Hi, can anybody let me know what they would do in my situation.

A lady came to visit me and my puppies last week as she was interested in buying one.  She seemed lovely and already had a b1tch of this breed and so I took a nominal deposit from her to secure the puppy.  She's due to pick her up in a week but I'm now starting to have my doubts as to her intentions with the pup.  She now mentions that she wants to breed from her and for me to lift the endorsements.  I've explained that this is not a straight forward yes on my part and have forwarded her my puppy contract which states she must not mate her before her second birthday and I will only lift the endorsements on the conditions that she can provide me with the relevant satisfactory health test results and that a breed specialist deems her to be a good example of the breed.  She then tells me that she has bred her other b1tch on her first season and she had one puppy by c section all at the tender age of 15 months and her vet said that was Ok!!!!!!  I ask her waht the great rush is to breed her, surely she can see the advantage of waiting until the puppy is fully grown and of great health and temperamant before this is even considered, she then agrees.

My dilema is that I'm starting to doubt that even if she does sign my contract (which was written up with legal advice) she'll go ahead and breach it anyway as I thnk it's going in one ear and out the other.  Should I give her the benefit of the doubt or should I trust my gut?

I would trust your gut and give her a full refund of her deposit. :)

Go with your instincts.  I know if this was me in this situation, she'd be getting her deposit back.  The pups welfare is obviously not a priority to her if she's already bred her other bitch at 15 months!!  I hardly think any responsible vet would OK this either!

I'm starting to think that.  My face just dropped when she told me she had bred her.  On a further note, I asked her what she would do with the puppies, she has no network, she doesn't show and has no exposure and her answer was to keep them all.  Fair enough they only have small litters, but I'd be damned if I knew anyone with the best intentions in the world that kept a whole litter. I'm starting to think she may be looking at this a cash cow - more fool her!!!

oh and another thing, she sold the pup that her immature b1tch produced as it was a dog and wouldn't volunteer the sale price.

refund and goodbye!!!!

Oh dear, I would go with my gut too.

I hope that she will take the refund, having done contracts yourself you know that having taken a deposit you are now in a bit of a dilema having made a contract of sale with her.

You need to strip these potential clients to the core before taking a deposit, asking all of these questions first, that way if you break a deposit contract on something your unhappy with it can be due to them not disclosing it when questioned previously.

Do you think she would breed your pup without the endorsements lifted, do you get the impression she would breed regardless of having the KC registration as that is what would happen without them being lifted? Your pup may still be protected by your endorsement.

If you think that she is likely to be unscrupulous then yes, use your own instincts to decide that, they are our only defence in these situations and try to get her to have a refund.

I hope that she will take her money back. :-)

I am not a breeder but i would go with my gut feeling on this one.

This is the thing, the actual contract has not yet been signed, I have given her a simple receipt for the deposit towards the dog and explained that she will need to sign the contract before she gets the pup.  I've sent her the contract and she has read it, her questions following that were the trigger for my doubt that she would actually stick to it.

I'm not confident that if I give her the pup, this time next year she'll not push me to have the endorsements lifted earlier using the 3rd season excuse (where's my proof?)  which I simply wouldn't do.  And to be honest, I'm not confident that not being able to KC register the pups is enough of a deterrent for her.  The more I sit and think about it, the more I can see it all ahead, me trawling the internet in a years time for any pups for sale that could be connected.

Why are you still chewing over this problem? Surely the answer is obvious.

It's one thing to be shocked and horrified that someone has done all these things to a puppy you've bred when seen in hindsight,
but you've been told what she intends to do.

This is why I don't take deposits -she could demand to have the pup as you have entered into contract by accepting a deposit. You just have to hope she'll agree to have the deposit back.

I don't take deposits for this reason too, and also because I wouldn't want someone feeling they have to have a puppy because they've paid a deposit, even though they might have changed their minds. 

Give the deposit back, and say that you arent selling her a puppy, for your stated reasons. 

It would be different if she said "I want a show quality bitch, to add to my breeding stock" upfront because then you would know, and you can ask follow up questions, about showing and health testing, but this is blindsiding you.

I would say, that since the contract isnt signed, then you arent at a meeting of the minds, so there is room to back out.  But thats MPO, so I dont know how much it would hold up, if the buyer took it further.

I too never take deposits as I like to be as sure as possible my pups are going to the owners I hope for them,   I ask as many questions as I can think of before I let them come to see the puppies and only when i`m satified I will offer a puppy .I have refused people as I`m sure others have by just talking to someone wanting one of my puppies.

I would do as everyone else has suggested and return her deposit immediately.  I had a situation previously similar to yours where I had second thoughts about the suitablity of the family I had taken a deposit from.  I did return their money (they paid cash - so returned Registed Post) and had several difficult telephone calls to deal with. 

Since then, I have changed my strategy.  In this day and age, where a lot of correspondance is done via email, one cannot accurately gauge people so I invite them to come and view the puppies and see if what they have told me via email is the same as they're saying when they're here.  At the end of the visit I ask them to go home and think everything through thoroughly as I will and then get back to me with a decision as to whether or not they would actually want one of my  puppies.  This also gives me time to evaluate them as potential owners.  I also find it easier to refuse someone by email or telephone as opposed to having them in your home and telling them you think they are not suitable to have one.  I then ask them for a small deposit to reserve a puppy.

I had to do this from a litter earlier this year, and although it still wasn't a pleasant thing to do, it was easier in the fact that I hadn't taken any money from her to hold the puppy and I had also not actually said 'yes' you can have one of them.

Always, take your time when vetting a potential new owner and most definitley go by your gut instincts.

which states she must not mate her before her second birthday and I will only lift the endorsements on the conditions that she can provide me with the relevant satisfactory health test results and that a breed specialist deems her to be a good example of the breed.  She

Actually, If this is what your contract states then why are you worried, you say 2nd Birthday, she can not force you to lift your endorsements you are completley incharge of them, you hold all the cards here.  Nothing is even signed endorsement wise, so by rights you can even edit them too, to say that the breed specialist needs to be from show entries.

She may well wish to pull out herself once she realises this, get the contract back quickly and amend it, or have a new one drawn up and sent out to her and look forward to having the refund asked for. :-)

I agree Ells-Bells,its much easier to tell them to go home and think about it.

I wont take a deposit,unless the person is known to me,i read my contract through with them,pointing out the endorsments,and then tell them to take it home and think about it.I offer to hold their choice,that i have given them,for 3 days.

Than if you are a bit unsure it is easier to tell them via phone or e-mail you dont think your pup will suit them or their lifestyle.

Def return deposit.

It's a no brainer to me, don't let her have the pup and go with your gut instincts!

In law, a contract constitutes an offer and an acceptance. These can be written or verbal. The only time a verbal contract does not apply is when property is involved. However, a deposit does not constitute a contract. It is an offer to make an offer, if that makes any sense. The purchaser could still claim that you had a verbal contract, but she would have to know the law. In future, if you take deposits, the receipt should say ' Acceptance of this deposit by the seller does not constitute a contract. The seller reserves the right to terminate any verbal or written contract should he/she become aware of any circumstances pertaining to the potential purchaser which may compromise the well being of the puppy'. And to cover yourself it should also say ' Should the puppy reserved by the potential purchaser die, or become ill to such an extent that the potential purchaser does not wish to fulfil the purchase, the seller reserves the right to return the deposit in full as a termination of any contract, assumed or actual' This will protect you in case the worst should happen and the puppy should die. It prevents the buyer from claimimg a contract to supply 'a puppy' and taking the one you wanted to keep for showing. I also add a rider which says' Should the potential purchaser change their mind about fulfilling the purchase before the puppy is six weeks old, I will return the deposit in full. If the potential purchaser changes their mind about fulfilling the purchase after the puppy is six weeks old, I reserve the right to retain all or part of the deposit to cover the cost of re-advertising'. Edited to say. Sorry I forgot to add that the contract you have sent to her will be useless unless you have both signed it. Hopefully you didn't sign it before you sent it to her.

This is why I don't take deposits -she could demand to have the pup as you have entered into contract by accepting a deposit. You just have to hope she'll agree to have the deposit back.

That isn't quie correct that she could demand the puppy, if some fundamental thing chances between the deposit and the purchase both parties can be relieved from the contract.  What the fundamental thing is and how fundamental the thing is will always be up for disagreement but there is a get out clause there if you need it.

HOWEVER I totally agree that a deposit should only be taken if 100% sure and really if you have been interested in puppies as most good breeders do a deposit is often not worth the bother.

a deposit does not constitute a contract. It is an offer to make an offer,  Hi Saxon , I know where you are coming from but that isn't correct. A deposit does form the contact but between the deposit and the contract being completed if something fundamental happens or is discovered then either party can be relieved from the contract.  A deposit is not an offer of an offer.

The bottom line is ( and I don't encourage people generally to break contracts)

You return the deposit,  in legal terms by the time someone would take you to court ( not that this is likely to happen)  the puppy would have been sold to someone else, A court cannot make you hand over something you no longer have.   There are certainly not going to go down the " real right" path for a deposit on a puppy that can be bought elsewhere easily.  It isn't like it is the only puppy avaliable in the UK.   Something that had been more unique could have more serious consequences.

The contract is not signed by either party - it was sent to her purely so that she could read it and think about it before picking up the pup.  Nor did she take away her copy of the deposit receipt as she assured me she wouldn't need it, despite me offering to post it out to her.  I think I've learned my lesson the hard way here about deposits and will not be taking them for any future pups.  I could have avoided this whole situation and frankly feel like an idiot, but I really can't compromise the welfare of my puppy, I really do doubt her intentions and fell she would breach the actual contract and I would worry constantly waiting for this to happen.  I also have a duty of care to the stud dog owner that could be compromised by this buyer.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say.  I'm going to send the deposit back and call her to tell her the sale is off as per my stated reasoning.  Thanks for advice, I'll let you know how it goes.

PS  the dog she already has didn't come from me.

Good luck with it :)

Good luck Mini. Don't feel like an idiot.   My first litter I changed my mind about someone so most of us have been there at some point.

Hi Blue, I probably didn't word that quite correctly but you obviously know what I mean. Although, it's many years since I was a legal secretary and laws are sure to have changed.

Ok - job done.  I approached it in a sensitive and explanatory manner yet I received a barage of abuse and nasty threats.  Her attitude and spiteful revelations did nothing but confirm my doubts and I know I have made the right decision.  And the deposit was sent back registered mail, via cheque so I can be sure it has definitely been received.  I hope to have nothing more to do with this person in the future and will be making friends aware of what kind of dog she is looking for and why.  Lesson officially learned and gut definitely to be trusted.  Thanks for advice and support everyone.

happy to hear that you have got it all sorted out, and now you can rehome the puppy with a suitable owner!