spoke to a friend last night who told me this sad new that had happened to her friend.  The friend had a 14 yr old colllie & a 2 yr old S.B.T. they had always gotten on. They were looking after the daughters Akita. the lady was in the kitchen when she here an awful noise. when she went out the back the staffie & Akita were attacking the old dog. The lady got a broom handle and tried to get the to attackers off. The staffie ran away but the Akita ran dragging the old dog around the garden.  Result. 1 old dog dead, so sad to come to and end like this. The Staffie and Akita p.t.s 

i am so sorry to here this new but the owners did the right thing about put the others 2 dogs to sleep,,

next time it could have been a child or an adult.

i take my hat off to the owners for being respondable in their action.

That poor, poor dog.

But I'm afraid I do not agree that it could be a child next time - and that is a statement I absolutely hate.  Children and dogs are entirely different things.

I have mixed feelings about having the dogs PTS though - but without knowing how the 2 dogs were with dogs generally it's hard to say whether it was right or not.

What an awful thing to happen and having been involved with my boys fighting I know how distressing it is.

Louise

i been though the same situation as the above post.
you just cannot take that risk again or live in a situation of closing door or make shore that the dog to not get togther to result in the action again.
plus i have know two breed of dog one irsh setter and the other a great dane that went off killed and injured 21 sheep in lambing ,a friend of ours,
20 years ago the irsh was pts straight away the great dane let off beacuse he was a puppy,the owner went to court and was fine,
all was well untill they were out on a pinic with the great dane he bolted to the other side of the feild put down a calf,
the owners could trust that dog again he was pts.

all different situation need to look at the time.

How very sad!  Poor Collie, it is that old pack thing, it takes nothing for a dog to revert.

My feeble example was with my guinea-pigs, my girl was brilliant with them, licked them never would have hurt them, (but still never trust 100% that would be silly) but once my mum's dogs were here as they saw them as prey, my girl did too, would act completely differently and quite happily kill them. (Given the chance)

It is the most common thing when one dog attacks, others will join in, some just barking others taking part.  The SBT was still young, and taking lead from a larger aggressor, instead of protecting it's house mate it joined in the attack.

So very sad for all concerned. :-(

It really doesnt matter if next it could be child or adult OR dog, It could be yours ow mine that are attacked. It was right to put them to sleep.  it would have been irrisponsible to keep them. anyway I could never love a dog if I had saw what it did to the old dog. It would always be the first to get the blame if anything similar happend again even if it wasnt thier fault.

I actually feel sorry for the Staffie!  It had lived with the Collie for a some time, it could of actually been scared about the attack and wasn't actually "attacking" the Collie as such but trying to get it to react against the Akita.  I think we've all seen it where a dog has injured itself and the other dogs around it have got upset by it and they're not attacking it but do a nudging sort of "biting" motion.  I agree that the Akita should be put down because by the sounds of it it was definitely there for the kill with it not resisting.

What an awful way for an old dog to go though.

I feel for the old dog and the owner. My first dog will always have a special place in my heart and i bet the old collie was the same. The newish staffy would have been loved but not had that bond, with the owner. Its a dog pack thing but i would have been disgusted at the dogs that killed it. Not sure if it would have pts tho, but thats just me, i would have been too sad having lost one dog. But i know that my dogs wouldnt do that ever.

Hi tadog,

this is an incredibly sad and traumatic event for the owner, I'm so sorry.

One thing I would say is that the older dog may have had a seizure or heart attack which caused the other two dogs to attack it.  In my breed, best practice advice for those with multi dog households where there is an epileptic dog for eg, is that the dog which suffers from the condition never be left loose and unattended with the other(s).  To "put out of it's misery" an ailing pack member is not unheard of either in wild or domestic animals and does not necessarily equate to one or either of the attackers being "bad" :(

I have a good friend who keeps multiple males, all wonderfully natured, non-aggressive in every way yet out of 9, 5 attacked another when it flopped on the ground, moving and jerking erratically - again this was a very elderly dog which probably had seizured or suffered a stroke or heart attack (my friend was at the other end of her own field at the time).   She was able to break up the attack but the elderly dog needed to be PTS later that day :(   None of the other dogs had previously or thereafter behaved similarly and my friend, an experienced stock person in several species as well as multiple breeds, believed the behaviour to be normal - although obviously extremely distressing.   The only ones which didn't join in were two youngsters and another very elderly male.

Sadly this could happen in any household where there is an ailing/infirm dog and despite the enormity of the horrors of this incident it is very possible IMO that neither the Staffie nor the Akita presented any danger to any other dog and certainly not a human :(

I myself once owned an epileptic bitch and was frequently warned by others in my breed and several vets that she should never be left unsupervised with her life long male companion, precisely for the reasons described.  However she did fit a few times on walks and he was wonderful as he stood guard over her until she was sufficiently able to walk home again.  I did often see other dogs behave towards her in a way which I found threatening but my male ensured they couldn't get close to her.

Teri

We didn't have this problem with our epileptic Staffy when she fitted, but I do remember a few years ago one of the GSDs got her foot caught in a child gate and all the rest piled in trying to attack her!  Luckily I was there and could get them all off.  It is v. frightening when this happens, but is what the pack will do.

that is just awful!!!  I feel for the owner, and the poor old dog.  Bless them.

What a shockingly sad story. Must say personally that would of not had the 2 dogs p.t.s because of this happening, rather extreme. Obviously if i owned the young staff it would of been easy to of re-homed him and as for the daughters pet she should of decided what happened to that one.
I feel sometimes that us humans think that dogs should have the same moral code as us, your friend thought on those same lines- a life for a life- my dog has now killed so it should die because it is a murderer.
I actually fell out with my own Dad as my dog killed a dog. We can not humanise our pets because they are animals and if I dropped down dead in my house alone I know my animals would eat me, that's what animals do. Survival of the fittest. I eventually explained my reasons to my Dad for keeping my 'killer dog' and he understood. Just because a dog attacks another animal it does not automatically make it a danger to children & adults either.
I would also like to add that after seeking advise for my dogs aggression the expert who I saw about this incident has been dealing with aggressive dogs for 30 years and she told me never to get an Akita. I'm sure that mentioning that will upset Akita owners, but I think with society now, where you can get any cute looking pup with not knowing or reading up on what breed you have living in your home- I think they are definitely a specialist breed for experienced homes only.  

> i am so sorry to here this new but the owners did the right thing about put the others 2 dogs to sleep,,
>
> next time it could have been a child or an adult.
>
>

Dog to dog aggression does not have anything to do with the chances of dogs turning on people, it is totally different.

but dogs do turn on humans at times???

i had a dog that died of a heart attack and one had a big seizure which she did die from,but at the time of both situation none of the other dogs attack them,

the only time they all rush in at one time was when teyha run into a tree and bady damage her hip the crying out of her may all the others start packing in around her.

I know I once had an dog with epilepsy (petit mal) and these only happend at night time, so he slept upstais with me as I didnt want it to  happen  when he was alone with the other dogs. So sad I cant stop thinking re old dog

i agree with brainless, dog on dog aggression can not be compared to human aggression, one of my girls is an absolute cow with any other female dog, just pure dominance, her temperament with people is faultless. She just wants to be the leader of the pack when it comes to my girls. Also when there is a dog fight other dogs will usually just join in, instinct just takes over.

i would just like to add that it states in the original post that the person heard the noise from the kitchen, therefore if no-one actually see what caused this incident then you will never really know why these dogs did this and personally i would not have pts either of the dogs, but clearly a very tragic and upsetting thing to of happened. :(

It is a horrible, horrible story but do not agree at all about putting the two other dogs to sleep.  The owner should have taken more care to keep the younger dogs away from the old one.  It is well known that dogs can pick up on the fact a dog is old or unwell.  My dogs kept picking on one of our Rotties, at te time is was confusing and didn't understand why...it came to light a while later she ended up dying from cancer.  It didn't cross my mind to destroy the other dogs...no they didn't kill her but what if I was unable to stop them or wasn't there???

Sad story but wrong ending in my book.

This is a very sad episode.  It may well be an animal instinct to be dominant over ill or infirm dogs, but to kill them? 

Magica you said "We can not humanise our pets because they are animals and if I dropped down dead in my house alone I know my animals would eat me, that's what animals do. Survival of the fittest."

If that's the case, what would happen if a child, for instance, fainted while playing with their dog (s) in the garden?  A dog attack wouldn't be acceptable would it?  Or if you collapsed, instead of dropping dead, in your home?  Would your dogs take advantage of your weakened state and have a good feed? 

I really think (although not being any sort of animal behaviourist at all, so not qualified) that dogs that kill other dogs, or livestock, should be pts, because no risk should be taken in case they do kill a child or even elderly person.

>It may well be an animal instinct to be dominant over ill or infirm dogs, but to kill them? 

There is a lot of evidence out there to support that, I'm afraid. In a pack situation overt weakness is often a death sentence, which is why our pet dogs will hide pain for as long as possible.

i would like to add that i have a beautiful dog that has at her old home killed a sheep, she was taught to hunt so how is that her fault, we took her on to get her out of that enviroment and therefore she will never encounter another sheep in her lifetime, putting her to sleep would have been disgusting in my opinion as the situation can easily be controlled and has been.
She is also the gentlest dog i have out of 14! superb with other dogs and children, hunting and killing prey is what she was taught to do, how is that her fault and why should she have been killed herself for something that should and could be controlled by her owners.

most incidents can be avoided with common sense from the human!!!

If 2 dogs killed my old girl that I have here, I'd have no hesitation in putting them to sleep.   Dogs have been domesticated for 100's of years now and have no reason to act in pack mentality especially when it is instilled into the owner that they should be 'head of the pack' to stop dominance issues.  I could never trust these 2 dogs again if they were to remain alive & rehoming only sidesteps the issue, not addresses it.

>it is instilled into the owner that they should be 'head of the pack' to stop dominance issues.

But the 'head of the pack' wasn't there ...

I would assume the lady that owned the SBT & the BC was head?   And she was in the vicinity.

I agree with ChristineW, I too would have had both dogs PTS if they had attacked my older dog, no way would I trust the dogs with anything again, and would feel sick everytime I would see the dogs.

I find this story shocking and upsetting, was the older dog actually ill before the attack? 
So tragic indeed.

>I would assume the lady that owned the SBT & the BC was head?

In the house, from what I understand. The dogs were outside, and she didn't see what happened. So in effect she was absent at the time.

Some information: dogs react badly to epileptic fits in others. Elderly dogs are prone to vestibular syndrome which has very similar symptoms. The reaction, though tragic, isn't uncommon.

Its awful what happend and feel for the old dog and the owner.
The imediate reaction is to put the dogs to sleep. So that has been done.
What the alternatives???

I know if my two had killed Gemma my old girl I would have wanted them out of my sight straight away.
So they would have ended up in a rescue centre, where they would have been euthanased due to being a liability, or spent the rst of their days in a rescue kennel, as who wants a dog that has killed another dog???? So the poor things will live out their lives in kennels, on their own as they would not be allowed in with another dog. Not a life I would want any dog to live.
So if you think about all of that, the best thing was done wth the two dogs.
I do hope the old dog is at rainbow bridge.
Lea

>Dogs have been domesticated for 100's of years now

Make that 1,000s, and yet they still do doggy things like sniff each other's bottoms and wee to mark their presence!

>and have no reason to act in pack mentality

In that case why are owners told that they must be 'the pack leader'?

>especially when it is instilled into the owner that they should be 'head of the pack'

Eh? You can't have it both ways!

Does it actually say anywhere the old dog was epileptic?  Or is this hypothesing?  Maybe it was quite a plucky old dog, I take out a 16 year old and she's wonderful.  If 2 dogs attacked her, their nether regions would be black & blue for a long time and I wouldn't care if it was PC or not.

> There is a lot of evidence out there to support that, I'm afraid. In a pack situation overt weakness is often a death sentence, which is why our pet dogs will hide pain for as long as possible.

completely agree.

Such a sad story all round, 3 dogs dead :( An awfull end to the old dogs life, but equally sad the other 2 ended up dead :(

We all agree that this is a horrible incident but it is wrong to automatically assume that because a dog kills another 4 legged animal it does not make it into a attacker of people. The original post said that the Akita was her daughters dog- we don't know this animals background or how it behaved in its own home, let alone going into a multi dog household ? I would instantly realise if a dog came into my house what that dogs body language was saying to the others- you can easily tell if the dog is passive, intimidated or being arsey with the others and its up to us carers especially if its someone else's to be aware of any problems. I would not blame the young staff at all for this attack it was obviously started by the Akita, because in a pack situation the weaker always backs up the more dominant. If this Akita had been such a savage animal that had gone wild- the lady trying when attacking the Akita to get it off her collie [which we all would of done in that situation] when it was attacking her dog could of easily switched its attack and gone for the lady which it didn't. 
Dogs that kill sheep could be managed by never letting them have free of lead time- of course if they continually escaped from your home and seek sheep out then yes it would be death for that animal. An old farmer friend of mine had a chow x lab that was brought up with sheep and continually ran away attacked them so in the end he asked the police to shot the dog which they did.
Me mentioning the idea of dropping down dead and my animals eating me would be if they were hungry and trapped. Something triggered the Akita to attack the old collie- I am not sticking up for that animal- it was obviously not socialised properly to begin with, to of done it in the first place. 
I do agree that a dog that mauls a person should be destroyed. 

I feel extremely sorry for the collie and the woman concerned, but I can't help feel it is a shame we do not expect our dogs to behave like dogs,a nd villify them when they do.

Why are people so suprised that their dog woudl kill their pet rabbit/guinea pig/a sheep given the opportunity? It is normal dog behaviour to me, until they are taught otherwise, but some may never learn any different as their prey drive is too high.

A dog that attacks another dog is no more a risk to humans than a dog that has never attacked another dog is. We are not dogs and dogs know it!!!

I have three dogs here. If the younger two attacked the older one (admittedly my favourite as she has been around the longest) and kille dher, I would be mortified beyond all belief, the thought is unthinkable. No doubt my initial gut reaction would be one to have the others rehomed or put to sleep. But once the dust had settled, I know I wouldn't do that.

I do wonder if have the other two dogs PTS was a gut reaction, and one of revenge. After all, why not just keep them away from other dogs in future?

At last somebody who's on the same wave length with me !
The collie in the garden could of been guarding a bone or a toy and snapped at the Akita just for standing too close to him ? - so the Akita then had a go back.
A lot of people wanted me to put my dog down when it had a fight with it ending in the death of the other.
Glad to say I didn't listen to anyone's 'advise', with common sense and the looking at the  situation properly- made me realise my dog was not a murderer.  

i agree totally with jeangenie and magica, dogs still have many instincts that they carry out everyday, so why should acting like a pack be any different.

the most important point that everyone is forgetting is that no-one saw what started the whole incident so how can you punish an animal when you dont know what happened, very sad and maybe the old dog shouldnt have been left unattended with 2 young and powerful dogs it doesnt live with!

OMG it is enough to put you off having more than one dog...

I wonder if those believing these dogs to be generally "dangerous" would agree the same fate appropriate had the "attacking" dogs been two similarly sized, younger, healthier ESS for example?  I think this situation may be being judged differently by some on the basis of the breeds involved rather than on the simple fact that these type of incidents while fortunately rare are nevertheless not unheard of, regardless of breed or the dogs' normal disposition.

It is, or at least certainly can be, an instinctive response to a dying/distressed animal.  Who can be sure that is not simply what happened here, however upsetting and distasteful the deed and its outcome?

Teri

good point teri, if a papillion and a pomeranian had killed a yorkie would the pom and pap be put down?  would there be the concern about them attacking people too?

I can't say what was best for the other 2 animals, but I feel so sorry for the owner and her daughter - regardless of whether it was 'right', they have lost all 3 of their dogs in a single day in horrendous circumstances, and I can't begin to imagine how I would feel in that situation. :-(

> I wonder if those believing these dogs to be generally "dangerous" would agree the same fate appropriate had the "attacking" dogs been two similarly sized, younger, healthier ESS for example? 

More so because that sort of temperament is alien to any gundog breed, let alone an English Springer.  What use is an ESS on a shoot with a less than predictable temperament?

thats so awful the poor old dog and yes admire the owner for way they handled the situation,isnt easy putting dogs to sleep.but they could attack a child next time.sad chain of events.

Very true about that it most certainly was due to what breed they were. A few years ago now with the Queens dogs- 1 of her corgi's and a corgi x ganged up and attacked ended up killing one of her mother's corgi's - she didn't put her dogs down because of this I may add.

Hi Christine,

> More so because that sort of temperament is alien to any gundog breed

The incident I gave as an example further up the thread happened with a small(ish) gundog breed.

THE COLLIE WAS NOT ILL BEFORE THE ATTACK

tadog, you said

>the lady was in the kitchen when she here an awful noise

in which case, how does anyone know?

Just found this on the website about the Akita breed -

www.asataiyoakitas.com/akitatips.html

Interesting reading to be found HERE

A nice US based article.

Well I have an oldie who's far from being totally fit but my other 2 have never made any attempt to attack/kill/maim her so maybe there's something wrong with my dogs? 

Nobody has said that it always happens, Christine! Just that it's not unheard of, and shouldn't be considered a 'freakish' sort of thing if it does happen. Unpleasant but not unnatural.

THE COLLIE WAS NOT ILL BEFORE THE ATTACK

Although it is true that it is not unheard of that dogs may despatch of an older dog, (though luckily I have never witnessed anything like that in all my years around dogs of all ages, shapes and sizes) it is very likely that this happened for another reason, breed does come into it whether others wish to agree or not and Akita's and Staffs are not always dog tolerant breeds, I'm not saying that the other two deserved to be pts over this, but I would expect for those witnessing the attack the dogs were looked at in a different way, no longer the loving family pets but witnessed as snarling, aggressive dogs killing another, that image may well have been too difficult to ever remove from their minds, some people could live with that image some couldn't, I don't know how I would feel about my dog seeing it savage another to death. It takes away that safe feeling.

I would expect this is the main reason why the dogs were pts, not due to worry of any future attacks on other dogs, but due to the image of what they had done.

>THE COLLIE WAS NOT ILL BEFORE THE ATTACK

Nobody was watching though, were they? The poor collie was elderly, and elderly dogs are prone to vestibular syndrome - often referred to as a 'stroke'. It happens very suddenly and completely out of the blue, and looks very much like a fit as the dog falls over and struggles to get back on its feet again. Attacks in these circumstances have been witnessed and documented before, so it's possible (not certain, but possible) this is what happened.