sorry to keep bugging you all on this but i am trying to work out if i can afford to feed this way. i think i can as long as i am not missing anything off of this list, so if i give you an idea of what i have in mind will you let me know if you think it's good?

Breakfast

>>>>>>>

a vegetable mix depending on whats avilable (probably mixed greens pureed up) garlic, kelp, codliver oil
chicken wings, OR
chicken drumsticks/thighs OR
turkey drumstick OR
fish (either canned or fillets)
some rice or potato to bulk it up a bit, cooked to very very mushy

Dinner
.........

veg as above, ditto suppliments
beef mince OR
lamb mince OR
heart

once a week offal such as liver

a little carb again to bulk out

does this sound ok? seems to easy, i feel like i'm seriously missing something

This sounds fine.I add a little garlic with mine.I also add  some linseed/flax/sunflower seeds.You can buy a small bag in Asda (by the veggies) for about 50p.This will last about 2 weeks - I feed 4 dogs.I also add a litle fresh thyme and parsley.I have one of those growing pots you can buy in supermarkets and just throw in a few leaves when I puree.I also add either a couple of spoonfuls of a probotic yogurt or a fresh raw egg.I only feed mine once a day in the early evening.They get fresh bones/trotters/lamb breast/pigs heads from my butcher which are free.Good Luck.

knew i'd forgotten things! so yoghurt and flax seeds. i'm thinking of getting an organic veg delivery from no on, they do a bog box of veg for £10 or 13 a week, a nice looking selection. they also do organic seeds but not sureif they do flax. are any other seeds good? they defo do hemp and pumpkin

is it ok to suppliment the bone for eggs sometimes then? need to make friends with the butcher...

Eggs are fine,feed shells as well.But to be honest mine spilt them out.I only get a cheap packet of seeds from Asda or Tesco.Its the sort humans eat as a snack.But get the raw ones not dry roasted.Holland and Barret probabaly are a good bet.This isn't vital but won't hurt to add to diet.

>i feel like i'm seriously missing something<

I've been feeding BARF for 5 yrs and generally buy what is in season meat wise. Mine have whole rabbit, pheasant, lamb racks from the butcher, chicken carcasse's, tripe, beef mince that has been previously frozen, lambs hearts, kidney, liver (although my girl positively hate's it) Also fresh complete sprats, sardines, trout and also whole salmon when my fishmonger gives it to me for free at the end of the day :-)

They have banana, apple, pear, melon, cucumber, a variety of vegetable that are steamed so that they don't lose nutritional value but nothing citrus because that seems to upset mine. Basically it's what suits your particular dog. Also don't forget raw eggs, shell included for calcium albeit that doesn't really matter but mine prefer it ;-) It's really a mix and match exercise to see what your dog thrives on.

As for cost, we are actually saving money feeding this way although this is not the reason why we do it. We also have a delivery from Redcastles each month for tripe, chicken carcasses and tripe & heart.

HTH

I don't feed any fruit or veg except the occasional leftovers from our meals if there are any. I also prefer to feed bones as the last feed of the day purely because the dogs get to digest them during the evening/night when they are less active - just my personal choice. If you are feeding fruit and veg this is in addition to the amount of meat/bones they require and not as part replacement.

I actually find it cheaper to feed raw to my two dogs - if you discount the cost of the chest freezer I bought so that I can buy in bulk. I share an order from one of the bulk suppliers with someone else in my area who belongs to a raw feeding forum I also belong to. It means we can meet the minimum order price without having to have massive storage facilities and makes it far cheaper to feed in this way.

see i might need to find someone round here who can do that to. i'd like to get my meat and things from prize choice but i susepect i simply couldn't accomadate the order.

i'll be trying him on 2 pounds of meat/bone a day (one of the leonberger people on the site says thats what she feeds her bitches and my boys probably anbout the same size so we'll see how that goes), the veg etc will be extra

ta guys, i'm glad i seem to have gotten it figured out. the forums been a great help, so thanks.

when he moves in and i start it i'll prob be posting cause i'll be terrified of him choking!

> liver (although my girl positively hate's it

hehe, see i planned for this in advance and took liver to my parents to try him (and the girls) out. eldest loved it, baby girl (whos a real fuss pot) looked disgusted then very disappointed once mum had eaten hers and my boy really enjoyed it.

made the rest in to liver cake which he went nutty for :)

Do you have any local butchers?We have a few in our area and they wil all do pet mince for about 50p a kilo.My fave butcher is one of those farm butchers and his meat is organic.Tends to be beef or Lamb.He once had a huge joint of brisket left over at the end of the day and minced that for me  and charged me 25p a pound.It may be worth asking around as you can buy your pet mince once or twice a week and it won't over fill your freezer.

yeah we do have a local butcher but i don;t shop there very often as we tend to get the cheapest meat avialable (supermarket) rather than the best- poor students! i am however sending my bf to charm them (he's got that way about him :)), plus his mum is going to go charm her local butcher. she shops there frequently and has a good relationship with them so hopefully that'll pay off and we can just pick it up off her each week :)

need to do some sucking up and get some recreational bones anyway!

Astarte, Scott brothers butchers are great for bones etc as I have been told they prepare all of the meat themselves so have loads of bits left over!  The butcher closest to my house buys a lot of stuff in ready prepared so doesn't have bones spare.  I get free marrow bones from Scott Bros and they are reasonable for other stuff too.  they are quite close to you too if you are in Stobbie.

i'm in blackness, but yeah i've heard they are pretty good, it's a massive butcher isn't it?. my flatmate is actually moving round the corner from them so when i go vist her they will be getting a wee visit i think! the blackness butchers do their own meat i think so i'll try them as well (just up the road)

They are on strathmartine road. I thought you lived in stobbie beside baxter park which is why I thought of Scott Bros for you.  whoops.  I used to live in Blackness but never asked the butcher for meat.

lol, no i mentioned before that i was looking at a flat there though. yeah, my mum uses scotts sometimes, they are good.

Me too Harley. I take the point about balance, but your average Wolf has the same biological make up as the domestic dog, with a monogastric stomach filled with Hydrochloric acid (ph1). Having killed a Deer for example, all meat would be consumed including entrails and contents, which would be herbage. I believe it is disproportionate to feed two helpings of veg to one of meat, as is often suggested. The grassy contents of a Deer's intestines do not logically constitute a 2:1 ratio when compared to the volume mass of its carcass.It's a very satisfying way of feeding-they just love it! I feed mine brown rice for breakfast, mixed with one tin of Tuna in oil between all five of them, and raw meat in the evening after their walk. I wouldn't say that I save a huge amount of money, maybe £10-20 over a month, but that depends on what you are comparing it to. 

So glad this thread came up!!!  I was going to post a topic similar, as I am also thinking of making my own girls food.  Mind you, dont have to feed large dogs, so the measurements and amounts are different, but at least this gives me a point in the right direction.

Quick question though, whats the difference between a BARF diet and a RAW diet?  Both have been talked about, and I am so used to feeding kibble, that I have no idea what either was, or the difference between the two.

BARF stands for either Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones and Raw Food. Basically, a raw diet. I have four Toy breeds and a Bulldog pup. Today, I bought enough green Tripe to last them a month and it cost £24. I also give brown rice at breakfast with one can of Tuna in Sfl oil or one same sized tin of pink Salmon between them all. I would estimate that to do it properly, not much money is saved, but the satisfaction in seeing health and happiness is worth it! One of my girls does what I call,"The chatty chatty show", when she is happy or excited (esp about food). This involves speedy, silent speech. (isn't that aliteration for ya?). Anyway, this morning after three full days on wholehearted BARF, I'm quite certain she was mouthing, "All things bright and beautiful", before her breakfast.  

BARF stands for either Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones and Raw Food. Basically, a raw diet. I have four Toy breeds and a Bulldog pup. Today, I bought enough green Tripe to last them a month and it cost £24. I also give brown rice at breakfast with one can of Tuna in Sfl oil or one same sized tin of pink Salmon between them all. I would estimate that to do it properly, not much money is saved, but the satisfaction in seeing health and happiness is worth it! One of my girls does what I call,"The chatty chatty show", when she is happy or excited (esp about food). This involves speedy, silent speech. (isn't that aliteration for ya?). Anyway, this morning after three full days on wholehearted BARF, I'm quite certain she was mouthing, "All things bright and beautiful", before her breakfast.  

BARF stands for either Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones and Raw Food. Basically, a raw diet. I have four Toy breeds and a Bulldog pup. Today, I bought enough green Tripe to last them a month and it cost £24. I also give brown rice at breakfast with one can of Tuna in Sfl oil or one same sized tin of pink Salmon between them all. I would estimate that to do it properly, not much money is saved, but the satisfaction in seeing health and happiness is worth it! One of my girls does what I call,"The chatty chatty show", when she is happy or excited (esp about food). This involves speedy, silent speech. (isn't that aliteration for ya?). Anyway, this morning after three full days on wholehearted BARF, I'm quite certain she was mouthing, "All things bright and beautiful", before her breakfast.  

But what does RAW stand for? I'm given to understand that it's different to BARF (I think it pretty much omits all veg matter but could be wrong). Can anyone describe the difference between the two feeding systems?

I had always undertood BARF stood for Bones and Raw Food - but I see the UK Barf Club has full information. http://www.ukbarfclub.co.uk/about-barf-feeding/what-is-barf.php

Cetainly an interesting topic - I just know I'd stress to much about getting the measurements right.  I know it is usually trial or error with these things but I'd worry about my dogs not having the right amount of everything at anytime.

RAW just stands for not cooked IMO :)

ditto ditto

from the reading i've been doing crespin it seems to be fairly easy to do. plus for the size of beast i have it's not going to be all that more costly than feeding a good quality food like JWB etc. i worked out how much it'll be at its most expensive to feed him for a month (i.e. buying all his meat from a supermarket) and it's really not much more.

i am terrified of the first time i feed him bone though- i know it should be fine but still, i wouldn't be a good owner if i didn't worry would i? :)

i imagine feeding your wee ones on BARF would be pretty easy and cheap.

is raw entirely raw? like uncooked veg? cause that wouldn't work as well would it? they need help breaking the vegies down

I know of two main schools of thought for raw feeding and this is my understanding of them. One is bones and raw feeding based on the Billinghurst model. Raw meaty bones, organ meat and veg mostly. Then there is the prey model; the ideal being whole prey that would be a part of the animal's natural diet. A whole rabbit for instance. As it's not always easy to pop down to the grocery and get a bunny for breakfast prey model feeding tries to emulate the same ratios of meat:bone:organs. It has a higher percentage of meat than the Billinghurst BARF method.

I sort of feed prey model but with some veg and when I do it's usually raw. I toss a bunch of different veg into my food processor and mince. It all goes into one big pot of dog veg that's frozen in small containers. My dogs have no trouble digesting that (unlike whole raw carrots for instance which tend to come out in a similar shape they went in as). They also get a variety of whatever happens to be around. Last night was whole trout with some leftover chunks of sushi (tuna rolls) and some of the trimmed tuna with a chunk of cucumber. If we have leftover cooked veg or meat they'll happily eat that.

> into my food processor and mince

sorry, processing works to! i understand they have trouble with the cell walls of veg and either cooking of mincing helps break it down?

sushi? lucky doggies! :)

I would be nervous about giving bones as well, as everything I have read says bones are dangerous for dogs.  It actually shocked me, when I read some people feed their dogs chicken bones, as according to articles I have read, they are the ones that splinter and could puncture the intestines.

Was watching a program last night, called Good Dog, which had a segment on making your own dog food.  He used Hot dogs, as the meat source, but I wouldnt do that either, as hot dogs here at least are all filler. 

It is such a confusing path to start, feeding BARF or RAW.  I know though, for me personally, I wouldnt feed totally RAW.  I would cook the meat (some dont) and veg. 

Picked up Chers food that she needs to be on at the moment, and for a 5lb bag, its $25!!!  That is so expensive, as your high quality kibble, is somewheres between $10 - $15 per 5 lb bag!  Feeding RAW or BARF is somewhat non-existant in Canada, I only know of a few people that do it.  And their thinking is, well if its leftovers for a human, dogs can have it too.  But all those spices???  It is so confusing as to where to start!!!!

Thanks for starting this post Astarte!

Something to keep in mind is why people feed raw instead of cooking. Cooking can break down a lot of essential nutrients and enzymes. That's why I feed everything, including the veg, raw. (plus I promise you, you never want to smell green tripe cooking!)

chicken is good! chicken bones are fine! but never ever ever cooked ones! cooked bone is bad! (learning my BARF mantras before i start ;))

raw meat is fine for the dogs as they have a digestive tract designed to cope with it, it is far shorter than a humans and is much more acidic so can handle many nasties that we cannot (just think what they sometimes scoff on walks etc with no harm coming to them!), cooking actually removes much of the nutrients (apparently)

for Tio the main source of his bone will be from chicken and turkey- tesco value chicken wings are just the job apparently! £1.50 will cover a meal and a half ish (i think!)

wouldn't dream of feeding hot dogs except as a treat, they are full of fat and rubbish!

> Picked up Chers food that she needs to be on at the moment, and for a 5lb bag, its $25!!!&nbsp; That is so expensive, as your high quality kibble, is somewheres between $10 - $15 per 5 lb bag!

they can be so pricey and the way i see it i'm forever hassling my flatmate for only eating cereal and toast and not proper meals- why would i want to feed my dog that way? i was brought up to believe in fresh homemade cooking and to loath pre-made stuff. as such BARF suits my idea of a good diet.

> plus I promise you, you never want to smell green tripe cooking!)

to be honest you never want to smell green tripe at all!

My decision to look into a homemade dog food comes with the last bout of illness with my girls.  I cant seem to find a good quality food, that would help resolve the formations of crystals and UTIs.  My vets yesterday said that this food that Cher is on, is a really good one, but I hate vet food!  Last time I put her on a vets food she had the poos for 3 straight months!  (she was 13 weeks old at the time, and only 3 lbs!)

I figure, that if I do this, at least I know what they are getting, and that it is good quality food, instead of fillers and grains.  Also, I can assure myself that it isnt cow hooves instead of real quality beef.  And, I wouldnt be affected by food recalls of dog food.  Dont know if you had it in the UK, but last year almost ALL dog food was recalled because of contaminated wheat gluten, which were giving the dogs kidney failure.  So many died. 

With this, though, are you to add any suppliments??  Do you add Seagreens, and Kelp?  I usually add seagreens to chers kibble, every other day (its supposed to help with coat).  Would their still be a need for that? 

raw meat is fine for the dogs as they have a digestive tract designed to cope with it, it is far shorter than a humans and is much more acidic so can handle many nasties that we cannot (just think what they sometimes scoff on walks etc with no harm coming to them!), cooking actually removes much of the nutrients (apparently)

Never thought of that, I was just worried uncooked chicken can cause seminella (sp?).    I am such a worry wart when it comes to my dogs.  But I am learning that kibble is such a horrid option, as so many things can go wrong with it.  At least with BARF I know what my dogs are getting, and that it is a good quality.

There was a program on a while back, called "A Dogs Breakfast" which placed the idea in my head to go and feed human grade food.  Some of the things mentioned in the program were eye opening!!!!  If we only knew what went into our dogs kibbles!

> Do you add Seagreens, and Kelp?

well i've not started yet (tios moving in next month), at the mo mum and dad have him on a kibble but i want to change once he's settled with us. i am planning on adding kelp and cod liver oil though. apparentyl alfalas good but its hard to get over here so it might suit you better.

> was just worried uncooked chicken can cause seminella

salmonella (sp? who knows...) is found on everything but in higher levels in raw chicken, but dogs have been designed for thousands of years to cope with stuff like that so will be fine.

if you search for a thread i started called stressing about BARF loads of folk gave me great advise on it.

> At least with BARF I know what my dogs are getting, and that it is a good quality.

thats exactly how i feel about it, and i would certainly not want to live off of something out of a packet every day.

since your guys are quite little i should image it would be super cheap to feed yours on it, i've worked out that at absolute most it'll be £50 a month (very generous estimate) to feed Tio BARF and i imagine he eats more a day than yours combined (or would it just be cher trying it?)

basically i think it needs to be one meaty boane meat a day, one meat meal, a bit of veg, little bit of carbs, one organ meal a week (not heart, that counts as meat, but liver is so cheap!!) and some extras which cost about £20 to do around a years worth!

still gotta buy a freezer though...

since your guys are quite little i should image it would be super cheap to feed yours on it, i've worked out that at absolute most it'll be £50 a month (very generous estimate) to feed Tio BARF and i imagine he eats more a day than yours combined (or would it just be cher trying it?)

Both Casie and Cher would be switched, and in kibble they eat about 1/2 cup a day.  To put that in perspective, a 5lb bag of kibble lasts me (per dog) about 6 weeks. 

I looked at the website, given above, and it has some really good information on it.  Just no parts to explain, how to actually feed BARF. 

Off to find your other post!!!

Crespin google for Britbarf and you'll find a forum devoted to feeding dogs a raw diet - it's a Yahoo group. The members are very helpful and you'll find experienced people to help you.

@ Crespin a dog is a carnivore (well some people might say it is an omnivore but within zoology it is agreed it is a carnivore).  Totally different from a humans digestive system.  What always surprises me, when we go to a zoo and see a lion and tiger and seals being fed raw meat and fish we think it's totally fine and the right thing to feed an animal species appropriate food and we go home and start cooking meat for our carnivore or worse, scoop some kibble into a bowl.   I feed raw (meat and meaty bones only, rarely anything else added) since good 18 months, basically more than half of my dogs life and I never looked back.

as far as i know you: grab a bunch of veggies, maybe some spuds or rice to, cook them or blend them then can keep them in the fridge for a couple of days to use for a few meals
                             get some raw meaty bones (chicken legs, wings, necks or backs, fish, turkey drumsticks etc...) and put them in the bowl with some veg
                             add some suppliments
                             feed to the dog who will apparently massively enjoy it
                             repeat at dinner with meat instead of meaty bones

super easy! not sure about amounts for you though. missie was really helpful for me cause she gave me an idea of what her leo bitches (about the same size as tio) eat so gave me an idea about amounts. i'm sure you'll find someone with pin sized dogs to give you an idea.

there is loads to read on the internet and people have put up examples of their recipies as well to give you ideas. i'm far less scared of it from talking to people on here, and having seen the difference in our lot from simply getting tripe aded to their mixer i can't wait to see how he does on this diet.

plus they poo less! major bonus!

Crespin google for Britbarf and you'll find a forum devoted to feeding dogs a raw diet - it's a Yahoo group. The members are very helpful and you'll find experienced people to help you.

Now pending membership, so thank you.  Just hopefully they will accept me, as I am not from the UK.  It did say it was open to anyone, but still a tad nervous. 

Also searched other yahoo groups, to see if there are some more local ones.  Its just I know, from reading this forum, BARF seems to be a more recognized way of feeding in the UK, than here in Canada.

Thanks for the info!!!

With the size of your two I would think that buying your supplies at the supermarket wouldn't be that horrible. Meat here is loads more expensive than in California (I don't know how Canada compares) so feeding the dogs raw without the bulk suppliers or kindly local butchers would be cost prohibitive to most people. Other than recommendations for where to buy you being in Canada will make no difference to the Britbarf board. :)

> Cetainly an interesting topic - I just know I'd stress to much about getting the measurements right.&nbsp; I know it is usually trial or error with these things but I'd worry about my dogs not having the right amount of everything at anytime

i am worried about this to but i am assured that variety is the spice of life and as long as they get lots of different things it should be ok.

I'm sure you are right, perhaps one day I will take the risk - certainly liked your menu's that you had prepared.  Will look out for future posts from you as to how it is going.  Good luck.

thanks! when big boy arrives and starts it i'll let everyone know how its going, if i see an imporvement in condition etc. perhaps i'll start a blog on it with before and after pics :)