy from anyone at any time
- Good breeders should stop having litters all together - (or should they have a litter to keep one puppy for themselves and have the rest put to sleep, they can't sell them so what other option is there)
- All dogs from rescue are neutered and since breeders shouldn't have any more litters I guess their dogs should also be neutered
can you see where I'm going here...

With no new dogs born the rescue centres would empty eventually but have you noticed how we eventually just don't have dogs anymore? I suppose there might be a few hundred left in the care of breeders that chose to have a litter and keep one or two pups. No I hear you say, you love dogs, you don't want them to go extinct. OK, so where do new puppies come from? The odd household that was too irresponsible to keep entire dogs apart, or too greedy. Puppy farms?

Sorry but I just can't see the logic in asking the small group of people that do it right and whose dogs aren't in the rescue centres to stop what they're doing to support bad breeding practices or to contribute to the end of their beloved dogs. The world would be a far worse place without golden retrievers to share it with. ;-) :)

> I would consider buying a puppy from a brilliant breeder if they would allow me to pay the purchase price to rescue instead of them. It'll never happen!

Can I buy your car, as long as i give the purchase price to a dog rescue?

Didnt think so!

> I shalln't be giving up yet no matter how much your type look down their noses at me for daring to have a rescue, and not even a rescue BC. As nice as it is to do well its so much more satisfying beating people who've made comments like that.
>

wow! whats with the attitude?? who critisised you for having a rescue, no matter the origins of your dog they can make a great pet or obedience dog or whatever- i doubt anyone would argue with you over that.

and people think pedigree owners are snooty and snide...

> Pluses with rescues:
> - pets
> - already spayed/neutered
> - up to date on shots

When we got our rescue dog 10 years ago he wasn't neutered. We got him form a small, local shelter, the shelter since has changed hands so maybe they now have a neuter/spay policy?

> Sorry but I just can't see the logic in asking the small group of people that do it right and whose dogs aren't in the rescue centres to stop what they're doing to support bad breeding practices or to contribute to the end of their beloved dogs.

standing ovation for you lori, damn right

> have had a rescue dog, he was a crossbreed (the only rescue I would have for above reason) and was wonderful - a one off! but he was the most expensive dog I ever owned, the vets was our second home :-( 
>

ditto our rescue mastiff- we wouldnt have changed him for the world but was easily the most pricey we ever had, mainly because we couldn;t have insured as he already had a leg problem. he ended up being pts at approx 6 because his HD was so bad he was screaming, and i really mean screaming, whenever he tried to stand.

rescues do very good work but do tacitly support the horrific practises of BYB and puppy farmers. if everyone started getting their dogs from good breeders we would help stop people going through that heart ache.

rescues can be wonderful, so can pedigrees- i never understand why people see it as an issue you need to be on one side or the other of- we all love dgs, they are all dogs, ergo no matter the origin we should like them.

I've got a pedigree rescue :)  Would have loved a pup but Copper was there and homeless so I took him.  I don't consider my self snooty for having a pedigree or self righteous for having a rescue dog.  I do consider myself slightly insane though for putting up with his antics all these years :D  I don't have any opinion really on rescue or bought pup.  If the dog you want is there, for a pet, for breeding, or showing, just have him no matter what he is. 

CG

> rescues can be wonderful, so can pedigrees- i never understand why people see it as an issue you need to be on one side or the other of- we all love dgs, they are all dogs, ergo no matter the origin we should like them.

Exactly!! I love both of my dogs as much as each other and they both get the best care possible - the rescue cross-bred & the pure-bred :)

> The only problem for me is that rescues aren't health tested, I can guess what breeds are in my dogs and the health problems they might have and I'll watch out for them. I know that the parents are almost 100% guaranteed not to be hip scored or other breed appropriate tests.

This is the only real hitch for me as well - especially as my chosen breed is dobes, and they are prone to many things - cardimyopathy, hypothyroidism, spay incontinence in the girls, haemophilia of varying degrees and wobbler's to name a few.

Having said that, not knowing the breeding of a rescue dobe wouldn't stop me getting one - if it did, I wouldn't have my dobergirl Soli.  She was spay incontinent already when I took her on, and now she has serious hypothyroidism.

> my dobergirl

lol, love that

i don't post much on here but thought i would put my point across on this, we are a breed rescue, springers for what its worth (and no we're not funded by breeders) and i would like to explain to you how we work, i would also like to point out that there are a lot of rescues out there who work like us, for one we don't have kennels, all our dogs are fostered in experienced springer homes so that dogs can be properly assesed, for all medical and behavioural problems, they stay for a minimum of 2 weeks but the average is a month, they all go to the vets for a thorough check up when they come in, whether they need to or not, they are all neutered, vaccinated, microchipped, flead and wormed, if they do have pre-existing medical conditions when they are homed, the vet bills for these are at the least subsidised by us, if not payed in full, all dogs are homed with an agreement that we will take them back at any time if the need arises, and yes we have in the past taken dogs back. We thoroughly homecheck and Vet all potential new owners so that we can match the right dog with the right owner, this works very well, and we have happy owners and happy dogs.

We homed over 200 dogs last year, and will probably rehome more this year, it started on New years day with 2, 4 month old pups both with KC registration, who when i contacted the breeder didn't want to know. Out of the 200 last year there were very few with Behavioural problems or baggage as you put it, as you say about good breeders and doing your research, there are also a lot of good rescue's out there (not just breed ones i hasten to add) that work in similar ways to good breeders, to say you can't get what you want from a rescue is just not true, you just have to work a little harder at it, just like finding a good breeder

I would like to add my last rescue boy came from the breed rescue.  Although I do not have his papers ,I know a little of his back ground .I had support help and advise from the welfare representatives. We were visited and assessed before we took over his care. Despite me having always been a dog owner, this I was most impressed with. All the work is done on a voluntary basis and only a small fee was asked to cover admin. I can not praise or "THANK" these people enough.

Moonmaiden - I am talking large dogs - not the small or medium where the situation is very different do to class sizes. speed of dogs jump height in relation to dog size etc. means progression is much more possible - because there are less dogs in these classes.  You can't just walk into agility with any dog and expect to win up to grade 7.

Most people are not experts but mere mortals who do agility or obedience or working trials because it is good for their dog and because they want to!   Even if the dog is suited to do well in the activity people have other responsibilities in their lives or simply like to do other things with their dogs too and so can't take the activity to a very high level anyway!    They don't nesessarliy fail to make the grade - they simply don't have the desire to wa nt yo be top competetors!  To do well requires a huge amount of obsessive committment on the part of the handler before the suitability of the dog even matters.  The majority of people who train their dogs in these activities really do it for fun and to to win or to progress all that far.

As a total beginner  my dogs were bought from pups but were randomley selected and raised as pets, until within the fitst year I realised we had accoumplised every target available for pet dogs and needed something more.  And so started obedience and agility and with no training clun and not much effoer regarding training my boy he is good at pre beg obedience and gets placed but with a lot of training and the support of a club he is a total non starter at agility and I doubt he will ever even get a clear run let alone get placed!  My other will do well in starter agilty but switch off in obedience.  So as well as the handler it is also very much down to the personaslity of the dog as to how well suited they are to any sport/activity.

Agility isn't easy even at a beginner level and even even with the right handling ability and the right dog to win up is highly unlikely. And a rescued  dog with issues running off lead in a highly excited state isn't really anymore recepie for sucsess in agility then it would be in ovedience!  For both activities to take a rescue with issues and turn such a dog round is dedicated hard work and not always  possible.  This is in itself the challenge for handlers of these dogs and although they may well not become champions their achievements are still superb achievements.

I really have no interest in getting into an this sport is harder than that sport debate. They all require equal enthusiasm and dedication. 

But I can say agility is certainly one of the hardest things I've ever done!  It is like concert pianist - the easier it looks the harder it actually is. Top handlers may well make agility look easy but it really is very very difficult, especially with such huge class sizes!  Starting in obedience isn't easy either because the dog can be so distracted in a competition and even if you do your very best ther can always be another dog can easily be a fraction better.

> to say you can't get what you want from a rescue is just not true, you just have to work a little harder at it, just like finding a good breeder

but the main issue will be that the dogs breeding is likely to be not of the best/haphazard, no health tests, no selection for the right temperament/characteristics.

As you have said you have in dogs whose breeders do not want to know, so their breeding and rearing will be equally doubtful.

Breeding should be about producing quality healthy examples of the breed to the best of the breeders art and veterinary science. 

Sadly most of the dogs ending up in rescue with breeders who don't give a not will not be of this calibre.  The poor dogs deserve to be born as physically and mentally sound as it is possible for them to be.

I find it surprising that you say breeders do not fund your breed rescue, if not who does.  In my own breed (albeit numerically small) it is the breed people (breeders and owners) who enable rescue to pick up the pieces when we get dogs in who mainly come from commercial breeding as almost every dog with recognised breeding will be re-homed through breeder/stud dog owner or their grape vine.

There would be no need of most rescues if dogs were only bred by the responsible breeder who takes full responsibility.  the only ones that there would be would be the odd dog where the breeder themselves was no longer alive/well enough etc to take on the dog.

> to say you can't get what you want from a rescue is just not true, you just have to work a little harder at it, just like finding a good breeder

Of course you can, the value of rescue dogs was never in question for me. My replies were to the question/concept posed in the original post. The OP suggested that we only take in rescues; that breeders should stop having litters and people should stop buying puppies. I understand the idea behind it, to avoid the sad situation of too many dogs in rescue. I just didn't agree that this was the appropriate way to tackle the problem.

> to say you can't get what you want from a rescue is just not true, you just have to work a little harder at it

Ok, so I could have got a Mastiff pup from rescue that would have met the following criteria ? :

Must be from a reputable breeder so I have some assurance on health and very importantly temperment, also so I have some assurane on 'type' (I'd prefer my chosen breed to actually look like it's supposed to).
Must be no older than 4 months due to fitting in with current rescue dog, animals & children - I haven't the experience of training a puppy that is older than that to fit in with kids, cats dogs & other small animals if it hasn't allready been used to them.

The majority of dogs in rescue have no problems at all, they are there for other reasons, marital break ups, change in circumstances, un-employment etc.

Many of the dogs I re home come with pedigree's, some of the breeders pass them on to us with a donation for re homing.

A minority do have problems, an example would the puppy bought to integrate in to the family from the good breeder, the theory is that you start off with a blank canvass and mould the puppy in to what you need, the puppy then grows up and is unsuitable, it may chase the family cat, it may not like being around children, so much for the blank canvass.

If the dog is to be a pet then the logical thing to do is wait for the dog that has come from a family and is proved as a good family dog that tolerates children etc.

What I find so sad about these debates is that the same old excuses pop up about rescues having all sorts of problems and needing dedicated owners, a rescue is an open book, the problems if there are any, are on show, a puppy from a breeder is a closed book that when opened may just jump up and bite you.

Buying a dog, any dog is a lottery, if you are looking for a pet, you have the chance of hedging your bets with a rescue.

Patience is a virtue, if you have it then the right dog will come to you, for those who don't work in rescue you would be surprised at what comes through, if you wait long enough all your boxes will be ticked.

> Patience is a virtue, if you have it then the right dog will come to you, for those who don't work in rescue you would be surprised at what comes through, if you wait long enough all your boxes will be ticked

Hm so you have dogs through your rescue that come from parents that have been DNA & Climical tested for all know genetic conditions, that are also good working dogs, with a brilliant temperament & tractability ? You won't have any problems rehoming your dogs will you.

Strangely enough I've never come across such a dog via a rescue

And because you haven't you feel it's OK to question the truth in my post.

You state that such a dog will come along into rescue-not with BC's I'm afraid & I'm still waiting for one of the BC rescues to come up with a dog from eye tested parents let alone DNA tested.  Been waiting for 20 years now BTW-perhaps after another 20 one will appear & in the meantime I shouldn't own a dog presumably ??

PS I do work in Rescue BTW

Beg your pardon, didn't realise we talking specifically about BC's, I stand by my comment, patience is a virtue, and as testing becomes the norm, or people are forced to test before breeding, then dogs coming through with all the health checks will become more common, so those that can't wait won't need so much patience.

As to you not owning a dog, surely that's a question only you and who ever gives you a dog should answer :)

> I find it surprising that you say breeders do not fund your breed rescue, if not who does. 

I'm presuming this is not a Breed Club rescue but a rescue that specialises in the breed.

Well if rescue means not paying for a dog I've got two rescues here-I was gifted both my older BCs on as a 13 week old puppy & the other as a 14 month old yearling.Ii didn't realise that rescue dogs were given(ie no cost)to their new owners(BTW neither were "surplus to requirements")

Since you work for a rescue I'm sure you're well aware of the meaning of rescue, you won't need me to educate you as you sail along in this ship of fools we call life, if you don't know the difference you really need to do your homework, a good start would be the issues regarding registered charities charging for animals.

Happy homework ;)

> would be the issues regarding registered charities charging for animals.
>

Don't most of them get round this by asking for a donation, an obligatory donation :-)?  Not sure I have heard of any that, literally, give their dogs away nor am I saying they should do as that does not seem like a sensible policy.