I have a Border Terrier and used to have a lurcher until recently when we sadly had to get him put down. The were both males and got on well because we had brought the border in when he was a puppy. The house hasn't been the same with only one dog. On Friday night we got a patterdale terrier. The patterdale is 18 months and male. They are fine when they are out walking together. We took them to the beach yesterday for some bonding and they found a toy and played for a while and then the patterdale tried to take the toy off the border and it ended up in a huge fight. Luckily there was no serious damage. They were very achey last night and we thought maybe that would teach them a lesson because they were both limping but again this morning there was a fight and the border had a hold of the patterdales face and was shaking him. We have all fell in love with the patterdale and wouldn't want to rehome any of them. Is there any suggestions as to how we could stop these fights. We were going to get muzzels for them but we thought that that would just be prolonging the biting.We can also tell with their body language when they are about to fight and shout "No" but this doesn't seem to work. After the fights we don't speak to them or make any eye contact if we continue this will they realise that its bad and stop??

Hi stephanie,
You did say that your new lad the patterdale is 18 months but how old is your border terrier? I'm afraid that once they do start to fight- it is very hard to stop them from kicking off about the littlest thing. Being the same size and same sex is never a good idea as with your lurcher as he was taller-naturally became top dog without any need to assert aggressive dominance. Now it does sound as if these two will tolerate each other- but you will have be so on the ball with when the next fight will break out. Maybe getting the patterdale castrated might take a little of his attitude away but fights can and will still happen. To have a easier home with less fighting- give your border terrier all the  attention first- feeding him, putting on his lead everything then the patterdale will not think he is above your border terrier in your house.  Do not let them have any toys as will only cause jealously. Go back to basics by training them general obedience. Maybe clicker training separately at first? The more you assert total control and be the boss the more likely if they do squabble with a loud OUI! from you it will stop instantly. Remember the patterdale being only 18 months will be going through his 'kevin' stage and being both terriers once a fight starts they rarely back down. Good luck with your lads! :) 

Hi magica,
The border terrier is 6 years old now. Thanks very much for the advice we are going to try these things, we have considered getting the patterdale castrated if putting the border terrier first and the training doesn't work we will do that.
They haven't fought since this morning. They haven't really aknowledged each other since then.

Be careful which dog you promote. Humans cause a lot of problems by trying to decide which dog is top. Promoting the wrong dog because they are older, bigger or were there first are things humans would think were important. Dogs sort themselves out based on what matters to dogs. If you are unsure I'd try to get help from someone that knows dogs well. For example, if your patterdale is the more assertive and dominant character castrating him but not the border could make them more equal than they are and lead to more problems.

All the advice is good. If you want to think about castration you might try chemical castration first on whichever of the dogs you think is least dominant, it might help you make the right choice. You could check this option out with your vet.

Even if they find stuff when out, I would confiscate it immediately- it's your privilege to take possession of anything and everything that might cause disruption in your pack.

There is an outside chance that the last few fights may have established the peck between them. But young Patterdale will be looking for opportunities and may be a harder and more tenacious character than your Border.

Make sure you don't leave them alone if you go out :)

If you can find out why they are fighting - it is over resources, due to stress, or sorting out a bit of a hierarchy (which is, by the way, very often much more fluid than people think, as the dog who is top dog in the home may not be when on walks...) - that would be helpful.

Eg if it is over resources (including owner/space etc) you can work on this and avoid confrontational moments with management and training...:)

I can't comment about deciding which dog should be top dog as I only have one, which is a patterdale.  I got her at 18 months and she is a wonderful house dog, great with people but I have found that where other animals are concerned ie my rabbits if she want's to get to them she will and will ignore every command, you can really see her instinct take over and she is very determined.  She has to be physically moved from the situation.  I have heard from other dog walkers, although like I say I have no experience of this that you can't keep a patterdale with another dog.  My friend has a border terrier, and her dog seems to be of a more laid back character, so maybe you should treat the patterdale as top dog even though she is the youngest  Good luck.

So agree with what you mentioned about which dog is the naturally more assertive first- I had a tervuren bitch Kye about 3 not sure as a rescue- and my friend got a GSD bitch Mica, and with in a year the young Mica attacked my older girl all the time so was easier to ignore mine less and allow that be the way as Mica would be less weird with mine. Saying that though I did jump into the fights with these 2 to stop them, as mine would not fight back in the end and Mica would just keep savaging her. She was good as gold at my house only because I was alpha- but in her own was a nightmare and my dog could not move or walk about- very sad to see.  

The first thing you need to do is fully establish YOURSELF as pack leader. 

This needs to be consistent as some young dogs will challenge all the time for the top spot, spot a weakness and your back to square one. 

Once you are fully in control things should start to settle and both dogs will be more laid back.  They will still need to sort out a hierarchy between them but it should not be as frantic as at present.  With dogs it really does tend to be a lot of noise about nothing and the less you react to this the quicker it will end as once you are in charge the fights between them will become as much of a display to you as a battle between them. 

DO NOT thing castration or either dog will solve this - it won't.

I live with four dogs, two of each sex and apart from the odd fall out the boys get along fine.  The less I react (a quick "pack it in" normally is enough) the quicker they settle and realise there's no point in arguing as Mum is boss!

Vicky x

i've read this thread with interest as i have 2 st bernard bitches who hate each  other .  Oldest we've had since a pup , other one since 7 months old .  We found they were wary of each other from day one but over a few months this esculated to full out fights . Trying to seperate them was horrendus , we've never left them to sort it out as have been scared of consequences , so my house is now a gated system to keep them apart . They take it inturn to be in living room i would love them to be friends inth fights they have had seems to be lots snd lots of noise but only very odd tooth mark in lips . sometimes i think by keeping them seperate we have made things worse as no heirarchy was ever sorted out when i see other peoples dogs playing happily together i wonder where i went wrong but i panicked about the fighting as i didnt want any damage to either dog and they probally picked up on this .When out for a walk i have no problem with them with other dogs also at shows neither dog has ever shown nastiness with other dogs opinions appreiciated i do know i am not forceful enough and they take alot more notice of one of my sons over me . As they are a giant breed i need his strenghth to seperate and they do know that

I'm no expert by any means however do know that when bitches fall out it is often a lot more severe than when dogs fall out.

I would say by separating them this has escalated the problem, however do understand that it's very difficult to sit back and let them sort it out themselves.  When my boys have a spat I tend to separate them but only for a very short period i.e. a couple of minutes then I very matter of factly put them back together.  This is done quietly and with no verbal commands.

All I can say is that until they both respect you as leader they will challenge each other and you for status.  My boys constantly test me and I'm really still learning how to be a good leader that they respect.

Perhaps someone who has experienced similar problems with bitches can help more.

Vicky

The first thing you need to do is fully establish YOURSELF as pack leader.


Sorry, that's old fashioned thinking and won't work -dogs know people are not dogs and so are never part of their pack. :)

sorry to hear of your girl troubles as I mentioned before about my kye BSD & mica GSD the main problem was that mica wanted to be top as she was a scatty girl with everything including people she could not be let off lead and as my girl was good was off lead always which lead to her being jealous of my dog - I'll never forget the worst incident- I went into my friends house and my girl kye trotted off down the stairs to her flat when mica attacked her, I had my 3 year old son with me on the stairs and as it frightened him and he started to cry made me push my friend out the way [who was just standing there not knowing what the hell to do] and get her dog off mine. After that fight well attack as my dog stopped fighting back in the end I did not take my girl back to her house as it became dangerous with my son around.
These girls had known each other from when mica was 8 weeks old and she became a nightmare by the time she hit 4. She was an entire bitch and never trained properly, but I did notice her first walk when a pup and at only 10 weeks old was pulling on the lead and very confident for her first venture outside, also my friend never did see her mother when she collected the pup and apparently the breeder did not give two hoots when told of her fighting attitude ended up just having a go at my friend. It seems this breeder sells her dogs in America for guard dogs which is not a good thing to sell a puppy to first time dog owners! 
I have stopped 2 Staffie bitches fighting once and must say far easier thing to do than with the Shepard's- no wonder you keep your 2 separate as it would be dangerous to get involved with them! 

Marianne

In my opinion this is not old fashioned thinking.

My experiences of using this method DO WORK and are based on Amichien bonding a method developed and researched only a decade ago.

>In my opinion this is not old fashioned thinking.

>My experiences of using this method DO WORK and are based on Amichien bonding a method developed and researched only a decade ago.

Amichien Bonding ???? This is based on the studies done on artifical captive packs of Wolves & was debunked by studies on real wild packs of Wolves done by people like David Mech., not just a "behaviourist"with a degree in human psychology(or sim). The studies were debunked long before Dog Listeners/Whisperers existed

Dogs are not wolves, dogs know humans are not dogs, dogs do not consider humans part of their "hierarchy", neither do they have any desire to "dominant"humans-other dogs yes but humans no, no matter what the dominance theory believers like to think.

The likes of the dominance theory TV personalities have taken dog training back to the dark ages of force, pain & punishment(no matter how slight)

They like to quote the Alpha Roll as being as being what the Alpha animal does to a lower ranked animal to "put it in it's place" & to reinforce it's position as Alpha. This is not so, the lower ranked animal in a wolf pack will offer appeasement(by rolling onto it's back)to higher ranked animals in a real wild pack. In the wild packs all the animals are related(except the two alphas)& consist of the two Alphas & their offspring, there are few if any challenges for Alpha status as the offspring who are destined to become Alphas eventually leave to pack-find a mate & start their own pack.  Alphas use body posture & facial expressions to keep order. In a captive pack, the animals are rarely all related, they cannot leave the pack when mature, they do not hunt, this produces the atypical behaviour such as fighting for Alpha status between siblings, more than one litter being born & animal to animal aggression between pack members that just isn't seen in the wild-this is what "Amichien Bonding" "Dominance Theory" are based on.

I have three BC's my oldest male is the Alpha, the puppy offers appeasement to try to get away with inappropriate behaviour as does my bitch. I do not intervene & 99.99% of the time they live together harmoniously. I've never had to pin/Alpha Roll/show dominance by eating first, going through doors first, ignore etc etc etc I use positive reinforcement & have used this method since being taught it in the1960s.

The worst thing that can happen between domestic dogs is that two bitches start fighting, 9 times out of ten it is hormonal & unfortunately it is usually a permanent breakdown between the bitches & they can never be allowed to be together again. In dogs permanent breakdowns usually happen between dogs of nearly the same age/development, males can fall out once & never again. Unless you can see what is happening it is very unwise to give advice on retraining.

You saved me lots of time there MM. :)

I think I should keep a copy for everytime there is a dominance training thread ! ;-)

so i was right to seperate my girls on a permenant basis although a nuisence i love them both enough to put up with all problems that come with it and my family have got used to me saying is the gate shut as they only have to have any chance given and they will fight

I have given no advice on retraining. 

I basically said what you did in your final paragraph.  Boys forget, girls don't!!

I guess we all use whichever method we choose.  For me this method worked with no force, pain or punishment whatsoever.  The results were fast and without incident.  It certainly stopped the odd fallout between my boys.

I was merely stating an opinion after trying various training methods over many years.  This worked for me, for others it may not.  I am always open to other peoples opinions so I'm busy googling for your books!

Vicky

My Books ???? sorry I don't quote from books nor do I write them, just 50(this July)years of owning dogs that had to be trained & in that time I've been involved in retraining & training lots of rescue dogs & dogs that had been abused by previous trainers, various breeds & non breeds

You stated that Amichien Bonding(which involves eating before your dog, going through doors before dogs, ignoring your dog, "dominanting"your dog)is new, it isn't at all & the theories it is based on are flawed & give little insight into dog behaviour. There were lots of methods based on the same studies long before the originatoir put pen to paper or opened their mouth on our local radio station giving out flawed one mathod fits all "Amichien Bonding"

One bitch I trained had been beaten by a "dog breaker"it took me a year of training totally hands off to get her back to where she was before being sent away to be trained-this was the bitch that I learnt positive reinforcement with & training with food long long long before the Amichien Bonding Guru(who claims to have invented titbits as rewards in training)was around

No Marianne's books

I've never dominated or tried to break my dogs.  I can show my displeasure in many ways none of which involve physically touching them and of course I reward good behaviour.

Perhaps I've merged more than one technique without realising - lol it works anyway

One method I couldn't get along with was clicker training, as I understand (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) it's all down to timing at which I am rubbish.

I have never read any books etc.. on training just worked from experience, encouraging positive behaviour, ignoring bad and lots of love. 

The only reason I looked for alternatives and started reading  is when I introduced our new boy and was warned by everyone about having two entire males living together.  Whatever I've done must have worked as they rarely fall out and if they do it's over quickly and painlessly.

No Marianne's books

Lats dog book I wrote was years and years ago, so VERY out of date now and the publishers won't let me update. Thankfully I've learnt a lot since. :)