I know that a lot of people think complete dry food is great and I did at first but someone pointed out to me that dry food isn't exactly natural for a dog. Poppy loves Pedigree Complete dry food and it certainly suits her but she has only known dry food. I obviously want what's best for her and I think perhaps I should gradually change her over to the canned variety. She drinks a large amount of water and this is worrying me because although I know dogs are supposed to drink a lot when they're on dry food to re-hydrate it there are a lot of things added to our water and for a puppy drinking a lot can't be good can it? I'd really value anyone's advice about this.

I really don't think canned food is any better than the complete dry food, in fact it may possibly be worse. Canned food is highly processed, made out of all kinds of rubbish and is an expensive way of buying water, the biggest ingredient.

If you are worried about dry foods you could consider feeding a diet of raw meat and mixer (frozen tripe, chicken, beef, all easy to get hold of), or you could consider the Barf route which others could explain in more detail.

IMHO if you are sticking to the purchased ready made dog food then you are as well off with dried as canned.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Hi Sue, they are both processed so what makes you think canned is any better? Agree with Fleetgold, do some research on raw meaty bones or natural food. Theres a lot of info on it both on this board & the net.
Christine2

Hi Sue.
ALL dry foods are predominately cereals, don't make Poppy eat it, dogs are carnivores, meat eaters. My Border Terriers eat meat, both raw and cooked some veggies and marrow bones. They thrive on it. One of mine had digestive problems as a young dog, having tried James Wellbeloved, Pedigree Advance, Arden Grange and other so called premium completes, my dog still had colic and the "runs" frequently. My vet said he thought (after tests) feed him meat, from that day all the dogs eat meat and NO more digestion problems. Give it a go Sue, let Poppy tell you how much she enjoys it.
Dawn.

Hi Joan Could I just ask is this green tripe we are talking? I did not know you could still buy this
I remember my bull terriers loved this was just wondering if freddie and Zac would
do well just a couple times a week having it .

Pat xx

Sue, if complete food is suiting Poppy as you say I don't see any reason for you to worry about giving it to her, my dogs have all been fed on it and are fit and healthy consequently I feel not the slightest twinge of guilt in feeding it ;)

Since canned food is soft and 'sticky', you would really have to be dedicated to brushing your dog's teeth. The softer the food, the quicker the tooth decay :(

I've only given canned when my elderly Yorkie was having difficulty chewing and she was losing weight fast. :( Other than that, I've stuck to dry food. BARF does intrigue me, despite its unfortunate moniker. But since my two small dogs are doing fine on what they're eating, I"m not rocking the boat. :rolleyes:
toodles

ALL dry food is not predominatly grain. ALL tined food is predominatly water. Ja:)kie

This from a foil tray of Winalot "Vitality+" A lesson in reading labels:

"Ingredients: Meat and animal derivatives (Chicken min.4%), Vegetables (min.4%), Eggs and egg derivatives, Minerals, VARIOUS SUGARS. Contains EEC permitted Colourant"

SUGARS?? What does a dog need added sugar for?? To make the poor animal think it actually LIKES this rubbish, that's what for! No wonder modern canned food carves up their teeth, we may as well be feeding them minced rat and Tate & Lyle.

Having said that, mine just won't eat the so-called "Complete" stuff

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

I agree with the lady with the Borders (sorry didn't note your name before I decided to type!) Go BARF!!!!!! No runs, no sickness, no bad teeth, just a natural diet and contented dogs! Lets be honest, if you put down some raw meat and a bowl of dried what would 99.9% of dogs eat first. They eat dried because there is nothing else but as a committed BARF lady pointed out to me - in the wild when a dog was hungry what would he do, open a sack of Eukanuba or eat meat and veggies? As you can tell, I am a convert to feed natural - and its so easy. No waste in our house!

I don't like sugars in dog food either, but I think its supposed to help the consistency of the product, not make the food 'taste' any different. Surely, there's something else they can use.

I am starting to get a real kick out of the growing popularity usage of the phrase "In the wild, our dogs....." :D :D :D Domesticated dogs haven't been wild for over 20,000 years. We have long tweaked them to human needs and wants. Their digestive tracks are no longer identical with the Wild dogs in Africa.

If one does want to compare food styles with the wild dogs, it's feast or famine. Food doesn't appear regularly. They don't order out for steak and potatos. Periods of hunger can go for quite a while due to natural competition with lions or hyenas. When food comes, it is portioned with an eye to the ranking of the pack. Pups, Alphas, and whatever left goes to the lesser dogs.... sometimes nothing. I don't think anyone wants their dog to be that 'realistic' though ;)

I watched an actual African dog pack in the Frankfurt zoo during feeding time... fascinating -- Michael had to drag me away after 40 minutes of observation :P

That said, dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. Anything scroungable is fair game, including rotten food. Sometimes the smellier the better. :D Even a well fed and full stomached dog will gleefully peruse a garbage bin to its heart delight. Are we giving our dogs garbage, just because they like it? ... I think not! ;) :rolleyes:

Sure, the food companies have managed to put the vast majority of dogs on kibble and canned food within one generation. More people own dogs now than ever before. Some just due to the easy convenience of food and neutering programs :D But it's not evil or wrong. It's a convenient tool which sometimes has to be adjusted to the needs of particular individuals.

Just like people, dogs are individuals. What might suit one, could cause a reaction in another. I can't eat a lot of foods that other people take for granted...is it because of the food industry? ...nah. Just is :rolleyes:
jmho
toodles

hi
How many Wolves, African Hunting dogs, Dingo's, Cape Hunting dogs, Dholes etc... do you know to have had bloat? NONE!! why . they are fed on meat. Dogs are NOT omnivores, they are carnivores, it's just US that have changed their eating habits. 30 yrs ago there was hardly any digestive, behavioural problems in dogs, most pets were fed on table scraps and odd bits of meat from the local butcher (I know ours was) strangley, since then we see more problems, that does co-incide with the introduction of processed foods becoming available for dogs, consisting mainly of CEREAL.
Dawn.

Greetings and salutation,

Correlation does not automatically prove causation... Too many unconsidered factors. sorry. :(

If we are to get on the subject of bloat.... It began with large breeds and then (seemed) to move on into giant and med. breeds. All purebreds. I haven't heard of any mutts ever getting bloat (not to say that it hasn't happened).

Wild dogs do not have the extreme sizes that exist in domestic canines. Personally, I think that the 'unnatural size' contributes to the likelihood of bloat, esp. with the longer digestive tract. After all, have any small breed dogs had bloat around here? (ducking for cover) ;) :O

As to the debate on dogs: Omnivores or Carnivores. Here are a couple of discussions:

Pets and Vegetarianism
Carnivore vs Omnivore definitely pro carnivore, but the bottom of the page states Nutritional definitions.

There are more, with arguments for each side...but it's comes down to this basic fact:

Cats are carnivores. They cannot survive on plant based food for survival. Dogs can....not the perfect health, but in the wild, who has the time to be truly picky? ;) This causes dogs to be classed as omnivores.

Sure, dogs might prefer meat and can subsist soley on a protein based diet. They also need nutrients that are available within vegetable organisms.... They'll still go eat grass, though ;) It's preferable to have nutrients from the plant arena (Vitamin C does not exist in meat which is necessary for better health in maturity) :)

But face it, regardless of meat or plant, dogs live much much longer and better in our hands than they ever would in the wild. Hooray for the lazy comforts of the sofa ;)

Interestingly enough, my first posting was off of those who were saying natural is better, so bring on the meats, vegis, and fruits..but then stating dogs are carnivorous in the wild and long ago. .. These actions of today are basis for omnivorous argument, not the carnivorous side. Can't have it both ways. :D Take the omni pov, it covers both sides of the fence ;) :D :D

toodles

Greetings to you too.
Mutts, yes had quite a few having had bloat, their owners advised us prior to boarding, and my friends Jack Russell died of it, because they thought it was something else as small dogs did not get it ! Dogs are carnivores, they should eat meat, regardless of what we have changed about them, and the fact that most dogs will eat anything, (chairs, table legs, curtains etc..!) when Wolves are starving, they do not survive on plants do they? if they could survive on this, they wouldn't starve to death would they. OK, over to you. :D
Dawn.

Just continuing the 'debate' ... fun, isn't it? No heat or ire on my part :D :D

Hands down -- Dogs are not wolves. Genetically they're close, but not identical. Wild dogs do dig for roots and munch happily on berries when available. Actually, so do wolves, when it's available...but up north, growing season isn't as long and (ahem) fruitful ;)

If wolves are starving....it's usually wintertime or early spring. Only deciduous firs are alive. They aren't herbivores like deer or horses, so grass and tree branches wouldn't feed them. :) Humans wouldn't thrive on just tree bark, either. :rolleyes: :D BTW, an ailing wolf dies... no vet available for him ;) Geriatric wolves just are not common outside of preserves and zoos. Perhaps extra vitamins might help them out too :D :D :D

Just a thought.... How does one know that dogs haven't been dying from bloat longer than 15 or so years ago? Necropsies were few and far between. Couldn't someone think their dog was 'poisoned' and it was really bloat? Or vise versa going on today? We really can't know for certain.
Absence of information doesn't mean occurence happened or did not happen. (lord, that statistics class I took 2 years ago really corrupted my method of evaluating info. Prof. even predicted it to do so :P :P :D)

Same thing is happening with diseases... Because we weren't able to categorize every single ailment that killed 60+ years ago, more people are thinking that there are more diseases now than ever. When it basically comes down to better diagnoses and treatment occuring. When I look at old death certificates, "Brain Fever" and "Heart sickness" are such vague terms. They could mean any of about 10 different reasons for death today, maybe more.

I think we can agree to disagree on this subject. There's plenty of room for all sides. But I know I'd love to be able to just open a bag for myself and chow down without preparing cold raw meat, cooking, peeling, scouring pans, washing dishes, and cleaning the kitchen :D :D :D
I probably wouldn't be as heavy with such a dull bland diet :D :D
toodles

Not at all, that's what the board is for!

I know of a vet of 50yrs experience (yes he is old now!) he states he never saw bloat in his younger days. wild dogs etc. pick berries, but not as a food source, they cannot survive on them, they are a meat eating carnivore. What I do know from my parents, family members, vets and people I know is that, allergies to this, that and the other were not seen, the occasional mange here and there, but not this "fox mite" mange thing (shoot the lot for me, in towns). Dogs that could not eat this, dogs that were ill or hyper if they ate that were just not seen. Dogs were roaming the streets in packs, but not attacking people, so where have we gone wrong? feeding them on processed food, containing mostly cereals and additives thats where! (not saying that is the only problem) Give them what they should have, meat, some bones and a little veg here and there. See the difference, gaurantee it.
Cheers
Dawn.

Yep, wonderful place for a debate here on this forum :D :D :D
Ok here goes: :rolleyes:

Bloat kills overnight...so would people really take their dog to a vet the day after their dog died back in the days? Vets weren't really that respected or worshiped by many country people. When animals died, it was accepted part of life, buried the animal, felt sad, and went on with life.
(remember, 50 yrs ago, small animal care was considered a luxury, still is in many parts of the world). My mom and her horsey people are still more likely to treat their own horses with experience and one another than to consult an "expensive fancy dr. having a piece of paper" :)

Despite working at a vet for three years + considerable experiences with dogs over the decades, I have yet to actually meet anyone (other than on here and by reading articles) whose dogs died from or experienced bloat. I've met people who "know of someone, who knew someone's else dog...", but if it were truly that epidemic like many make it out to be, wouldn't it be more prevalant in US and UK society?

Not saying that I'm the center of the universe ;) ;) , but I have lived in WA, NM, Wash. DC, Maryland, Korea, Germany and making contact from dog people all over the world. Surely if it's so widespread, I could have at least met someone with firsthand knowledge of it???? :rolleyes: I know that certain breeds do have a "higher incidence and tendency towards" bloat....again, vast majority are large and giant dogs. I'm not wanting to minimize Bloat's deadliness, just trying to put it in perspective with other "health risks" to worry about. :(

In my thinking, I just cannot blame the increase of bloat on dogfood companies make, otherwise it would affect all breeds of varied sizes, not just some and within specific genetic lines.

I am more likely to believe the rise of dog problems in our society is due to the increasing numbers of pet owners, the variety of life styles/attitudes of training and care, + rise in population density esp. within suburbs and country life. Whew! that was a runon sentence, ay? :P

Health care has become more important to pet owners on the whole. We take them in for regular vet checkups and actually provide PET INSURANCE!!! :rolleyes: me grampy is rolling in his grave :) Life has really changed in the way us Westerners keep our dogs. Less households believe that a dog is to be kept permanently out in the yard (which was common 30 years ago). I remember an old lady being absolutely shocked when she discovered that my dogs were allowed in the living room. I didn't have the heart to tell her they ate in the kitchen :D :D :D

To get back on topic, though to determine if dogs are true carnivores or omnivores. It might be a good idea to think about cats...which are acknowledged carnivores. If you hand a cat a piece of fruit, it might lick it, but on average (there are always exceptions :)), wouldn't it just ignore it? Whereas a dog will likely eat it and successfully digest it. (again, exceptions :))

I'm not certain if those who are feeding the meat, veggies, and fruits are following BARF diet or not, but if they are, then their dogs are omnivorous. If the dog is being considered as carnivorous, then meat is the only thing that one is providing for the dog and it is happy with just that to eat. It would ignore any other type of food provided, unless it was starving. Then it would eat, only to survive and wait for food on the hoof to come along :) :D :D
jmho

May I Just thank you all this debate is so interesting ...:)

My great dane died of bloat was told by the vet that sheep get this
and we did not course this by given the wrong diet .....

Pat xx :)

Just a thought about Wolves not eating vegetation - they do don't they?

They kill their prey and start by eating the internal organs including the intestine which in most cases is full of partially digested vegetation, then they go to the muscle meat after the organs.

I always understood that any vegetation needs to be pulversised for the dogs to be able to make use of it otherwise it's just undigestable bulk. I always put my veg and fruit thru a juicer before I give it to my dogs.

I definitely need more sleep as I read Just a thought about Wolves not eating vegetation - they do don't they? as

Just a thought about Wolves not eating vegetarians - they do don't they?

Ooops :D

Fiona
x x x

ROFL Fiona....
So there is some good for rampant vegetarians after all --the food chain :D :D :D :D
ducking and hiding behind Fiona just in case there are some of the above mentioned individuals throwing rotton tomatoes

Remember 50yrs ago !!!!! I aint that old!!!!

Wolves do not eat the vegetation in their prey's stomachs, that is a myth, they gorge themselves on flesh, leaving things like heavy bone an feet etc... these do not readily digest.

I am surprised you haven't seen bloat yourself (although, that is good as far as the dog is concerned!) I have seen many cases. My friends Lab had it twice, I know of a Bernese Mountain dog that has blew up 6 times and is still ok! another friend of mine her Bullmastiff had it, boy did he blow up fast!!! saved though.

Still don't agree that dogs are omnivores, never will, and as far as I am concerned I will not feed my dogs additives, preservative, colourings, cereal, wheat, maize, barley everything a dog is NOT about, just because it is convienient to me, I love them too much for that.
There, can't think of anything else at the moment!
:D :D :D
Dawn.

My 3mth old Lab puppy had a torsion/bloat (& another name that vet said but can`t remember at the mo) & but for the fact I had read of the symptoms & acted quickly she would have died & in a few hours not over night.
Christine2
PS.
Another thing that should be taken in to consideration on this topic is all the pollution both chemical & man made that affects every living thing & how it gets into the food chain. It MUST have an affect on our dogs.

Apologies if I've missed this question being answered already. Dawn you said

>> How many Wolves, African Hunting dogs, Dingo's, Cape Hunting dogs, Dholes etc... do you know to have had bloat? NONE!!

Can I ask how do we know that none suffer from bloat? Is someone/something monitoring them all ? How do we know it is a fact ?

Thanks. :-)

Actually, since I can say that I truthfully am not acquainted personally with any of the above forementioned individuals.... I can say "None" Because I know none ;) :) :D :D :D :D

Hi Claire.
I base it on the research I have done into these wild dogs etc.. and the history of them kept in captivity, don't forget all captive Wolves etc... are fed meat!! the only way to go in my opinion.
Dawn.

Thanks Dawn. :-)