I was watching the mal judging at an open show and watched this teenage looking girl really being ghastly to her dog. what on earth is the matter with people....if they cant show their dogs calmly then they shouldnt go in the ring...I felt like going in and slapping her. the dog either was having a bad day or wasnt too well ring trained and didnt want to stand...either way it was not the dogs fault!...so she grabbed its tail and yanked it up several times...at one point it turned sharpish as if to bite her (oh how i wish!) then when moving it paced and so again temper was lost and she got really angry. she wasnt placed in class and she stomped out as if she was hard done by!!!!! what on earth were the parents thinking of letting this oik handle their dog?? We all have days when dogs dont do as we wish in the ring but they dont ask to be there....so you just have to deal with it calmly.....I know they are a tough breed and firm handling was needed but this was a very different situation and had I been the judge I would have asked her to leave the ring . I dread to think how she behaves with her dogs at home!!:( ok rant over.

sounds like a bit of an evil brat.

if it helps restore your faith in kids i saw a girl, must have been about 8 or 9, handling a rottie bitch at crufts, lovely handling. seemed totally effortless (though i'm certain it wasn't) but she'd clearly been working with the dog for a while. she was really gentle and the dog was completely forcused on her handler. lovely to watch.

I agree, the judge should have asked her leave the ring.  Sometimes all that is needed is for someone to say to the person.

I thought this was supposed to be a "fun hobby"!  It certainly is for me!

They are not all like that watched a young lad handling a Bloodhound at our recent show, not easy but done in a lovely calm and accepting way, he won Best handler and it was well deserved.

Having said the above some of the Junior Handlers do seem to get a bit above themselves particularly when they stop being juniors and concentrate on the breed ring and hate to say it is usually the girls who offend.

Sam please don't judge Zoe as you were too far away to know exactly what my daughter was doing in the ring.I was next to her and I didn't even see!She is not an evil brat just a teenager who is trying too get involved in a fun hobby which can be more than said for many teenagers.She was trying to get Shadow who is a puppy to stand as the judge requested ,with his tail up.Just as she held his tail in position he sat down as will many dogs if you touch their back end.Like many young dogs if they don't want to do something then they won't.Also like many teenagers and believe me having a two I know all about it,they too can have a strop.(I am sure we were the same if we cast our minds back.)Zoe goes to ring craft each week and a lovely gentleman who you know well who shows red setters has taken her under his wing for since the new year and she has learnt a lot from him.In fact he was watching at the time and didn't say anything when I spoke to him later.In fact he was upset because his lovely puppy wasn't placed.So as you see even adults get alittle tense at times.My husband saw her show Shadow and she was duly told off by him for getting moody and all Kevin and Perry.You have met Zoe before when you took her picture at an open show and I don't believe you had any issues then.Instead of being judgemental and negative sometimes suggestions and constructive critisism is more objective.I have shown my daughter this post and she may feel that she won't bother with showing any more which, before people again judge her and say 'good' I feel is a shame as more youngsters are needed to continue this great activity.She has been doing well and has had a few group placings with the same puppy.So if you see her in future make a few helpful suggestions to a youngster and encourage all the good things instead of slagging her off and hoping our dog will bite her.(A stupid suggestion.)Jude

?????????? who what????

Sorry Sam what with the who and what ???????Just expressing my side of the issue as you were.

I don't know about this incident of course, but I've seen quite a bit of harsh handling from adults too, even in my own Cavalier breed. If I was ever a judge and saw people being really harsh I think I would say something. But sometimes you do need to be strict, so it's a hard call to make. I don't know if Sam is talking about Cornishmals, presumably just a coincidence as they wouldn't have said 'eh what'?

I don't think it was a coincidence as I know Sam was at the show though I don't know her and she doesn't know me.Zoe is young and nieve but never ever cruel to her animals.Yes i do realise that at times you need to be firm - I tend to close my eyes and pray pleeeese be good and look acutley embarrassed if my dogs play up.And they have at times.Though all were brilliant yesterday,even my grumpy adolescent bitch.At Crufts our eldest dog was so bored , semed to say if you want me to run after waiting 45 minutes in this ring then you do it by yourself.Hasten to add that instead of being firm or harsh my O.H sort of legged it with his dog.He was last in a huge class,and standing by the exit.Maybe impolite to the judge which he would apologise to,but one of those things that if you saw it you would laugh.Th point I was making that it is easy to make asumptions and pass comments but sometimes you see only what you think you see and speaking to my O.H and daughter she didn't try to pull the dog up by its tail (the puppy is over 45kg so would be difficult)But simply trying to hold its tail in a presenting position and each time she did this Shadow sat.Yes it may have looked like tail pulling from outside the ring but it honestly wasn't.At the end of the day it was just a young teenager feeling upset because she felt she and her dog didn't do their best. Teenagers emotions and hormones are all over the place and I felt that Sams comments were unjustified and negative.Ie hope the dog bites her,and I could give her a good slap.

i would like to say that i was calm and i know it was not my dogs fault that he would not stand  or run as it was hot and we had to wait for some time to start showing so by that time the dogs aswel as me were tired n just wanted to get it over and done with. so i would apreciateif you would slag me of and tell people what you thought you saw and make me out to be some kind of evil brat . I care n love my dog and i would not try to hurt or stress him.i enjoy showing my dogs as it is a fun hobby but i am still new at showing so i amit there is still things i need to learn so instead of slaging me of give me some advice so i can get better

Hi Cornishmals. (Keeping my head down low!!)
Unfortunately I know only too well how teenagers can be a bit....stroppy..maybe she did not mean it to appear the way it did but to be truthful if Sam thought she saw harsh behaviour then how many others around the ring did too?
Let her read these replies and maybe see how her behaviour could be misconstrued! then she may learn something from them. I have also been in the position of having a dog who misbehaved and threw away it's chances in the ring but being older and more controlled just grinned and hoped for better things next time. We learn by our experiences and with luck and age she will go on to be a great handler one day.
Good luck to her and you and try to help her to put this down to experience. As you say we need new blood and youngsters in our rings.
Alieen

Cornishmals jr

Don't be too disheartened by some peoples point of view.  Just remember that we all have to learn and start at the beginning sometime.  If I were in your shoes, I would reread this thread in a few days time and reflect on what happened (I wasnt there so cant comment).  If you're going to survive the often pettiness (I am not having a go at anyone on here, just making a general observation about dog showing) that surrounds our hobby, then try to put this down to experience and think what perhaps you could do better next time, if your boy misbehaves, and learn not to take to heart what some people say.  I always try and reflect on what I did well and what I could do to do better in the future whether it be at work or dog showing. 

Keep your chin up and dont loose interest - we all need people like yourselves to take over when we're old and decrepit!!

Jill

Hello cornishmals jn, I did not realize you were a member or I would have addressed my remarks to you personally.
Hope you enjoy your showing and have a long and fruitful future. However our behaviour in the ring must appear to be squeaky clean, I know how frustrating it can be to  blow your chances with a dog that is messing you about in the ring but even if you are sure you are behaving impeccable you must make sure it is very obvious to others watching. Remember all the time, that you, as well as your dog are on show and your ring presence must give the right impression. Only you know what you were doing but for someone to misread your behaviour may mean others do the same and it will do your good name nothing but harm if things are read wrong. You must live with your conscience and if your know it is clean then no problem, but try to ensure no one in the future will read the wrong interpretation into the things you do.
Good luck for your future showing.
Aileen

Oh dear now my daughter has joined the forum.Is there nowhere I can hide?LOL.Thanks for your constructive remarks.She will be putting them to good use.I have just spent 30 minutes outside with her and Shadow,roping in otherhalf for advise.Zoe was fine, patient with Shadow and all was fine.She did panic because she thought Shadow went lame and had something wrong with his back legs.So we called it a day.Only for Shadow to go on the grass and have a massive pooh!!!She is taking this seriously (may be a little too seriously)and has joined the young Kennel Club.So she will keep checking the forum for advise (not be on or seen the forum before today).Please remember she is only ** and I am a protective mummy for my children and dogs.Thanks everyone.Jude

You might possibly want to remove her age from all the posts given that this is a publicly read forum.

Kate

Cornishmals jr well done on not taking the criticism too badly and wanting to learn.  Hope that all goes well in the future for you and your pup, who knows in years to come you could become a professional handler!

hmm would like to state the following
I have named no one in my post. nor the show, the date or even the county in which I saw the harsh handling.
If CM wants to think that its her child then thats her shout.
As for the comment "You have met Zoe before when you took her picture at an open show and I don't believe you had any issues then" I photograph upwards of 400 dogs a week and oddly enough dont remember all of them unless they are regular clients.However if I saw anyone doing that when they had come to me for a photo session I would be having strong words with them about it....so if she (whoever she is) did behave like that with me, Im pretty sure I would remember it!
I have no idea who you are and at which show you are referring, but please be assured I have no intention of naming anyone....in fact I havent a clue who this child I witnessed was anyway so couldnt name her even if i wanted to!!!
I was simply making a post based on something recently witnessed. if your child also behaves like this then I dont see it as something to be posting about personally, but then thats just me. !!!

>I have named no one in my post. nor the show, the date or even the county in which I saw the harsh handling

Given that you said it was an Open show ..given that there are a fair few people here that know who you are ..and given that only a few people have kids that handle Mals........putting all of that together it is entirely possible for someone to come up with an assumption..rightly or wrongly

Ditto to that Mel.

And picking up on Merlot's well-worded post re "squeaky clean" behaviour in the ring.....how many other show goers have witnessed dogs being manhandled/smacked/slapped/punished outside of the ring?

Well done to Cornishmals Jr for having the guts to show a potentially difficult and dominant breed.

I have learnt alot over the last few years through internet forums regarding people and dogs and it hasn't always been an easy or pleasant ride. 

On reviewing posts on a forum I used to participate in, I realise how easy it is to be misinterpreted or drawn into critical debate which serves no positive outcome.  I wonder if the OP realises how negative and critical her posts always seem to read?

What is the saying about assumption? 

CornishMals Jnr,

Im soo sorry your introduction to the CD forum has not been such a pleasant one!
Im afraid sweetpea that this is the way the cookie crumbles in life! Dont take others views too much to heart, but also by the same token..remember that (wether we like them or not) Others perceptions are valid, and if one person thought that its possible others did too..its also possible others didnt!!... so chin up, take it all on board with good grace...and you'll come out of it the better person ;)

Best of luck for what Im sure will be a glittering..plume tail flying ;)...winning show future :)
Learn to enjoy and enjoy to learn
Go the Mals!!! xx

Didn't think,just wanted to point out that she was young and inexperienced will try to edit post if not too late.Thanks for pointing it out.
Just tried to edit post,but unable to due to the time lapsed.Maybe admin can do this for me.Thank you.

mel, i dont see why anyone would make such an assumption as i was at open show yesterday and saw 3 kids handling mals.....i photographed two of them....but i dont see the relevance in your post!!!

really Debs 2004???? and which ones would that be exactly then??

Can I thank every one who made constructive remarks to my daugher.She feels much more possitive.I have offered to show Shadow at his next show but she wants to continue and will carry on with ring craft.Most judges have been excellent with zoe and have in the past given good advice and feedback.Hopefully she will learn and continue and hopefully be better than me because I think i am still pants at times.I can't do much about teenage tantrums but believe me i have seen much worse.
Sam
Not being critical but it was clear in your thread who you were referring to.
I saw you at your photography Stand yesterday.
My teenage daughter was handling Mals.
One teen was running her dog for her mum and got BPIB.(Drat lol)
One teen was placed third
My friends young son won junior handling (well done to him)
So not much room for misinterpretation
The point I was trying to make was that if  my daughter was constantely a bad handler then even if you photographed 400 people in that time span you would have recalled bad behaviour in the ring.As I remember from that show adults had a skuffle that involved the committee and K.C .This was in front of my daughter.So adults can be much worse.
Maybe we can draw a line under  this discussion.
Jude

thankz to everyone who is giving good advice

no im sorry Jude, im not going to be drawn into something that i clearly did not say. I dont know what your problem is over this post but no where did i mention yesterday, or any other day for that matter. I have no idea why you imagine im refering to your child....although clearly you feel your child  has behaved less than well on some ocassion for you to be getting this upset.
So what if you saw me yesterday??? whats that got to do with anything? if you think im talking about you/your family that really is your problem but I suggest you stop making allegations about whom I am referring before you know the facts.

cornishmals jnr..

When I was your age, I was just starting out showing my bichons.. and clearly remember my dog not co-operating at all and eating the dirt floor - Soooo I burst into tears and stropped out of the ring!

Keep at it gal, it'll get easier the more you practice Good luck and welcome to CD xxxxx

Sam I am really not getting drawn into a long twisted argument with you.Life basically is too short and i have more important things to dwell on.You did mention in an above post that you were at an open show yesterday.There are not too many open shows in the South West that i do not attend,especially ones that have youngsters showing Mals,whether yesterday or any other day and belive me I know many owners/handlers.Irrespective of whether you were reffering to my daughter or anyone elses daughter your post was too judgemental and statements ' i hope that her dog bites her' and I could slap her is not acceptable statements.We do have freedom of speech and everyone should be able to make comments.But in such an aggressive way directed to a child is completely unacceptable in my opinion.Whether my child or anyone elses child.I did say my daughter was clearly dissapointed that she and her dog didn't preform well,but she is young and this is a natural reaction and how most children learn and move on.Last week she was probabaly disappointed about something completely different to dog showing and I dare say as a teen next week it ill be something different again.maybe we can put this matter to sleep as I asked in my previous post.

In fairness to Sam she did not mention which day or which show, she did not say if she was there as a photographer or an exhibitor, she did not give a time scale. She did say at some time, somewhere, she saw this teenager handle a dog that from the ringside looked un-necessarily harsh.

If someone recognised the description given they will realise the impression given by their behaviour and modify their style. So no harm done really, one young lady made aware of how things can look whether of not she was the person spoken off, she is determined to continue showing and listening to the advice of others.

So think about it, whoever Sam was talking about her words could have helped a young handler to improve her performance whether she was the culprit or it was a comment made about a different day, venue, show and handler altogether.

Just thought it wasn't too anomous,especially as she said she was at a show on Saturday.Didn't help naming the breed of dog as their still aren't that many shown at open shows especially by teenagers.So didn't leave much to the imagination.IMO.But there we are its all done and dusted now.

I don't think Sam ever mentioned the actual day.

A friend has a great name for precocious young handlers - 'junior stranglers'!  ;-)

Sam did not mention a day Cornishmals, and I don't think she said it was an open show, may be her description rang a bell but nothing she said could possible have told anyone anything about the occasion, venue or show apart from the breed and the fact that it was a teenager.

Looked at Sams post she did say it was an open show, so an open show, a Mal and a teenage girl were the only clues given by someone who travels the country.

I think we have established whom said what and when, so please can we now use this thread to offer ideas and suggestions that may be of some help to younger handlers in the future please. I am sure you all have little tricks up your sleeves for handling young dogs :)

As for getting unwilling dogs to stand calmly, many will settle by tickling the flank and under the belly. Often means you have to work harder going from belly tickle to organising the tail and back again but may be kinder to a heavier dog than pulling the tail up. I know terrier people especially use this tactic but they are much stronger built and a lighter body weight to be lifting.

Why is it always deemed young handlers are "harsh" on their dogs.  I see just as many adults doing it, and yes I may have lost my wit with a couple of dogs before, I did it this year in a handling class and I told my dad he has to show this particular dog in the breed as she wasn't co-operating and I was having a bad day so he took her in the breed while I took the other, all was fine then!  But it's not just the young handlers.

We all also have off days and the bitch I couldn't show one day was/is my best handling setter who I have shown at most shows since and have done well with her at Crufts handling!

> Why is it always deemed young handlers are "harsh" on their dogs.

Don't think they do Ice Queen, most JH are better handlers than the adults in the ring. Suppose if a youngster does lose their cool it is not tempered by the same sort of restrictions that an adult may have, like looking a fool in front of the rest of the breed owners or being hauled before the KC disciplinary committee.

I often watch the junior handling classes and most are excellent but I, like you I would have thought, have seen some sly kicks or pinches and attempts at downright cheating. In the breed ring this seems to happen less. I do feel that at times in the breed ring the junior is working with a disadvantage simple because they are young, again at other times the junior is given more consideration by the judge which in turn puts the adults at a disadvantage, all in all I think it works out even and for every poor example of bad handling by a junior there will be adults who are equally as bad.

There is a difference in my mind between poor handling and heavy handed treatment of the exhibit. Anyone can be a poor handler, lacking experience or just not able to get it right, that is excusable but there is no excuse for being heavy handed nor un-sportsmanlike and I think offenders can be of any age.

Cornishmals jr

I've endured much worse when I started showing.  I was showing a Bernese Mountain Dog (and a big fella he was as well) at SKC,  who hated showing.  Well he stood well enough for the judge to go over him and we moved OK until we were coming back towards the judge.  Well Rocky decided that he had had enough and was off, pulled me off my feet, under the stewards table and out of the ring.  I was about your age and can still remember the embarrassment to this day. 

Now who can beat that one for embarrassing moments in the ring!!

Jill

> Well Rocky decided that he had had enough and was off, pulled me off my feet, under the stewards table and out of the ring. 

ROFLMAO    You haven't got it on film have you :-D :-D

Nothing much to add, but having watched a junior handling competition at an Open show recently i have to say, the behaviour of the parents upset me more than that of the children.  On the whole i found the handlers to be very professional and good with their dogs.  We all get frustrated with our dogs (and ourselves!!!) if we have a bad show, but i suppose as you get older you learn to just accept that a dog is not a machine and cant be expected to perform perfectly every time.  I was lucky enough to learn this lesson before going into dog showing, with my horses!  Some painful lessons were learned there... If a horse doesnt wanna jump, you're not gonna be able to do much about it!!!lol

But yeah, some of the parents treatment of the children concerned me.  Most were supportive even if the kids were unplaced, but i saw, and heard a LOT of nasty comments!!  Not only slagging off other kids handling and dogs, but also if their child did something wrong, made a tiny mistake, they were taken aside outside the ring and shouted at.... 

It should be fun for the kids, and at least Cornishmals daughter seems to be enjoying it so her parents can definately be commended for that!!

Thankfully not!  Video cameras were not very popular around the late 80's!!

I usually have no idea how Zoe is in the ring as I nearly always have my eyes closed.Lol.My friend is the same and can barely watch her son handle their dog.O.H usually gives a bit of feed back but we have a friend who also shows and goes to our ring craft that watches her when she shows and gives really good advise and has been doing handling  for years.I used to get really nervous and that used to effect my bitch when I showed her but am getting better.I just really concentrate on the dog and see little else.And hope my skirt doesn't fall down as it almost has on occasion.Opps.Zoe and her boy have also beaten me on occasion and had group placings.Her ambition is to show Shadow at Crufts so wants to really learn.

mum i ave bet u nearly all the time