Hi all,

Somebody that I know who lives in Spain wants to 'save' a dog. He is the same breed as my own but I am slighly sceptical and frankly worried.

The dog is male, 6 yrs old and has been used as a yard guard dog. He is totally unsocialised, very unreliable character because of undersocialisation, he has already bitten her when she went to stroke him when he wasn't looking/expecting it. Bearing in mind this dog weighs in excess of 7 stone despite being almost starved on a regular basis :( :( 

The 'owner' has said that he will dispose of him in the next few days if she doesn't take him. The dog has a lame front leg that stops him from 'guarding' the yard anymore. This is why the dog is being offered for re-homing.

I just feel that the dog has many issues and could become a liability (especially knowing the breed) I really want to believe in her skills in rehabilitation but somehow I feel that she will get her heart broken.

How and what can I say to her to advise caution without swaying her gut instinct?

At the end of the day it is her decision, but I need to be totally honest with her and with my knowledge of our breed I can't and won't advise lightly :(

Do you think that sometimes there is a scenario where you just have to say 'do not' and for the good of the dog 'enough?' As life would be a living hell? Purely because of the environment that it was bought up in?

Edited to say that my friend is fully prepared to pay for all of his Vet/behaviourist treatment regardless of cost.

Without knowing everything about this animal i think with the age , not to mention its an ex guard dog thats already showed volatile behaviour i would not recommend taking it on.
IMHO the kindest thing would probably be to put this dog to sleep. A great shame but the nicest and safest thing to do.

I'm with Freds Mum on this.  It's not the nicest thing to think of doing but it's the kindest and I feel that it will also be the safest.  What if a Kid was to stroke it while it was on a walk?

Agree with freds mum and icequeen, I think the kindest and safest thing for all concerned would be to put this dog to sleep.

I would at least give this dog a chance and your friend a pat on the back for giving this dog a normal home? it might only be like this due to its lack of care and attention and love! Maybe after a few months and he is still not safe then yes best to have to be pts. 

I don't think the dog could ever be considered 'reliable' and I'd reluctantly put it to sleep.

i agree, give this poor dog a chance, the dog can be muzzled in public and therefore can never bite a child or anyone else for that matter, if he is fully understanding what he is taking on and prepared to give it every chance then i say 'good for him' one chance at least, surely this poor dog deserves that, it may go on to be a loving companion with the right input. i wish him all the best if he chooses to take this dog on :)

I took on a dog that was unpredictable, unsocialised, aggressive and a downright pain in the backside.  Admittedly he wasn't seven stone but he was hellish hard work.  He has turned out still to be hard work but a very worthwhile pet.  I was in the situation where I was on my own, no children, time to train him and patience.  He might have been put down eventually because of his behaviour but I was prepared to commit to him.  He's bitten me, snapped and been vicious and still has the capability to do so.

If your friend is willing to commit, realises what she's taking on and is prepared to do what it takes to give this dog a home then I would give it a go.  But that doesn't mean trying it for a couple of weeks and giving up.  I'm five years down the line and it is still an ongoing process.  She has to REALLY think hard about what she's taking on.

CG

I have to agree with the pro-taking it peeps here - give the dog a chance.  Yes, he may turn out to be a lost cause - in which case, the best option would be to PTS.  On the other hand, with work, he may turn out to be a fantastic dog who just needed some love and TLC.

Even if she does take him on and has to have him PTS - that may well be the better option than letting his current owner 'dispose' of him - who knows what that may mean?

i think you should say it how you put it here, you expressed yourself clearly and compassionately, thats all you can do.

Terribly sad but you can't save all the dogs in the World.  You can end the suffering of some of them though by putting them to sleep.  It's not like the dog will know what's about to happen but it will not suffer ever again.

Pity we can't do the same for the owner really which would save future dogs in his possession.

Im with you on this one Freds Mum.
It would seem the best thing to do for the dog.

I took on a dog that was unpredictable, unsocialised, aggressive and a downright pain in the backside.  Admittedly he wasn't seven stone but he was hellish hard work.  He has turned out still to be hard work but a very worthwhile pet.  I was in the situation where I was on my own, no children, time to train him and patience.  He might have been put down eventually because of his behaviour but I was prepared to commit to him.  He's bitten me, snapped and been vicious and still has the capability to do so.

I agree copper girl
I too have taken on an unpredictable, unsocialised, aggressive and a general problem dog. He had been badly abused and he was bloody hard work and you always had to be one step ahead of him and predict possible danger. I too was on my own and able to offer the care he needed and the care to make him as happy as he could be. he snapped at me and had the potential to bite but with care and understanding he never did. He was due to be put to sleep and I took him home and I spent 11 1/2 wonderful years with him. He was never a normal dog but I loved him for who he was and he was my boy.

I hate the rescue programmes on tv where dogs are PTS for being food aggressive because in my opinion there is someone out there who will have the time and the energy to reabilitate that dog. I know those people are few and far between but give the dog a chance if it doesn't work then at least your friend can say she tried.

I can see where people are coming from and why they would want to try and save this dog but is it really giving the dog a great quality of life to be constantly muzzled and not enjoy the freedom of running free or socialising with others. I personally wouldnt behappy with taking the risk & would be extremely angry if/when this dog attacks and the owner admits it was warned about its nature and ex guarding history

Bearing in mind this dog weighs in excess of 7 stone despite being almost starved on a regular basis   


Yes, this is the way many guard dogs are trained abroad, starved to make them more aggressive, he has done well to live to 6, in South Africa GSD's are used in this way and not many live so long. :-(

To be honest I think more info is needed, as to what kind of guard dog he has been, if a yard dog?  Does this mean he is just left to roam a yard, with no socialising, lack of feeding, and left to guard at his own intuition, barking to warn? Or has he been trained to attack and been used to infact attacked other people and become very people aggressive? Guard dogs here are not allowed to bite a person just to warn, how was he trained, or not? More insight is needed to know what he has or hasn't done in the past, it will make a huge difference.

A dog just left to guard, I would not write off just yet, with the help of a behaviourist and being given a 'home' with a one to one trainer/owner with regular feeding he will soon settle to most probably become a wonderful loyal pet. Dogs adapt and are eternally loyal to those who care for them, it is something this dog has never had, not ever having it does not mean it will not embrace a new lifestyle and does not mean it will be aggressive at all.

But, if this dog is people and perhaps even dog aggressive, (not just territorial as he is bound to be now) I wouldn't touch him with a barge pole.

As I said more info on what type of guard dog he has been is very relevant.

A real hard one i must admit, i have known people to do it but it can take months sometimes even years and you still end up with problems, as long as she is aware of the problems and are able to keep them at bay then yes it can be done but then can i see real problems with yard dogs especially the older they are the less likely they are to accept another way of life bcoz its all they know so the best thing to do would be PTS. Considering the dog is 6 and it could take 2-3yrs to rehab it may be to late by then. Unfortunately my dog does not come of his lead unless i can see for miles ahead and miles behind due to recent bad publicity in the media but this does not mean his life is any different or lacks excercise he has an extendable lead, its a case of i'd rather keep him safe than someone saying he'd done something when he hadn't it is hard work defending him constantly knowing that he isn't like the media make out, he has changed alot of minds on his walks, but i can imagine it would be very hard work for her.

Just thought i'd reply that alot of behaviourists are trying to get the "plastic hand" test banned as a test because they are saying that if someone took something away from you you'd guard it aswell, so its the same for the dog, by taking the dinner away this can cause the dog to guard more especially if they have been starved like you see on tv.

> Just thought i'd reply that alot of behaviourists are trying to get the "plastic hand" test banned as a test because they are saying that if someone took something away from you you'd guard it aswell, so its the same for the dog, by taking the dinner away this can cause the dog to guard more especially if they have been starved like you see on tv.

I hate that 'plastic hand' test - all it proves that a dog in a shelter situation will guard it's food against strangers, it says nothing about how the dog will behave when it has been given a loving home with people it can trust & some training :( A dog may feel to cowed to guard in that situation so will be homed as being non-food guarding and when given a chance to 'settle in' to a new home and find some confidence, may well turn out to be a food-guarder!

Anyway, back to the original topic,

It would be lovely if the dog can be homed and trained to lead a decent 'normal' doggie life, but Carrington hit the nail on the head - if the dog has actually been attack-trained it is completey different to him being given free-run of a yard and left to it.

For me the question is whether or not I would be prepared to live with a dog who may never be trustworthy, regardless of how much time and training I put into rehabilitating them.  Having lived with a dog who was not trustworthy with either other dogs or people because of inbred temperament issues (she was fear-aggressive) - I would never want to do it again. 

IMO, owning and being owned by dogs should be a pleasure for all concerned, otherwise there's no point.

Cairnmania.......agree, i would find it far to stressful never being able to know if today was the day he ripped into something or someone, or me. You only know if all your work has been successful once the dog has ended its full life and passed on, without attacking anyone. The way you find out its not worked is the day it attacks. The risk would be to great, and i wouldn't want anyone else to be harmed because I wanted to try to save a dog that has a very dodgy upbringing, one of which you will never know the full details, and it shows agression now. I can't see the current owner admitting if this dog had ever bitten, human or other animal, or if it had been encouraged to attack humans. I feel great sorrow for the dog, but could never trust it.

IMO, owning and being owned by dogs should be a pleasure for all concerned, otherwise there's no point.

Certainly.

Hi Carrington,

His case history is that he has been with this 'yard owner' since he was 6 months old, before that I don't know. The yard is a scrap metal yard and he has been left to roam with no socialisation and left to guard on his own intuition. He hasn't been trained to 'attack' but probably has due to the yard being broken into on several occasions, or at the very least given a nasty nip because of feeling under threat. He's clearly never had any training from what they tell me as he doesn't understand the basic commands like sit etc.

As you say, just because he has been left to guard and bring himself up doesn't necessarily mean that he is a write off. However...it's his unpredictability that worries me as my breed (as do a lot of other breeds) if not vastly socialised from a very early age can suffer character flaws in this area coupled with nervousness.

Understandably he is very territorial but can be coaxed, obviously with food. I also believe that he has many trust issues due to the very harsh treatment that he has received from his current 'owner' - if you can call such a person that! He won't go near men but isn't overtly aggressive towards them unless they forcefully enter his space.

My friend has taken on rescue dogs for a good many years of her life and devotes herself to lost causes but I am still of the opinion that this is too much, even for her. Her Vet has already advised against it. As much as I love dogs I don't feel that this one can ever be properly rehabilitated. It would be like sitting on a time bomb IMO.

I am due to speak to her tonight again having had several long discussions about it already. So reluctantly will advise against it. She has already said that should she not take him that she will ensure that he is humanely PTS. :(

Thanks for all of your input :)

Thanks for the update much clearer now,

In his yard he is top dog and master of his small universe, he has his territory and will defend it and has no dog to human etiquite at all does he, in effect he has kind of been left to behave as he would in the wild, so his dog instincts completely rule him.

I'm glad that your friend is taking him out of his territory to save or pts, I think it is important that he is moved from his 'home' to gage whether there is a massive change to his behaviour once away from there. Away from his domain he can turn one of two ways.

We all know how important socialising is, how bad interactions with humans or dogs can scar for life, however sometimes a dogs character can overcome these huge obsticles, if a dog never shown love and constistancy is given it,  it can change their whole thought patterns, but sometimes the 'damage' is too imprinted.

However he would need a darn good behaviourist this dog is used to calling the shots, on a board we can't judge the character of this dog, he may be extremely aggressive and unmanagable, or he may be easily re-trained and become a great friend once away from his yard.

Without meeting the dog I would not like to advise your friend either way as the dog has not been properly assessed, I understand your worries hairypooch and you know your breed well and how an unsocialised dog can be a real handful as can many breeds, but for now I would give the benefit of the doubt and allow a behaviourist (not a vet) to give an honest opinion on whether this dog is giving any signs of human interaction that can be worked with. It can't be done at the yard, but needs to be done away.

When she takes him he needs to be muzzled for safety and unpredictablility's sake as she does not know the dog at all, but I would have him assessed myself first. :-)

It would be wonderful to give this dog a happy ending, whether that is a real home with a chance to turn him around or a final trip to the vets, but I commend your friend on caring enough to do either. :-)

Just to add Hairypooch, does your friend have children?

If she does, she can not play rescue with this dog, as much as I feel there may be hope, she can not take on a dog she does not know or understand if she has children.

If she does I am with you 100% that she must not take on this dog.

> I hate that 'plastic hand' test - all it proves that a dog in a shelter situation will guard it's food against strangers, it says nothing about how the dog will behave when it has been given a loving home with people it can trust & some training  A dog may feel to cowed to guard in that situation so will be homed as being non-food guarding and when given a chance to 'settle in' to a new home and find some confidence, may well turn out to be a food-guarder!

Not only that, but very often - at least in the animal cop type programs - the dogs being tested have been neglected to the point of emaciation quite frequently.  What dog wouldn't guard food when it hasn't had any in so long?  Rediculous.  Not to mention that if the rescue takes the time to home the dog carefully - as most should - even dogs with guarding issues can find loving, lifelong homes that can work with, retrain or just manage the problem.

> I am due to speak to her tonight again having had several long discussions about it already. So reluctantly will advise against it. She has already said that should she not take him that she will ensure that he is humanely PTS.

That is good - at least that way, even if she can't help him in his life, she can help to make sure he has a humane death.

Can I just say to you,please tell your friend to do as much reasearch on the dogs background as she can before she agrees to take it on....and that means everything no matter how small.
Some friends and I recently took on a rehome dog the place we got him from knew nothing of his background except he was a little boistrous and needed a firm hand and that he had been starved and was very underweight.
I have experiance of the breed of dog we took on and I do know they can be stubborn and highly strung but also very intelligent and make loyal pets.
It was only when we got  him home the problems started. He had severe seperation anxiety and litterally used to wreck the place causing pounds and pounds worth of damage. He also didnt like High Viz jackets and would charge at anyone wearing one trying to bite them. Certain types of men he used to go for too,again trying to bite them.He also became very terratorial of where ever he was and if he didnt like the look of a person he wouldnt let them in.
We tried all ways to help this dog my friends managed to get his weight almost back to normal in the year they had him.But his behaviour was a struggle.
At Christmas,after trying everything we could think  of to sort out the problems the dog was having,  we rang the re homing place asking them to take him back as his behaviour was out of control..If not could they help us try to sort out the dogs problems as they were much more than me with my knowledge or my friends could deal with.
at this point I have to say the re homing people failed us (imo).All they said was you will have to keep him till we can find a more suitable home.we will get back to you....Guess what?they didnt get back to us.
Anyway by this time we had gotten so attached to the dog anyway we said we give it another go and got books out about behaviour,asked friends who have dogs etc.took him to training classes and invested in a muzzle.
He did seem to settle and to be fair to the dog.....with us he was the most gentle loving dog ive ever come across....he never ever showed us any agression in any form. He loved playing fetch and would drop the ball on your knee for you to throw for hours.
He was very intelligent and learned quickly to sit stay rollover etc......we finally thought we had turned a corner with him.

This is where the point of my story comes to the fore........
I cant go into details of what happened because its out of our hands now,but my firend had taken the dog to work with him as they still hadnt mastered leaving him at home yet.My friend owns his own Body shop business  had a special run made for the dog at one end. It was a metal enclosure with toys and a bed in, where the dog could run free but still see its master.When the bodyshop closed or there was no one other  than the lads there,the dog was allowed to run free in the garage and all seemed well.
One day the garage was closed apart from the little door the lads leave by.This was open to let in air while they tidied up but had a big steel  mesh gate over it.the lads let the dog off and he was just happily running about playing with his toys when a man opened the gate ,not realising the garage had shut,and came in to ask about having some work done on hyis car.

Unfortunately ,without any warning the dog shot across the garage and before the lads could stop him he attacked the man.His leg has been badly bitten and he has had to have hospital treatment.

Immeaditely we put the dog to sleep and I for one am devastated even though it was the right thing to do and the only thing in my opinion to do after the dog had bitten.
We rang the re homing centre to let them know what had happened ,even though we heard nothing from them since Christamas.
They said "yes youve done the right thing as we have since found out that the dog had this,that and the other problem and really maybe it wasnt a good idea to re home him with you in the first place.
by the way If you ever want another one we have loads of dogs in need of a loving home"
I was speechless I can tell you, why werent we told all this as soon as they knew .It wouldve saved the man being bitten and saved us a lot of heatache.

Please please please tell your friend to think very carefully about what she is taking on.Tell them to find out all they can about the dogs background and tell them from me if they do take on this dog,never ever drop their guard for a second as I would never want anyone to go through what we have just been through.
I'm not saying that with a lot of hard work the dog your friend is going to take on wont turn out to be a happy situation ,it could well be and I do hope so ,I just want to show the other ,not so nice, side of re homing a dog with problems so they can make an informed decision before they take this dog on.

Very sad story Philly256 :( Makes me wonder sometimes why we call ourselves the 'intelligent species' :(

My friends don't have children thankfully - funnily enough, she said to me the other night on the phone 'if we had kids I wouldn't even consider this dog' - but knowing her and her partner as I do, even if they did, I know that they wouldn't be irresponsible enough to do it.

As I said previously, my friend is devoted to lost causes and has been nearly all of her life.

Regardless of what I have said to her, the dog is now in her possession. He is now getting used to a 'home environment' - very slowly - being kept in one room and then after a couple of days being allowed to investigate the other rooms etc. This is because of his highly nervous temperament, she is taking one day at a time and not overloading him with new things all at once as he, in her opinion really wouldn't be able to cope. She isn't treating him like a baby - he is being treated like a new dog that needs time - He is already 'asking' to go out to toilet :) He is giving up food, albeit he has been starved - don't know how this will pan out long term - And he is going to his bed on command. IMO, she has achieved quite a lot in a few days but only time will tell.

She is of the opinion that if he starts to show really aggressive tendencies then she will deal with it as and when.

I am still very cautious and am keeping my fingers very tightly crossed for him and her that it MAY work out, more than that, nobody can say.

I am due to go over there in the next 3 months and am looking forward to meeting and observing him (if he is still there) and also helping wherever possible - I have had great success with clicker training with mine and am hoping that something can be learned from it regarding him.

Wish her luck because I have a feeling that she will need it. (fingers heavily crossed icon) :) :)

hairypooch..I have everything crossed for your friends and this poor dog...I really ,really hope for a happy ending for them and not have to go through what we did with our rescue dog...I am only just now  being able to speak about it without crying.
I will be interested to hear how they get along if you dont mind letting me know from time to time.
Good Luck
Philly xx

Well, despite what I think, I wish her all the luck in the world. I hope with love care and understanding this dog will turn out ok. :)

Wishing your friend the best of luck :)