hi guys, as many of you will know i've taken on my mum and dads dog Tio cause my dad can't handle him anymore due to poor health.

anyway, i was aware he was dog aggressive but the last couple of days he's growled at people as well- once at a friend of my partners and at our downstairs neighbours.

he growled at our neighbour when i accidentally locked us out of the house yesterday so my own agitation can't have helped. he seemed to take against pete as he came up the stairs when Tio was with me on the landing. you see he's fine if he's introduced to people when theyve knocked on the door- we'd all ordered a curry and he came to the door with me, met the delivery guy who was giving him a big fuss, then pete came up stairs and Tio got a fright.

i'm absolutely convinced its fear based aggression but its given me a big fright which i know will not help in tackling it. does anyone have any advice on how to handle it? in the mean time i'm getting a muzzle.

I expect the recent change in circumstances had made him feel more insecure and intesified his agressive behavior?
I've no advice as I think a good behaviourist would be the best port of call, but in the mean time some confidence building may help? ie, extra training/agility some sort of mental challenge that he can feel good about completeing. At the very least it should help him look to you for direction more instead of 'reacting' to situations ?

> expect the recent change in circumstances had made him feel more insecure and intesified his agressive behavior?
>

i think so to. i'd like to see if my partner and i can do anything about it before seeing a behaviourist, though if anyone can suggest one in the dundee area that would be great.

To be honest, I would try to sort the behaviour out myself before seeking the help of a behaviurist, but allthough I am confidant in my ability to tackle any problems arising with my own dogs, I would not like to offer any advice on how you should approach Tio's problems for fear of giving wrong advice and making things worse for you :(

I do have a link to an article about managing fear aggression, it gives some exercises to do and a list of recomended further reading. I've posted it before, it does look very good :)

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/fear.htm

I'd go to a behaviourist in your position. If you don't get any first hand recommendations I know of someone in East Lothian. I haven't used them for behaviour counselling myself but have met them and know their background. Just PM me if you want their details.

Edited to add - you should go through your vet first. Get a full check up and make sure there are no physical reasons. Most behaviourists will want a vet's referral first.

thats helpful article thanks!

unfortunately lothian is no good, we don't drive, thanks though.

i will get him cheked but i don't think its physical, its defo a fear response he's showing. unfortunatley he's not been as well socialised as he should have been given dads health and as he has a nervious temprement anyway its built up i think.

I'd also go to a behaviourist. Managing aggression that involves people needs careful handling. An expert needs to observe and correctly identify what's going on and then advise. Don't try to tackle it on your own, because if you get it wrong it could very quickly get worse.

However, I would limit and supervise your dog's space in the house, don't let him have a free rein. Stairs and passage ways and doors are buggers ('scuse me) because they will intensify most types of aggression whether fear, elements of dominance or guarding. By reducing his access you should make him feel more secure for now and if there is a bit of dominance mixed in, it will help with that too. 

How long have you had him? Has he had time to settle and sort himself out? I wouldn't flood him with too much right now. As was said he could be very uncertain of things right now, and that makes him edgy when you are edgy. Muzzle is, of course, excellent. But some take longer than others to settle down before you see the true character of the dog. Sometimes 2 weeks, sometimes 2 months, some highly strung dogs, longer. How tricky and well done for attemting to sort him out.

But Vets, behaviourist, new surroundings, is all a lot to take in in one go. If you have not had him long use the muzzle and let him settle down and build his confidence.

he restricts himself in the house, he's terrified of the kitchen, backroom and bathroom. he's only willing to enter the bedroom and living room.

the timing is why i'm thinking of not going to a behaviourist just yet. he knows us both well but has only lived with us a week so barely any time. i'm just so disappointed as it started off really well with him liking visitors etc. its just going to take time and dedication.

on the plus side he's fine on his own, has not been destructive and has only messed the house 1's when i was asleep (wasn't well) so didn't take him out when he needed (my bad). he's also a total sweetheart with us.

Hi
well he does sound anxious. Golden Lady has a point. If he can be muzzled you might just observe him for a few weeks and keep everything very relaxed and low key and try to get a good routine going. I have found DAP (dog appeasing pheremone spray) from the vet to be very useful in helping with fear and anxiety. I'd do lots of basic training with him, all the things you'd normally do to instill confidence. Finding games are a good way of expending energy without leaving the house or garden and many dogs love it.

But if he hasn't settled after a few weeks and there is no improvement I would seek help. It depends how much experience you have had with dogs and whether you have dealt with aggression before.

Where does he sleep, in your bedroom?

yes, he has a bed next to our bed, though he occasionally goes and sleeps in his crate which is in the living room. he likes to go in there when unsettled.

i don't have any experience with dogs this nervy and anxious, i've had the breed my whole life and he's very unusual, they are normally do confident, so i'm a total novice at tackling it.

will give the confidence building a go, thanks.

how big to the DAP collars come? doubt i'd get one to fit him but i'd like it for outside the house as well as in.

Sorry, might I ask what breed he is?

I do think that if you realise he is unusual for the breed, that is telling you something. I'm a great believer in going by gut instinct. If your guts tell you you are out of your depth then do get help.
But he hasn't done anything awful yet, so let's hope that a little time and patience will do the trick. It's good he goes to his crate, because you can use that to build his confidence with new people in the house and so on.

With the DAP I was actually thinking of the spray (you just do 3 squirts into the room about 15 minutes prior to them using it) or a plug in diffuser, which menas it can be on for ages. You probably can get collars, but why not use treats while you are out and getting him to do the "watch me command" while you walk, rewarding when he looks at you? Build him up slowly by going short distances. You can also get him to do simple obedience commands like sits or heel and so on, again calm praise and rewards when he gets it right. The aim of all this is to get him to focus on something other than his uncomfortable feelings of anxiety.

I once owned a nightmare of a dog and he was so bad I couldn't get a muzzle on him. I found that getting him to carry a ball in his mouth while walking helped him relax. It distracted him in so much as he had to concentrate a bit on carrying it and I think he chomped on it while walking, so it was a bit of a pacifier too. It was a heavily textured, tough, rubber ball.

I don't want to sound contradictory but don't love bomb the dog because that could add to his anxiety. Just be clear about what you wnat him to do and calmly reward the good behaviour, don't baby him and ignore panic attacks. Just try to anticipate and avoid going too fast so he doesn't get to high stages of arousal.

Sorry if this sounds like a granny and egg scenario, but if you have a tricky dog it can, I know, be very wearing and isolating.

he's a bullmastiff (its him in my avatar) and hes 2 and a half so has just really hit maturity (physically at least)

i don;t feel out of my depth, i feel worried and slightly pensive but also like i need to meet this challenge with him, its new for me yes buti'm willing and eager to take it on. even yesterday when i was really upset about i i knew i'd feel better about dealing with it today. he has certain very bully like tendancies but he;s so nervous all the time which is so not bully behaviour.

with the DAP i was thinking spray, possibly collar and treats lol (belt and braces). we'll only be doing short distances anyway with walks, he's not had good length walks for a while now due to dads health and he has a cruciate problem anyway so gently building them up is the plan.

definately not granny sucking eggs. its really helpful and even if it is stuff i know its nice to get the support. he's a lovely boy in himself, he's not 'nasty', in fact he's adorable, just scared and massive which in turn scares people.

I have a friend with 2 bullmastiffs and one of them does get very anxious about things even though, as far as I am aware, she had a wonderful well socialised puppyhood :)

I think the article is very good, it's along the lines of what a good behaviourist would suggest IMO... you may feel an assessment by someone else might help to start you off though perhaps.

Also, do consider a thorough vet check, including blood tests. Nervousness and other behaviour problems can be due to a variety of medical conditions, and it's kind  of good to "shut the door" if you like or tick the boxes on them not being part of the equation if at all possible.

Astarte,

I have a gut feeling that you'll be fine. You know the breed, you know how to train them and you know to take things slowly. And I am right aren't I in thinking BM's are highly trainable?

One thing occurs, if he's got a cruciate problem could sudden movments or any old movement be causing him pain and so a source of anxiety?

Good luck!

thats really encouraging, thank you.

> And I am right aren't I in thinking BM's are highly trainable?
>

er...yes and no lol. they are very trainable when they want to be :) they are also delightfully stubborn, though for training Tio is one of the least naughty, he does like to make you happy, so theres hope!

he had surgery on one leg but the vet who did it examined the other leg and says it may become an issue in future but he's not really showing any problems at the mo. i might be worth getting him looked at just in case though.

i'd like to get him introduced to his new vet soon anyway and he's due his titres being done so proably do it in a oner

Just to wish you good luck :)

Have you thought about his diet? Is he on Glucosomine and a low protein diet? I find Nutro 'revs' some dogs, not all, up a bit...and Bakers is full of additives (hope I am allowed to say all this) so an additive free diet may help and a relaxed, confident you. He really really needs you to be the calm assertive leader, and as someone rightly says, don't bomb him with love (as I expect you are dying to!! Who wouldn't LOL!!) but be consistent.

The first week a dog is getting to know his surroundings, the geography, and he is so scared of this step isn't he? bless him, not wanting to explore other rooms, but feels secure in his crate which is good. But does he have free access to any area? Soon, if you don't entice him, he will venture in to follow you as his confidence grows but I wouldn't ask or pressure him to go in there, let him do it all on his own.

The second week they get to know the people they are living with and work out where they fit. But it sounds like your boy is going to take so much longer than that first week. Poor boy.

HTH and really well done for trying with him. He will be worth it. Maybe ask to have the last appointment of the day, or the first for the Vets. less scary then.    

 

what about using T-Touch to chill him out a bit?  You could get a book from the library to help calm him down slightly. 

When I was having concerns about my dogs agression towards some other dogs and her fear of GSD's I used a pet psychic/listener from Perth.  I was introduced to her one day and she told me about some of the things she does.  she did a reading for me and asked my dog questions I wanted answered and the answers were very revealing.  It is not everyone's cup of tea but PM me if you want her details.

he restricts himself in the house, he's terrified of the kitchen, backroom and bathroom. he's only willing to enter the bedroom and living room.

Reading through this thread Astarte, forget trying to train him and help with fear aggression yourself, get in a qualified behaviourist.

If I am reading this correctly this is an adult male, who has come to you via your parents who have had Bullmastiffs for years, which you grew up with? And has been passed on due to your fathers ill health.

IMO, This dog can not have been well socialised as a pup, my girl can go anywhere, in any house and is never afraid, nor any other family member dogs, nor any of my adult pups who may come and visit or stay with me, it is not normal behaviour at all, he is afraid of the kitchen, bathroom and backroom also dog aggressive also on occassion people aggressive. (This was not a good first time dog for you Astarte, you have every problem under the sun here, he would not be my choice for a first go at dog ownership, sorry, just my opinion here.)

All in all, you are not a behaviourist or trained in animal behaviour, this is not a little pup, this is an adult with many major problems, get a proffessional in if you are keeping him to watch and advise and take things step by step, you can't fix this on your own. :-)

i've just switched him frm kibble to BARF, he's calmed down in himself a bit, but he's also restricted to his crate for the most part as he's managed to hurt his leg... going well so far huh? so everythings on hold for a few days.

i do want to give him a proper chance to settle before tackling this head on, its only a week yesterday since he moved in. thank you for the encouragement though.

Oh bless him. Very early days. You'll get there...slowly slowly catchy monkee x (or builds confidence in this case!! LOL)

actually he was well socialised as a pup but this could not be maintained due to the change in circumstance. just to clarify, my father has a neck injury incurred during a storm where he was thrown around on his ship, he was a marine engineer, which has gotten dramatically worse, including loss of sensation in his arms, an inability to grip and various other issues over the last few years, unfortunately correlating to Tio's growth. because of this my dad cannot work any more and thanks to an incompetent neurologist who does not take notes and gave completely false info to my dads insurers who now will not pay his insurance. given this my mum is now effectively working two jobs to keep the house running so has no time to socialise the dogs as basically she collapses when she gets in at night. as such it no longer became possible to take tio out.

its was not a perfect senario but not one that could really be helped and i have taken him as soon as humanly possible. i am aware that his behaviour is not normal but life rather overtook my family.

i'm also aware he was not a good first dog to have as my own but since the choices were leave him with mum and dad who can't manage him now, pass the problem on to a stranger or have him pts i stood up. i love my dogs and wanted to do the right thing by him. in some ways i;d have much prefered a puppy to start over with but frankly if i chose that route at tio's expense i'd have had to get used to not sleeping at night.

a behaviourist is an option but given that its been a week i'm not sure i deserve to be written off quite yet. i have lived with this breed since the day i first came home from the hospital.

i'm sorry if this reply is snippy but i am rather upset at your attitude. i posted looking for support, not critisism of things done in the past which i know, as do my parents, were not right but unfortunately were impossible to avoid.

and of course i'm keeping him, i'm not the type of person to abandon something i've taken responsibility for because its a bit hard.

thats the plan, currently working out which food he particularly enjoys to aid in training, think its going to be manky hotdogs, gruyer cheese and liver cake. he's such a sweet natured boy i really think we can get through to him on his issues if we work hard.

God! I thought you were replying to me for the minute!! Obviously not, but to the poster before me... Well, good for you for stepping up, and it is amazing what true brave stories come through this forum and how much we can learn by presuming too much.

Do feel for you all, and many a good dog would have been abandoned under thopse dreadful circumstances. x

no no! and it wasn;t ment to be that snappy really anyway.

its just mum and dad got him then hit the stage that everyone is scared of, dad suddenly went from a really fit, big strong guy who did weights to someone in chronic pain (then got diagnosed with diabetes! going real well for him recently!). everyone on the forum was speaking a while ago about perhaps downsizing breed when they got older, well this happened unexpectedly for dad. they still have the impecably behaved girls as he can still handle them but we all thought it was best for t to come to us (being the chunky lump that is me and my big burly boyfriend) (btw, they will be downsizing eventually when the girls go, i believe bostons are the plan). they didn;t do anything wrong, its just what happened and given tios nervy nature anyway its taken more of a tole.

anyway, we can but persevere.

i'm sorry if this reply is snippy but i am rather upset at your attitude. i posted looking for support, not critisism of things done in the past which i know, as do my parents, were not right but unfortunately were impossible to avoid

Astarte the past makes the dog!!!

You can be as snippy as you like :-D ...........as I will also state my thoughts on the best help for this dog, I have a problem in putting what amounts to a loaded gun in the hands of someone who does not know how to use it, yes, you may know the breed, but you do not know how to deal with his problems.  Tio has many issues, God bless you for taking him on, he is after all a family dog and I completley understand that, but due to circumstances that could not be helped he is seriously lacking in many things, and it does not matter if you wait 1, 2, 3 weeks or 3 months for  him to settle into your home, the sooner you start with a behaviourist the better, you are only stalling the matter, perhaps at the expense of another person or someone elses dog, we all make mistakes it takes a second to loose concentration or have an accident and something terrible to happen.  Not to mention his fear of change and uncertainty may make him react in an unforeseen way.

You are now in charge of Tio and that brings great responsibility in handling him and more importantly protecting others around you, that starts with a behaviourist asap.

I'm not saying at all that you should give up on him due to his problems far from it, but many people take on problems with good intentions without the knowledge to back it up, you do have a pretty large loaded gun here and the sooner you get him help the better, I just want to re-iterate don't wait too long. :-)

i'm aware of my responsibilities to Tio as well as other persons and other dogs. your assumption that i have no idea of how to handle the issue are a bit insulting though. i do not claim to be in any way an expert in fear aggression and its alleviation, in freely admit to being a complete novice but i am far froom new to dogs and i understand the theories on this areas treatment, as reiterated by others above. since i'm new to it i did ask for advise from those who've tackled similar issues before as i believed that to be the right thing to do.

i appreciate your comments on it, and i can understand your take but i think that calling in a behaviourist without even trying ourselves is a white flag of surrender, it suggests that tio's issues are unconquerable for us which i don;t believe yet is true, though should we make no progress i am more than willing to take on a behaviourist.

i hope i alleviate your concern for other people and reassure you that i'm not indifferent to the risks by saying that he is taken out on a double lead, one attached to his collar, one to his halti and that i am getting a muzzle for him. given that he's not getting out at the moment it should arrive by the time he is allowed. he is not let off lead except in the back garden where the smallest wall is approx 8 feet, the largest nearer 15.

> Astarte the past makes the dog!!!

i also disagree with you about this. the past helps make the dog but it can certainly be overcome, else many rescue dogs would never find homes. while most or many dogs that have had behavioural issues still retain some of these traits they can at least be tobered, lol you can indeed teach an old dog new tricks.

> the past helps make the dog but it can certainly be overcome, else many rescue dogs would never find homes. while most or many dogs that have had behavioural issues still retain some of these traits they can at least be tobered, lol you can indeed teach an old dog new tricks.

it's a good job too :)
When we got our rescue dog at 4 yrs old he was very cowed to sudden hand movements & things moveing near him quickly :( A lot of patience & reasurrance and he learnt that a hand was a nice thing and fast moveing objects were not meant to be making contact with his head (he used to duck and whimper/scream if for eg. a cloth was thrown in a bucket he was next to :( ). There's no way of knowing for sure, weather this behaviour was due to being abused or simply lack of socialisation, whichever way, it was a fear response and it was turned around :)

>though should we make no progress i am more than willing to take on a behaviourist.

This seems a perfectly sensable approach. Being that you are not new to the breed you are well aware of the potential dangers if Tio's issues aren't sorted out. I wish you the best of luck with him and hope you keep us all informed of his progress :)

thanks very much. i'm glad most folk think i'm doing the right thing by him (though i appreciate others right to disagree and comments have been taken on board). if he was anything but the sweetest creature alive at home (if a bit clumsy lol) then i'd be more concerned but i am certain that the aggression is fear based so can be effectively worked on.

in perfect honesty i got a bit of a fright the other day seeing the behaviour as though i knew it was there its different to know and witness, and needed to voice my concerns. i'm prepared for it mentally now and as such am prepared, i feel, to try and address it properly.

will keep you all posted

btw everyone also started a blog on the progress with the barf feeding since so many folk seemed interested in the threads where i was asking for advice. i figured it would be good for the other newbies to it or those considering it to see how its going.

We have a rescue terrier who never went outside until he was 5 months old and then it was to spend a month in rescue kennels. He came to us at 6 months old and has been very hard work :) Our home circumstances, due to ill health and then the loss of a beloved family member, have been very difficult for a while now and has had a knock on effect with him and training has been a very slow process.

Today my daughter took him to his first one to one clicker class and the trainer's observations of his behaviour and the reasons behind it were a real eye opener. She believes him to be a very intelligent dog ( we thought he was quite a slow learner), she believes he is actually quite nervous and stressed ( we thought he was just very noisy and a typical terrier) and she thought he was not as difficult as we thought he was ( comes of comparing him to our other dog who is very quick to learn). Most of his problems stem from a lack of socialisation at an early age and a lack of understanding of just why he behaves as he does. To make progress with him the reasons behind his problems has to be understood because this then determines the best approach to take with his training. Once we had listened to her explanations so many things fell into place and it then seemed obvious as to the how's and why's and gave us the correct direction to move on to. Our dog isn't aggressive (just exasperating at times :)  ) we just needed help to be shown the right direction to take. I am certainly not the world's best or most experienced trainer but have had dogs previously and trained our other dog through to his gold KC good citizen award so am not a complete novice either.

I would definitely recommend going to a qualified behaviourist, even though your dog has only been with you for such a short time. They will be able to tell you if they agree with your assessment of your dog's behaviour and help you to find a way forward. The sooner his problems are dealt with in the right manner the quicker they can be sorted out. It might seem a bit drastic to see one at this stage but it should make things easier in the long run especially when they have missed out on that vital socialisation period as both your dog and mine did. It also takes a lot of pressure off you both as well :)

Astarte i think you will do just fine give him time to settle in and dont do what i did and avouid other dogs.

since my girl attacked the jr i have been going into town and walking her round the park where she sees  at least 10 other dogs on her walk and she now realizes that not all dogs want to run up to her and get in her face she is becoming a much calmer girl and has meet some very freindly dogs and even played with some.

i think fear aggression can be due to them thinking that every dog will come strait in at them and they then feel they need to make first bit.

i had pussyfooted around for to long avoiding the problem and just needed for the sake of my dog to deal with it head on i am now more confident with her and dont put the tension down the lead every time i see a dog coming.
in some ways your problem is similar to mine was but i had no problems at home she settled with us very well but she came into a house with other dogs where as you boy has always lived with other dogs and now has been moved to a house/flat on his own which must be strange for him and will take time to feel secure but it will come i have every confidence in your ability to deal with this and with the help and advise of some very knowledgeable people on here that have dealt with some of these problems. in time a behaviorist is a good idea and some training class.

i also did some clicker training to help with the bonding with my girl and get her trust.

good luck and be positive you can do it.

Hows thing going with Tio?
Is he settling in OK? Have you made any progress with his aggression?
This isn't meant to sound like an interrogation!! - just wondering how it's all going :)

actually much better! he has now quite happily entered every room in the house, including the dred kitchen! yay! he's been fine with strangers since then, bit nervous but no growls, just shy,he met a lady in the garden the other day with my partner and he woofed for a bit but she was a dog person to :) so she and liam studiously ignored him till he calmed down. he's been good on walks, behaving on lead and ok with strangers. bit nervious at a couple unloading a van of furniture but we calmly walked by and he was fine. we also met woman who wanted to meet him. we explained that he was a bit nervious and she very calmly said hi to him and he ended up wagging like mad getting a fuss (she had ridgebacks so another dog person!). we've been very lucky with him meeting doggy people i think, its been a great start.

ta for asking! its nice to have the support. i ment to post actually but never got the chance really (internet is only at work now)

wow, he's come a long way in such a short space of time :)
Maybe the poor lad was just feeling very unsettled in his new home afterall.

> we explained that he was a bit nervious and she very calmly said hi to him and he ended up wagging like mad getting a fuss

bless him :) Hopefully, if you carry on meeting people like this, it wont take long for Tio to realise that strangers aren't scarey monsters :)

I hope things carry on so well and give Tio a big hug for being so brave meeting lots of new people :)

thanks! yeah, he had a couple of days of peeing all over the house. from the patterns he'd done it in it looked like marking to me. anyway washed with vinegar and he's not done it since but seems far more comfortable and chilled.

not met any dogs yet but he did spot a westy from afar and while he looked interested he didn't play up.

early days but going ok so cautiously hopeful

I am really glad hes settling in well, sounds like your doing a grand job :)

thanks, still needs work but its ok. my OH says that they ran into one of the downstairs neighbours (that he got scared of and growled at before) today, he barked a bit then calmed down and let her pat him no prob (liam says he didnt look to keen though, no waggy tails and going after cuddles like with the other adies he met- just patiently standing there. but these neighbours are pretty weird so if calmly waiting it out is the best they get thats reasonable i think)