Our puppy is 14 weks old now.

On hr feedinf sheet, her breeder reccomended that at round 3-4 months when she started to get 'queen anne legs' I should change her food from the puppy complete she is on to tinned Chappie and potatoes/rice as the lower protein will help her legs straighten out again.

I have never heard of this before, and after asking a few very experienced breeders I know, none of them have heard of it either and have said they will straighten out anyway, which is certanly what has happened in the past. However, the pup's breeder is also very experienced.

Has anyone heard of this? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

what breed is she? not something ive heard of personally but im not a breeder.

Why do you not ask your breeder why she reccomends it?  Most time legs will straighten out and she may be working on the coincedence of lowering protein slows the growth to straigghten them out.

>change her food from the puppy complete she is on to tinned Chappie and potatoes/rice

Chappie and potatoes and rice just doesn't sound like an adequate diet,i would be too worried feeding such low protein levels,not to mention the ingredients of chappie to a growing pup.

What complete is she on now Jackson?

Thanks for the replies.

She is currently on James Wellbeloved. I would like to change her to BARF/Raw feeding as I am doing with my other two, but am a bit worried about not getting it absolutely right while she is growing so quickly, so thought I'd wait until she was older.

The breeder is very experienced, with over 30 years experience in the breed, so I respect her opinion and don't want to seem like I don't, it's juts I prefer to get a 'broader view' on things.

Read up on the BARF diet, invest in grow your pup on bones by Ian Billinghurst (I did) start your pup on a raw diet, you will have much better chance of getting it right for her, and if she is a large breed she should be growing slowly, puppy pet food speeds their growth rate which can lead to joint problems.

Gosh, many breeds go through awkward stages. GSDs often go through a stage where they are a bit loose and knock-kneeded, but they do correct themselves with maturity. 

I expect your dog's breeder at some point way back decided (or was told) that low protein would help by slowing growth down - and has stuck with that formula ever since. 

If your breed is one that goes through the queen anne leg stage normally (confirmed by other breeders) personally I would ignore the breeder's advice.  

I don't believe in messing around too much with a growing pups diet - they do need higher levels of protein and calcium than adults of the same breed. 

Did she mean Queen Ann or east-west? (Just thinking it might be the latter). I have heard other people suggest that protein levels that are too high can contribute to this problem. I'd just ask if her dogs looked good and structurally sound. If so, maybe she knows what works for her lines. I certainly had to watch the protein levels with my bitch. Too much when she was younger gave her the squits. She's naturally very skinny but when I tried to feed more of the balanced diet it just came out the other end. After asking her breeder about it I started adding a lot more carbos and she gained weight beautifully. She's still skinny but I'd rather have a skinny adolescent than a fat adult. ;-) (plus her hip scores look like they'll be great)

Thanks.

Perry, I have been reading up on BARF for over a year now, and have several of both Ian billingshurts books, and Tom Lonsdales.

The breeder definitely meant Queen Anne legs Lori, it is written down on the feeding sheet. I appeciate she probably knows what is best for her lines, but can't help but worry, as I guess we all do with something that is new to us. Out of interest, what did you do with your pup?

LOL well so much for my memory! really thought is was east-west. (and I can't find my feeding sheet) I fed lower protein levels from 4-6 months and chappie for lunch in that time period. In fact she's been on adult complete since about 4 months. I had to add pasta or potatos to the complete for awhile too to get her to gain weight. (so complete with pasta/potatoes for breakfast/dinner and tin of chappie for lunch) When I just tried feeding her more, as I mentioned, it tended to go straight through. That's changed as she's aged and I've adapted her feeding to meet her needs. Now she eats arden grange for breakfast (she's getting the premium) and raw for dinner. I've had her on this since she was about 8 months old. She's so fit and healthy. She's still a skinny teen so she'll be a slow maturer, but she can run down a lurcher (seen her do it), jump 4 foot fences like a gazelle (at her age this is discouraged), has endless energy and is never sick. Can't ask for better than that.

Im raising my Deerhound pup on raw - so far I can definately say that growth is MUCH more even, a bit slower yes, but we really have NOT had any of those really weird stages where bum is high or head too big or legs gone weird... nothing at all like that ( and htough ive not had a baby deerhound on complete, i have had other breeds/crossbreeds and they have ALL had weirdly out of proportion stages).

That leads me to believe (though admittedly with no real research behind it) that much of the weird out of proportion stuff you see in pups IS due to the wrong food, too fast growth etc.

Go for it with raw you have plenty of research, books and people to quiz about it.

Im unconvinced by this too much protein idea... feeding a raw diet, im basing their diet MAINLY on protein, with a bit of green leafy veg etc... and pretty much no carbs at all... if too much protein was a problem and caused problems like puppies growing weird shapes or all wonky... i would be seeing it... and im just not!

I wonder if its not too MUCH protein, but protein from the wrong source.... and too much sugar and unhealthy fats in complete foods that send puppy growth out of kilter.

Here's a thought I've been having - do you all think dogs are more even growers than bitches? I ask because I've been around a few pups now and the boys have all been steady growers, never bum high, leggy out of proportion etc. Some have been fed raw and some on complete. Now the bitches have all been sprouters. Bum high, uneven growers. Once again a couple have been fed raw and my girl has had both. So my dog grew up on complete with added tasty bits and was a steady even grower that never had a paw out of place. My girl started on complete and moved to half raw and she's been a sprouter. Just wondered if any of you thought there was a difference between the sexes or have I just seen some skewed results in my limited experience. (it is limited)

> I wonder if its not too MUCH protein, but protein from the wrong source

Interesting thought too. I can give mine all the raw chicken in the world with no trouble but cook it and it goes right through. (boiled chicken and rice would be the worst for my dog's dodgy tums) In my opinion it's also really easy to overfeed with complete. The complete I feed has no sugar and is not high in fats - it is good stuff, nothing artificial so it's not that.

>Im unconvinced by this too much protein idea

So am i!
I've stated this a gazillion times on here,and it is not just info I'm pulling out of my arse :-D Going by the latest research,some scientific,some from well respected breeders of giant breeds,it has been proven that high protein diets do not hurt or accelerate growth.It is the calcium,and the calcium to phosphorus ratio that should be kept in check.
I think too Low protein foods would cause more problems in the short and long term than too high a protein food.

>I wonder if its not too MUCH protein, but protein from the wrong source.... and too much sugar and unhealthy fats in complete foods that send puppy growth out of kilter.

Very good point.So many foods start with maize/cereals and what not, and this is where most of the protein comes from,albeit very indigestible protein,plus the added taste enhancer sugars and fats.When the body doesn't get what it needs from the food eaten it will turn around and eat itself to get what it needs,if that makes sense?? And this would undoubtedly cause some problems in growing animals.

Lori i've found that the gangly,leggy adolescents are usually males.JME.

Having a giant breed, I do believe & have seen for myself, the damage that a high protein diet can do. I do not pull this info out of my rear end, I have first hand experience, the advice from a very reputable very experienced breeder, advice from very experienced owners and the vet (specialising in internal medicines he is also very interested in feeding the correct diet). Protein does speed growth, combine this with rapid growth of a giant breed and there can be problems caused by the resulting extra weight on an immature frame. Switching my pup to a low protein diet (18% protein) he has got over the problems caused from too much protein.

To the OP, stick to the breeders advice, I deviated from the breeders advice & ended up with my pup having so many problems he could barely walk, thankfully the breeder knew exactly what the problem was (high protein) and knew the exact diet to fix it. Some people manage to feed their pups on a high protein diet with no problems, but a good, experienced breeder will know thier lines and know what diets suit their pups best.

But as far as uneven growth - he's still gowing uneven, just much more slow. He is very bum high again, at the moment.

>feeding a raw diet, im basing their diet MAINLY on protein, with a bit of green leafy veg etc... and pretty much no carbs at all... if too much protein was a problem and caused problems like puppies growing weird shapes or all wonky... i would be seeing it... and im just not!

I've heard of people swithching to raw, to slow thier puppies growth down as it has less protein than commercial puppy food. Out of interest, how much protein is in the diet you feed?
Over 26% is considered high (by us loonies who believe in the high = bad theory ;) ), but lower than that is great. I would have though that a raw diet would be roughly 25% protein, I feed tripe & that is 11%protein. You may well be feeding a 'low-protein' diet without realising it!!

Tripe is only 11% protein as it is approximately 80% water, so it's dry matter protein (if you want to compare it with dry food you have to remove the moisture from both for a fair comparison) is actually much higher than most dry foods.

Your tripe is 20% dry matter of which 11% of the overall composition is protein so more like 55%.

Take an average dry food of 26% protein remove the moisture (about 10%) and it is about 32% of the dry matter, so your tripe is higher in protein.

> (if you want to compare it with dry food you have to remove the moisture from both for a fair comparison)

You don not need to desicate the 2 and work out the percentage of protein.  If you feed 400g of tripe (11%) instead of 200g of dry food (26%). The tripe would give 44g of protein and the dry would give 56g of protein.
Not a massive difference in those 2, but the tripe is still lower and that is comparing to a kibble with a protein level that isn't WAY too high. If you compare to a high protein food, such as orijen (44%) then the difference is much greater.

>I've heard of people swithching to raw, to slow thier puppies growth down as it has less protein than commercial puppy food.

This wouldn't make sense at all though. Tripe is about 50% protein. From memory, chicken is around the same and beef and turkey are around 55%. Rabbit and white fish are much higher, around 75% I think.

Can't get much higher protein! Much higher than most (all?) commercial foods.

Not a clue how you'd do the maths, but I cannot see for the life of me how a diet that is 80% meat can ever be lower than complete food.. and yet im just NOT seeing the problems commonly attributed to too much protein in the diet - although its all anecdotal, ive not seen them in my five dogs of varying ages and sizes and breeds, nor in any other dog I have known well, fed raw.

So the common sense conclusion is that it isnt 'too much' protein that is bad... its something else.

Since most of the high protein diets appear to be for working dogs, I wonder if there is also a lot of sugar in these diets... and too much sugar would cause many of the symptoms people blame on too much protein.

>Can't get much higher protein! Much higher than most (all?) commercial foods.

That is a high protein percentage if you are going on the dry matter value, but if you are going by the actual amount of protein consumed by a dog eating raw, then it is not high protein.

Chicken wings 10% protein*
Fish fillet chinks 15% protein
Heart chunks 15% protein
Beef chunks 17.5% protein
Mixed veg, approx 2% protein

The above food, if fed together in a ratio of 4:1 (meat to veg) then the protein is approx 11.9g per 100g food fed.
The food is fed in this state, not in the dry matter state (which only will effect the percentage of protein in an equasion, not the total amount fed).

If the raw food above has to fed at double the amount of complete (ie, 200g of raw instead of 100g complete) then the total amount of protein consumed will be less with the raw food than it would with the complete food. (raw food = 22.9g protein for every 26g protein in complete, (or 44g protein in orijen)). If bones are fed instead of some of this meat then the total protein consumed will be even less.

*nutritional values taken from: http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/products/wholemeatchunks/beef-chunks.php

Err a dog will consume about the same dry matter basis of wet food as dry to get the same calories.  Calories are made up of the fat, protein and carbohydrate, with fat having twice the calories.

A dog has to eat much more wet food to get the same calories as in the dry so will eat the higher amount of protein.

e.g my girls would need 400g of wet food but only 150g of dry.

> e.g my girls would need 400g of wet food but only 150g of dry.

I was only going by the fact that I feed tripe at twice the weight of complete.

So raw would contain more protein than complete for your dogs (if you didn't feed bones as part of a raw diet, and the complete diet having 26% protien).  Eg 1 400g meal of raw (as in the diet above) would be 47.6g protein, compared to 150g of complete (@26%) would be 39g protein 8g of protein more per meal.

Chicken Quarter with Skin - 60% moisture, 16% protein, 21% fat (DMB 40% protein, 53% fat)

Chicken Carcass - 62% moisture, 18% protein, 14% fat (DMB 47% protein, 37% fat)

Lamb Shank - 65% moisture, 23% protein, 8% fat (DMB 66% protein, 23% fat)

Calcium and phosphorus (combined) ranged approx 2 - 2.5%.

Yep all higher protein than nearly any complete.  Of course if you feeding recreational bones or a lot of bones the amount of wet food needed for a meal is more than say tripe or edible small bones.

So the high protein argument = bad doesn't hold water if the same people advocate natural or traditional meat and biscuit feeding.  Most mixers are about 10% protein, so would reduce the protein levels compared to BARF, but probably not compared to a reasonably high protein complete.

>Mastifflover-Protein does speed growth,

http://www.doglogic.com/debaunprotein.htm

Can Protein Cause Accelerated Bone Growth ?
A great deal of misinformation has been published about the adverse affects of protein on our animals. Large breed dogs, in particular, are believed to be adversely affected by consuming too much protein during their puppy and adolescent stages. This misconception is predicated on the hypothesis that protein accelerates bone development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if indeed, we are talking about good bio-available meat protein!

The protein molecule is the fundamental building block of all cellular structure in the body, whether we are talking about bone, muscle, organ, skin tissue or hair. The carnivore,, in particular, requires a large amount of protein. The body takes this protein and appropriately converts it into one of five categories so that it may be used wherever the body requires it.

Crude protein Verses usable protein.
It should be pointed out that the crude protein values listed on the pet food label do not indicate the amount of usable protein in a food, but rather the overall protein usable or non-usable that is in the package. The actual usable protein called bio-available protein is often quite less, therefore; most animals using commercial food are more apt to be protein deficient than to have too much protein. Non-available protein, which comes from grains and other difficult to digest food elements, can be problematic causing a variety of health issues from protein deficiency to digestive problems to allergies, etc, therefore; the source and quality of the protein is of primary importance. In conclusion, no one can determine the actual usable protein from a pet food label.

Calories versus proteins.
Excess calories should not be confused with excess protein as many people do. They are two distinctly different things and have little to do with one another. The majority of researchers whose studies were related to bone growth malformations found that excess calories and rapid weight gain due to excessive feeding coupled with poor mineral intake is more likely to cause problems than protein itself. Young dogs raised on a natural diet such as raw meat actually tend to grow more slowly and have fewer musculoskeletal problems than dogs raised on commercial diets because the body knows how and where to put the protein it receives; it does not need human intervention. The body uses good protein in numerous ways.

http://www.urbancarnivore.com/uc_online/pages.cfm?ID=38
The idea that diets high in fat and protein cause over nutrition, especially in large breed puppies, is invalid. There is new evidence to suggest that diets high in protein and fat do not cause orthopedic problems providing intake is restricted to prevent rapid weight gain. If a puppy consumes too many calories for his energy requirements and becomes overweight, then the risk for skeletal problems increases. Feeding low protein and fat diets that contain higher ratios of carbohydrates may in fact slow growth but it may also mean a puppy isn't receiving adequate nourishment to sustain the demands of growth. Keeping a puppy lean throughout this period of development is the key. Over feeding contributes to:

- Accelerated growth rate and obesity
- Damage to developing cartilage and growth plates
- Promotes bone disorders
- Premature closure of growth plates
- Weaker bone structure

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48372
In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes. (www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu.au).

I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which - you guessed it - elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com - a great site for general information.

Large and giant breed puppies (or any breed prone to hip dysplasia) should be fed a restricted diet to slow growth. Overfeeding encourages them to grow too fast, resulting in most of the bone and joint problems common in large breeds, including dysplasia, osteochondrosis, etc. Limit the amount you feed to keep your pup lean and slow-growing.
Never give supplemental calcium of any kind when feeding a commercial diet. Feeding an adult food to a puppy may cause excessive calcium intake, as the adult food might have more calcium for the same amount of calories than a puppy food would, while not providing the other nutrients required by puppies.
You should always feed puppies foods that are approved either for puppies or for all life stages. If you feed a food that is approved for adult dogs only, there will be inadequate amounts of protein, and improper levels of calcium and other nutrients. Large Breed Puppy Formulas may not be the answer, as they often replace protein with carbohydrates. Protein and carbohydrates contain exactly the same number of calories per gram, so reducing protein in favor of carbohydrates provides less needed nutrition without reducing calories. High protein diets are preferred, as puppies need protein to thrive and studies have shown that high protein does not lead to developmental problems, but high fat diets may contribute too many calories, leading to rapid growth.

High-Protein Diets
Contrary to many myths and popular beliefs, there is no harm in feeding a high-protein diet to dogs of any age, including puppies (see <A href="http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#Puppies">Large and giant breed puppies below) and seniors (see Senior and overweight dogs below and my article on Diet and the Older Dog for more information). Studies have proven that protein does not cause orthopedic problems in puppies, nor lead to kidney disease in older dogs. In fact, protein is extremely beneficial: it supports the immune system and the central nervous system, contributes to wound healing, helps build lean muscle, and is required for skin and coat health.

Even most dogs with kidney disease benefit from a moderate-protein rather than low-protein diet (see my Kidney Disease web page for additional info). There are very, very few health conditions where a lower-protein diet is needed, and even then, it's extremely important to feed adequate protein, as protein malnutrition will cause the body to break down its own muscle tissue to get what it needs, leading to muscle wasting and other serious problems. Even mild protein deficiency can significantly impair immune function. Dogs who get too little protein are also more susceptible to stress, including stress from injury or infection.

Dogs thrive on protein, the more the better. There is absolutely no reason to limit the amount of protein you feed your dog. Look for foods that are high in protein, rather than the typical high-carbohydrate diets that are more commonly available. Dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates; they are used in dog food mostly as an inexpensive source of calories (grains are also used to supply low-quality protein in some foods), and to help bind dry food together into kibble. Studies indicate that high-protein, low-carb foods with moderate amounts of fat also help dogs lose weight better than the traditional high-carb, low-fat (and often low-protein) weight loss diets. There are a number of newer, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets now being offered, for both adult and senior dogs. Some of these are also OK for puppies, if approved for them or for all life stages, but be careful of any with very high calcium percentages (best to stick to 2% or less calcium on a dry matter basis for large-breed puppies under the age of six months).

"I also will tell you to get the puppies off the puppy food or any high protein food or any vitamins. These puppies are growing very rapidly and we can slow this process down slightly. I recommend putting them on 21-23% adult food."  Robin Smith DVM  http://members.aol.com/RocknRob56/limping.html

Ktee, if you look at the wording on the studies you've put, they 'suggest' that protein isn't a problem - they don't prove it, so they are less of an argument than that of an experienced breeder (who has seen the effects of high protein) 99% of experienced Mastiff breeders will tell you to limit protein to between 20 - 24 %. This figure is one that has been arrived at through exprerience. Some people may 'suggest' that protein doesn't cause rapid growth, but if you've tried it yourself you will know that restricting protein will definately slow the growth down and a Mastiff pup on a 'high' protein grows like stink.
In the same wasy a breeder will tell you that a bitch hasn't read 'book of the bitch', a rapidly growing pup hasn't read the arguments about high protein being good/safe to feed.

A quote from one of the items you've put:

"The protein molecule is the fundamental building block of all cellular structure in the body, whether we are talking about bone, muscle, organ, skin tissue or hair. The carnivore,, in particular, requires a large amount of protein. The body takes this protein and appropriately converts it into one of five categories so that it may be used wherever the body requires it."
Now, by thier own argument, protein is responsible for bone growth, the individual body is responsible for proportioning how much protein (and therfore how much growth) each part gets.  So take a giant breed, who's body dictates a rapid bone growth - what would happen if you give it lots of protein???

Ktee, you have obviously not had any problems feeding a giant breed a high protein diet (good for you), I have and I would never reccomend anybody feed a high protein diet to a giant breed pup.

It is great that you are so passionate about what you believe in and it's good for people to hear different oppionions, but I will not change my mind.