what do you think to this....i recently watched a well reknown all rounder judging....he turned his back on most exhibits half way thru their movement to get on with the next dog, he was short and abrupt with all exhibitors, apart from checking the mouth he barely touched any exhibit, certainly only checked testes on 3 out of the 20 or so I saw him go over, never ran a hand over any other than his princiople winners so obviously hed sussed them as they entered the ring. Now i know we can  sometimes all tell from the 1st few mins who is poss going to win a class, but surely everyone deserves the same courtesy??? I was really shocked by this judges attitude and standards. i have no doubt the pulled out the right dogs as the overall winners, it was just the way it was done! What do you think?

I think I know who you mean and if so have been under this judge before and they were like that. Did they also look outside the ring instead of the watching the dogs go round? It's so rude we pay £20 plus for an entry fee and a polite attitude wouldn't go amiss. I have only ever experienced something like this twice so it does not happen much thankfully.

I think it bad form too Sam, watched my own breed being judged recently, by a well known all rounder, and although she examined each dog in exactly the same way and was polite and pleasant not one testes was touched and we are not a breed where it is always obvious. Is it a new fashion this aversion or lack of interest in the dogs entirety.

Same thing happened to me years ago, the judge turned to talk to their friend and the steward when most of the dogs were moving. I knew I was on a hiding to nothing, so when I returned to the judge at he end of moving my dog. I smiled sweetly and quite clearly said that as the judge had been interupted whilst I was moving my dog, would he like me to move again. Needless to say he watched every dog after that. (Oh I did not get placed!!)
As to checking if a dog is entire, I have heard more than one judge say whats the point nowadays.
If the judging is so obviously bad the it is up to the exhibitors to complain to the Show Secretary/K.C
Nothing will change if we moan but don't do anything.

I showed under a judge that did that once (an up an coming one), and I will never show under them again.

There is another top allrounder and group judge who has judged our breed without CC's on more than one occasion, and he judged each and every dog exactly the same, from obvious good one to the obvious elderly one out for a day out.  Same length of time and pattern of movement,a nd most of all extremely clear an courteous to the exhibitors and a friendly word and pat to each dog.

I have been in the group under this latter judge and he was very clear an careful to tell me what I was to do, and I was able to explain my sight was poor and if I was needed to be very clear about it.  No lordly waving at anyone but a direct approach and clear indication for short lists and placings.

>Nothing will change if we moan but don't do anything.

Too right! If we don't like it, we're the ones who must change it, not leave it to 'them'. After all, we are 'them' to everyone else.

>There is another top allrounder and group judge ... extremely clear an courteous to the exhibitors and a friendly word and pat to each dog.

Frank Kane, I bet.

He's another, but in this case it is Ellis Hulme.  Have seen Frank Kane help an exhibitor stack their dog and give clear instructions on how best to move it as they were really green.  These kind of people are a pleasure to show under.  Terry Thorne too was always very polite and put a newcomer at ease.

JG, you took the words out of my mouth ;-)

There are a few who will Look as though they are giving you a good going over, and there are those who couldn't give a d$%*. I know who I will go under again, and those I won't.

YES BERTBEAGLE.....THAT AND MAKING CALLS ON THE MOBILE!!!

My pet hate is the judge grovelling to the 2nd place winner when he/she has given you 1st. This has happened to me twice this month.
When my bitch won her class and when writing up he is saying to the other owner how much he LOVES his bitch but shame no coat/ wouldn't move etc,etc. That time I couldn't bear it any longer and said " sure you don't want to swap you don't seem too sure?" Judge had a red face and I felt a little bit better. This week standing in the line up, judge came along taking numbers of his placements and he looked up at the chap standing behind me " stunning dog S -pity" .......what does that mean???
Keep it for your write up I say. A judge without the courage of their convictions shouldn't do it.

> Frank Kane, I bet.

Well that's one judge who always get my entry & there's several now who won't.

I have had that happen to me in Irish Setter (quite a few years ago).  I moved and when i turned to come back he wasn't even looking but speaking to the steward.  I stopped at the end of the ring and waited for him to turn back.  I started to come back and he did the same thing again so again i waited.  This time when he turned back I walked out of the ring (shaking i might add but i was so angry).  The steward came after me and said the judge wanted to know why i had walked out of the ring and did i know that i could be struck off by the KC for bad sportmanship. 

I said that although the judge might not think much of my dog she meant the world to me and no-one was going to treat her like that and perhaps the judge should learn some manners.  If he wanted to report me fine but i could also report him too as it worked both ways.

Its the only time i have ever behaved like that.  I don't mind not getting placed but i like to think i am in with a chance and get something for my money.

Needless to say i never entered under him again with any of my dogs.

Oh gosh, I have not seen a judge on there mobile in the ring yet!

On the Frank Kane topic he is great for ring manner and patience, I watch him a couple of years ago he was judging at Windsor and I watching a friend from ringcraft who was new to showing and he was so good with her and her dog. He's judging my breed this and if I can make it, he will certainly get my entry. I have actually been under some really nice judges the Crufts 2007 judge for my breed was so lovely, he had a little chat to everyone and went over every dog throughly it was my first Crufts and I throughly enjoyed the experience.

Frank Kane was a lovely judge when i entered under him at a limit show. I was sat on a chair waiting for the others and he looked at me and said, are you going to join in this class then?? hahaha, got a chuckle from all ringside and i was quite amused he gave me a little telling off. Lovely man.
On the other hand, yesterday i was at an open show. On the last look around when the judge comes and looks at front and rear legs etc, my girl was completely ignored. He looked at the bitch in front of me, completely ignored my girl and walked straight past to the next bitch, i said loud enough for him to hear me, you are supposed to look at her, and he then placed her 4th. I have no problem with someone not liking my bitch but i paid the same and deserve to be treated the same as everyone else. I was disgusted with his manner and several people outside the ring were gobsmacked at what he had done. Had i not said anything, i have no doubt she would have been flung out. If he had looked at her then thrown her out i wouldnt have batted an eyelid! He wasnt a breed judge, someone i have never heard of or seen before luckily. He will go in my little black book under, NEVER AGAIN!LOL!
mel.

> He looked at the bitch in front of me, completely ignored my girl and walked straight past to the next bitch

often when the judge is nit picking between 2 or 3 dogs he wont look at all of them on the final line up, just his top 2 or 3.

I think Bertbeagle may have been talking about Andrew Brace well if she isnt she has described him.  I am sure I read in his book the reason why he does it as he does but cant remember of the top of my head.  With most smooth haired dogs they do not need to be groped all over.  What you see is what you get.  They should check the testicles to see if they are artificial so I was told by a old timer when I asked why they always checked and in my breed the tail is correct length and beagles their ears are the right length.

I do not know why some judges do that however I am sure they have their reasons.

Everyone was moaning about our judge the other day for not feeling the dogs over as well but that is their choice doesnt worry me as long as the right decision is made.

I suppose it comes down to if it isnt made right it wont move right so maybe that is what they go on.

> On the last look around when the judge comes and looks at front and rear legs etc, my girl was completely ignored.

Often on that last look you are just refreshing your memory, can't speak for others but it is often the dogs you like best you ignore as you remember them and already in your mind have them placed 1,2 or what have you, it is those who will be further down the line that you need to check on so it could be your complaint may have lost you the 1st place.

I agree.  We got the ticket at Southern Counties and I felt the judge ignored out bitch however he spent more time decided on 2nd and 3rd.

I was lined up with my GSD girl at an open show once with a good entry of eleven on twelve in the class.
The judge walked down the line and studied every dog and stood back for a good look at them until she came to mine who clearly was the only international type in the class she didn,t even stop to look at her infact she averted her eyes and walked on past.
I was fuming to say the least and was not the only one to notice in fact one of the other judges saw how upset I was after the class came up to me and said that my dog should have been the winner not disregarded and the judging was disgraceful.
I don,t consider myself a bad sport and can stand to be beaton as I,ve had lots of practice at being down the class but I strongly object to being blatantly ignored when I,ve paid the same money, given up my day and got up at the crack of dawn to show under someone who should at least have some integrity even if they have no breed knowledge.

I have seen my daughter totally overlooked in breed classes.  She is only a child and we are not big faces within the dog world although breed judges know us.

The best time was when she got her first ticket on her champion bitch and the guy who was stewarding said to her has that bitch ever been under me to which she replied yes and you gave her 5th to which he replied I obviously didnt realise who she was!

Speechless does not cover it.

Well ive never had this happen before and ive been showing 8 years. He looked at every other dog in the class but mine and there were 7 present so couldn't even say it was just his top 2 or 3! Perhaps he just has a funny way of judging!!!;-)
mel.

Have been totally ignored on several occasions and then pulled out first and on the other hand I and another exhibitor were moved again, twice and then both chucked out, strange world but since I have been judging you do things that onlookers or exhibitors may think strange but it is not ignorance, bad manners nor disinterest we are just getting things straight in our heads.

Right or wrong the long suffering exhibitors have to accept whatever method the judge finds helpful in making up there minds.

I don't under any circumstances condone a judge being rude or unfair, all dogs should be treated the same and if you ask an exhibitor to move you are duty bound to watch, but at the end of the class when they, the judges, are making up their minds just who has the exhibit they consider nearest to the breed standard and who is next and so on they may become distracted and do some strange things. If we could judge one dog against another it would be so much easier but we have to try and compare each with our understanding of the perfect dog which none of us have ever seen and never will.

Ah Chloe101, I have just worked out who you are...! Took me a while, many congratulations on your CC at SCCS! Super stuff! Zulu my new lad got his final points for his JW yesterday so we are well chuffed and he turned 13 months last Thursday so delighted! So that's both my show dogs with SBN not bad for only a couple of years showing (does seem longer though). Was nice to see you at Bath, hopefully see you at a few more shows during the season.

ive been under most all rounders and also many many specialists and seen all types of styles...but this was unbelievable....rude and ignorant....and every single exhibitor without fail was shocked at the behaviour.

Sam that is appalling, one wonders if he spends every weekend upsetting exhibitors. Perhaps it is about time they started complaining to the secretary who in turn should report it to the KC and they in turn should have a word in said judges ear, providing they can get his attention.

A few years ago, at an Open show I stayed to see the dog I gave BOB to, in BIS (not judged on group system) The BIS judge went over this dog then asked her to do a triangle. As she got to the end of the ring on the 1st leg of triangle, he turned and started going over the next dog!! Everyone was gobsmacked and the steward tapped judge on shoulder and pointed out his mistake (He was an elderly judge)
I think he realised his mistake and felt like a proper burk and gave the dog Reserve BIS!!

setters4me, this judge did it with every dog!!!

> this judge did it with every dog!!!

He obviously has no interest in dog at all, why I wonder does he not give up and take up something else.

Hi Bertbeagle AKA Sherlock Holmes your life with a scent hound is obviously paying off :)

I was over the moon for you.  To get one stud book  number in beagles is a miracle two is a real celebration.

The queen of mean is in season at present but she is being spayed after this time and after my holiday I am getting another one although him indoors doesnt agree.

I was right though it was Andrew Brace wasnt it ;)

Chloe101

Yes, it was my super sniffer! Another baby Beagle, great news! One is never enough, lol that why I have now have 4, was meant to be 3 though, amazing how quickly you collect them up my oldest is 7 now bless him. Yes it was Andrew Brace, I thought I had described him well. See you soon. :)

Ian is now being outvoted 4 to 1 so I think he is going to give in.  He hates it when hound days clash with the others as he has me on his case.  I agree though I could have a houseful of beagles. I gave Clarence and Narla lots of big cuddles but I want my own ones :)  Ian wants a houseful of miniature schnauzers but I have told him he is going to have to groom them.  We are going to be moving this year so he wont have any objections. 

Hopefully see you soon :)

Last year I won best veteran bitch at my breed club ch show. i was so plsd till I realized that in order to challenge we would have to go under the 'lady' that was the dog judge.  (bad history from years back, although the 'lady' has never spoken to me! ever she judged ME on hearsay) I did concsider withdrawing, but felt that would look bad , so in we went , ran into the ring after the male and his owner, they then were gone over by the bitch judge and moved. in the meantime the 'lady' cam over and asked is 'this the dog'? I said Yes, she patted my dog on the back and said well done and walked away, didnt go over or move my bitch. when she was only a few feet away from us I heard the steward say best veteran is the dog............. I was very angry as I felt she could have at least gone over my bitch and even perhaps moved her, after we pay for that privildge, we knew we werent going to win but it didnt look good, and when I came out of the ring a person that has been in my breed longer than me  ( me in 27yrs) said 'that was ver noticable'  a couple of other people commented also and knew why this has happen.  then for the critique, the 'lady' shot herself in the foot when she wrote of the male who won (a very nice dog by the way) that you really had to go over this dog to appreciate him! Hmmmm.  Just incase you read this 'Lady' I did enjoy this year when both your really let you down at the same show.  (she will know what I mean)!

Strange how things jog your memory.  I was showing my mum's gordon setter at an open show having stupidly put him under a judge whose dog we had consistently beaten.  There were seven in the class - five places -guess who was one of the two that got left out.  What made it worse was that she turned to the other exhibtor and said sorry about leaving her out not a word to me.

What does that say about her dog if she throws out a dog that has repeatedly beaten hers.

I hope i have never been like that when i have judged.  I have always tried to be friendly and helpful and give everyone what i hope is a good value for their money.

The criteria for judging is a very simple one. The judge is employed to, in their opinion, place the dogs in each class in order of merit using the breed standard as a bluprint. Any judge who fails in that task because of personal preferences or dislikes regarding the handlers is downright dishonest. OK, all judges do interpret the standard slightly differently, and different judges attach different degrees of importance to minor faults. If we did't have these nuances of personal opinion then dog showing would be very boring because we would all know in advance who was going to win, ( though I have to say, with certain judges we DO know in advance who is going to win). Remember also, when I say the judge is employed to place the dogs in order of merit, it's your entry fees that pay the judge, so you are, in effect, employing the judge to assess your dog. I agree with you all, Frank Kane is an absolute sweetheart. You can tell he really ENJOYS judging. He is unfailingly courteous to the handlers and kind and gentle towards the dogs. Unfortunately, some of our more senior judges, (I'm not going to mention ANY names), can get very puffed up with self importance and behave with unbelievable arrogance.

Frank Kane is the best.  Totally on the level and judges as he says fit without predjudice.

I must admit though since my daughter made up her first show dog I have slightly changed my view as we have been given tickets from all rounders who wouldnt have a clue who we are above dogs who win at the highest level.  Sometimes she will lose because she is a youngster but generally she gets the placings she deserves.

I always think its sad when people cant take away their personal opinion of someone from the judging of the dog.  I have had massive arguements with two people one gave me a RCC and another placed me very highly with a lovely critique.  I must admit though if I have been beating someone dog constantly I try to avoid them just in case.

Sure those of you who have never judged will not believe it but it is not uncommon to get to the end of the class you are judging without being aware of who is holding the lead.  

chloe i dont know if you are refering to my posts or someone elses but for the record it most certainly IS NOT andrew brace Im talking about here!!!

Hi sam, no it was my post she was refering to.

> Frank Kane is an absolute sweetheart. You can tell he really ENJOYS judging

Can't agree more.
Is it me or do some judges look like they would rather be anywhere else but in the middle of that ring?
I imagine much of the haughty demeanor is to look experienced, all so much more important than everyone else. We common mortals who keep the entries coming in (and only judging when we want to and when we are invited) are the sort who are thrilled to judge our breed.

Sorry Sam I hijacked your thread slightly it was Bertbeagle I was talking to