I want to try my puppy on a chicken wing but am unsure whether I need to freeze first like you need to do with mince.  Any advice would be welcome.  I do hope eventually to feed the full BARF method but am nervous about the whole thing so this will be my first step.

No take it out of the packet and give it to your dog.
My puppies have them from 4 weeks of age (labs) so don't be nervous give it ago.

I personally freeze everything first.

i've just started BARF and its dead easy so far! jump in, you'll do fine!

I too prefer to freeze everything first!

Defrost and maybe first time chop up for your pup - my dogs love chicken wings!

I give chicken wings and have never frozen first, ours love them and have never had an upset tummy!:-D

its not because of sore tums that meat gets frozen, its a thingy that can cause neurological probs (having a brain fart and can;t remeber the word...)

I freeze all meat first but tend to give chicken wings straight out of the pack.But to be honest my fridge is usually is turned up so high eerything freezes in it anyway.I am forever clearing up exploded cans of fizzy pop.Good luck with BARF.Best thing I ever did for my dogs.

Thank you all for the advice.  I decided to freeze them first so he will have to wait til tomorrow to try it out.  Should I break it up for him - I see some people smash them first - but wont this increase the risk of him choking?  I'm sure it is just me worrying about nothing but what is the best method of stopping him choking should that happen? 

I understand why beef should be frozen before feeding raw but I don't understand why people feel they want to freeze chicken before eating it. 

Hi Isabel - I was told to kill a specific bacteria can't remember the name now - my bones come pre-frozen by the butcher anyway so I don't go out of my way to do it! Its already done for me :)

That is in beef, neospora, I think it is called and freezing kills it but the usual worry for chicken in salmonella and freezing does not kill that merely stops it growing.  So, obviously if you are not feeding the chicken straight away you might want to freeze it but storing in the fridge would be fine if you are feeding it in the next day or two.
A better way of reducing the amount of salmonella bacteria would be to wash the surface before feeding.

I did get 12 chicken wings and as we are only just starting out in this freezing would have been necessary as I only intend to try out every
other day to start with.  So I should rinse the chicken after defrosting?

Yes, I would, and give it a good rub.  Dogs can cope with a fair amount of bacteria but you might as well reduce the amount they are getting when you can.
It's just a shame he has had to wait a day for his first one :-)

I freeze mine but only because it takes my dogs longer to eat.  If I give one straight out of the pack my boxer just swallows it whole, whereas frozen he gnaws and chews at it.

is it safe to feed frozen chicken then i thought it had to be defrosted?

Ooooh actually I don't know - never thought about it (bad mummy!!).  Never had any problems though (furiously touching wood......)

I wouldn't bother. I thought the point of freezing meat/fish was to kill bacteria and parasites. I've never bothered rinsing anything - I'd have to get the hose out to deal with the carcasses, pig legs, etc :-P

I thought the thinking now was that rinsing meat was a bad idea because you end up splattering bacteria all over the place.

I'll reply to myself before Isabel gets a chance :-P

Just had a Google and it seems that freezing doesn't kill many types of bacteria at all. I will still freeze first though personally :-D Even if it's just to make me feel better. I automatically bung everything into the chest freezer (a lot of it comes frozen anyway).

I have just started the BARF diet and have 3 books on it.
Today i made my first veggy pulp for my dog, he loved it. I blended celery, carrot, tomato, kale, ginger powder and garlic powder.

It took no time at all and to be honest this is so much cheaper to do than buying top end complete diet and i feel i can control what he's eating and its really healthy too.

Fruit pulp tomorrow.. Not sure what he'll think of that mind.
Also got the calcium round to do.

Enjoying doing this for him as well.

Also got the calcium round to do.

Do you mean you're adding calcium? Do you mind me asking why?

What books have you got out of interest? i have a couple, wonder what others people reccomend. :-)

> Enjoying doing this for him as well.

me to but my boy threw up a few chicken bones yesterday, not terribly well chewed ones... now i'm worried incase ones stuck. he's eaten 2 meals and drank lots since so sure i'm being daft and worrying to much. am i? reassurance please!!

I've only been doing this really for the past week as in the bones and raw meat and the rest yesterday and today i started.
As for calcium, its the adding of cottage cheese, pro-biotic plain yoghurt.

The books i have are Ian Billinghurst  and one from Kymathy something. Ordered them on Friday from Amazon and then got them yesterday.

Astarte - Seeing as i've only just started i can't say either way, hoping someone who has more knowledge can help you, if this happens to me then yes i would probably worry to, just in my nature to. Shows that you care.

lol, i appreciate that sue, just a general cry for assurance!

I've still not given my pup the chicken wing but plan to tomorrow instead of his lunch.  I have found this under FAQ BARF for beginners on http://www.njboxers.com/more.htm#regur web site

My dog just regurgitated part of his chicken wing?  Is this related to chewing (or not chewing)?
It's not uncommon at all for dogs new to the diet to have trouble digesting the new bones.  Sometimes they might vomit them up (and then continue to eat what they've just regurgitated) and sometimes some of the bone might pass through in the stool.   This is purely related to NOT chewing properly or because the body is not  used to digesting raw foods.  Adding a digestive enzyme during the transitional phase would be most beneficial in cases like this.  Of course, if it really does worry you that much, you can always go for giving larger bones or by grinding in the beginning and then maybe work your dog up to eating bones. By the time he's used to digesting the ground bones, he should be able to handle the whole bones with no issues.

At least now if that happens to my pup I will know why. 

thats quite calming hillbilly, ta! aside from that we stress its grand so far

As for calcium, its the adding of cottage cheese, pro-biotic plain yoghurt.

Ah, I see. I don't fee danything for calcium, as they get enough fromt hebones, an excess in fact, hence white dog poo, as any excess is passed out. (sorry, TMI!)

I do feed pro-biotic youghurt, but for pro-biotics, not calcium. :-)

I have the Billingshurt books. Tom Lonsdale is good too. Searching @raw meaty bones' should bring up his site.
Good luck!

Astarte,

My vet would say that you are not worrying *enough* - dogs can and do end up with internal lacerations and tearing from raw chicken wings.

I have yet to know one personally that has had "internal lacerations and tearing from raw chicken wings."

BUT if anyone is unsure or concern but like the benefits from give the chicken wings. A meat mincer of say £100 will do the job well and grind them down for you. 

I think vets views get clouded really, as thye don't see many dogs fed raw/BARF, so the few they do see stand out, yet they see dogs fed kibble everyday with health probelms quite probably attributed to kibble feeding, but never associate the two.

There IS a risk with feeding raw bones, but there is a risk with feeding anything. It's abotu weighing up the pros and cons and deciding if the risk is a negligable one and worth it.

I have personally never known of a dog having any problem from eating raw bones.

I think the cases being referred to are generally where dogs have managed to get hold of COOKED bones.

Cairnmania's comment nearly scared me off - but my chicken wing is on the side coming to room temp and then he will have it for his lunch.  Christ I just hope he doesn't choke or try to swallow it whole!!.  But having said that he's such a sweetie I doubt he will unless the smell of raw meat gets him over excited - he is only 14 weeks afterall.

No Annie, I am not.  I am referring to RAW bones.  My own vet has had several cases requiring surgery because of raw bones.  That said, he is not a scare monger - he just tells his clients to be aware of the risk and if their dog experiences *any* symptoms consistent with intestinal problems to get them to him ASAP.  He also breeds dogs and he tells any potential owner who wants to feed raw the same. 

Here's the thing - everything a dog puts in its mouth carries degree of risk.   Have you ever broken a chicken wing, or a rib cage, when you are cleaning a chicken?  The ends of a broken bone are extremely sharp and it's easy to see how it could easily injure soft tissue.  

It's incorrect to suggest that a dog cannot injure itself with chicken wings or any other type of raw bone.   If you choose to feed raw bones it is a risk you take because you believe the benefits outweigh the risk of accidental injury. 

Blue,

Well, I have.  I have two friends with dogs that have needed surgery because of raw bones - and one who had a dog lacerate it's throat on a chicken wing.  It bled to death.

Raw feeding may be faddish right now but it's been practiced for many years; so the above is over the course of 20 years.

IMO if you want to feed raw bones, go ahead, just be aware that like anything in life it is not risk-free. 

As you point out though - a mincer is a good option.  

I tried my dog on chicken wings, he didnt have a clue what to do with them. I thought he woudl wolf them down but he was so gentle bless him, just nibbled it and got nowhere so left it on the kitchen floor :-)

I don't think it is any more faddish now that it was 15 years ago, I have fed a variety of raw food, bones, raw meat in general for must be 12 years since I had my last boxer. She had terrible problems keeping complete food down and one day whilst at the vets a lady recommended raw food, I went home, researched it and started then.

I have a meat grinder I use sometimes, I grind 6 packets of Chicken wings at and time and bag them for the freezer but my adults get wings 2 to 3 times a week. Honestly never had any problem at all. 

Like everything though you have to think of the risk and I would NEVER tell someone to go ahead and feed raw bones or dry kibble unless they were 100% comfortable to do it..

:-)

It's incorrect to suggest that a dog cannot injure itself with chicken wings or any other type of raw bone.

I wasn't suggesting that at all any more than people could negate cases where dogs have choked or suffered ill effects on kibble - there is a risk/benefit case to be had for giving any type of food.  I was only saying that cooked bones, especially poultry, should NEVER be given.

I would also stress that the bones being given raw for consumption should always have a good covering of meat on them, hence raw meaty bones. :)

Well the deed has been done and he loved it.  The first few seconds were a bit scarey as he was so excited I thought he might swallow it whole.  But then he ran under the picnic table and tucked in.  I think he may have swallowed the last bit whole as it only took him about 5 mins to finish the wing but overall a success.  Who knows I may even pluck up the courage to try them on my older dogs who are now sniffing out suspect areas in the garden.

cairnmania tios fine now, has quite happily eaten all his meals since then (except this morning so far but i'm trying him with kidney for the first time and he doesn't seem keen), he's drunk lots, is not showing any kind of pain or illness etc, i think he just didn;t chew them enough and brought them back.

i would say though that the way you posted that there would have scared the c*ap out of me when i'd first posted on it. given the "don't feed bones" mentality drummed into people all their lives its a scary step to take.

it just didn't come across terribly supportive :) 

anyway, tio's enjoying it, he's lost a bit of weight, tiny poos :) and appart from today has been really eager to get his meals rather than indifference to kibble

Astarte, I found my boy didn't like liver/kidney etc either and that seems to be quite common.  I think some people mince it up with the veg to disguise it :).

I think it is understandable that Cairnmania wants to put another viewpoint - she has her reasons for not supporting this type of feeding.  Each to their own :)

My viewpoint is only that whatever you choose to feed your dogs you need to be aware of the risks and benefits involved. 

see he loved the liver, and heart! fussy wee poo :) might be that i put to much garlic in his vege mush though...he's not mad keen on it.

i know and i totally appreciate that, its fair wnough, was just pointing out that the delivery was a bit alarmist :)

I feed raw Astarte but don't feed veg as a standard part of the diet. Mine will get left over veg from our meals but there rarely is any and do like a whole raw carrot to chew on recreationally. There is a risk with feeding any kind of diet, fairly recently there was a thread on here about salmonella in kibble and I have read other posts where people have had problems with raw feeding. It all comes down to what you feel comfortable feeding, what suits your dog and IMHO the most important thing of all is to do your research before you start.

totally agree. i have done my research though, just to reassure you, there are many many threads on here from me clarifying things i;ve read etc :) i think its just scary cause its new. he had a turkey drumstick this evening, apparently loved it :)

I wasn't aiming that at you Astarte or anyone else in particular:) but I often see posts on here and elsewhere from people who have started to feed a raw diet and are just feeding their dogs bones and a few bits of meat which won't give the right balance that is required for a healthy diet, and balance is even more essential with puppies. Adult dogs can regulate their calcium levels and excrete excess calcium but pups can't. A lot of people new to raw feeding extol the virtues of white poo that goes dong when it hits the ground but that just means that the balance isn't right and isn't something one should aspire to :)

i've been delighted with infrequent but easily passed firm mid brown little tiny poos :)

we are strange people to be so interested in this subject- has anyone noticed how often we all talk about poo :)

I've always fed my two raw although I now do not feed veg, but until they were fully grown I used to feed a 'gloop' mix with liver, sardines, veg, cottage, cheese, seeds garlic etc, otherwise they wouldn't eat the veg and freeze it in batches, they just love liver and fish!  I have to say that I am amazed that some dogs do not like liver.  But no two dogs are the same. :D 

The pup has now had his second chicken wing and this time chomped on it straight away.  I have even plucked up the courage to give my 7yr old dog one - he was so funny - carried it about first then stared at it for a bout ten minutes, then gradually started licking it and then finally chewed and he didn't choke.  Amazing - what a start to my raw food adventure.