Hi
Have just been chatting to my friend and got talking about dogs - she said her hairdresser has a new boxer puppy and its been bred to have a shorter tail??? Can this be done?? 

I thought if you left a boxer undocked its tail would be a good length, say like a lab. Its been to the vet and he commented that it hadn't been docked.

Just wanted to know if possible to breed such a dog so its gets a shorter tail.

Apparently brought somewhere surrey way but cant be 100% on that.

Boxers carry the bob tail gene (Many years ago they were crossed with the corgi I think!) And therefore any lengh in tail is possible. :)

Not may years ago at all, the Corgi cross boxer litter that introduced the gene to the boxer gene pool was born in 1992. 

Here is the Website for the Bobtail boxer breeding carried out by Boxer breeder and geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanagh.  http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html

A friend has a Bobtail puppy and you can tell it isn't docked as it has this characteristic fatty pad at the base of the tail.

Um and amazingly there are full litters of bobtails being born, yeah right!  Sorry with having a breed that are naturally born with bobtails without another breed being added never in 16 years have I had a full litter of bobtails.

Statistically there should only be about half bobtails in a litter and one parent must them selves (in the case of boxers) be a bobtail.  Also the pedigree would have to go back to a steynmere Boxer, and with the first cross being only 16 years ago should most still be on a five generation pedigree.

Boxers carry the bob tail gene

I'm afraid I must correct you there Ice Queen.
Very few boxers carry the Bob-tail gene and only then if the dog carries the Steynmere lines -for it was that Kennels owner, the renowned geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach, who introduced the bob-tail corgi into the mix.

>Very few boxers carry the Bob-tail gene

Therefore my statement was correct, boxers carry the bob-tail gene, be it just afew! ;)

so it is possible and legal for her to have a boxer with a shorter tail then.

what i am now confused about is if at some point the boxer was crossed with a corgi then surely the boxers now are not 100% pedigree if they have corgi gene???? sorry if i am sounding a bit thick on this and dont wan to offend any boxer owners - just trying to undestand how it works.

From the fourth generation (when the KC accepted the dogs onto the bred register) crossing back to Boxer the pups would only have 6.125% Corgi blood and no Corgi traits as those were selected against from the second generation.

The introduction of another breed for a specific purpose can and has been sanctioned by the Kennel club (and other overseas registries).  I believe similar outbreeding has occurred in other breed, for example I believe Springer Spaniel blood was introduced to the Field Spaniel gene pool at one time in the fairly recent past, because the gene pool was so small.

There is in fact a procedure to alow for such things to happen when needed.

thanks for that, think i undestand a bit now.

I think there is a danger of producing very incosistent dogs, I know people who have a brother and sister (seperate owners) and both have very different tails, 1 short/stumpy, the other is 3/4 length, they also look very different facially.

Don't look much like Boxers to me.

I have spoken to a few breeders and they are staying clear of going down this route for now until they are sure of any effects on Temprements and other charactoristics.

Well looking at Bruce's site they sure look Boxers to me, but tehn I am not a breed specialist.

To be honest once the dogs were accepted onto the breed regsiter they were 93.875% pure boxer, their offspring would be over 97%, and their offspring again over 98%, which I think is the stage we are at now.

Have to agree with you Barbara, think there are some boxers that do not resemble the breed but that is because of careless and un-considered breeding not from a very well thought through out cross.

I would also think that these "pet bred" ones don't even really know about the bobtail gene so it's amazing how so many are coming through at this moment in time.

Do you mean bob tails? Are there? How do you know is there a register or some such?

No don't know if there's a register, but there have been quite a few internet adverts recently stating that whole litters of Boxers have been born with short tails.  I'm sorry but I just don't believe that whole litters can be born, neither do my friends in the breed.

I think you are probably correct; I don't visit dog-selling sites so I was unaware. Would say these dogs were either imported or have been banded. They will sell so I expect they, the breeders, think it worth the risk. Pity the poor innocent who buys one thinking it can be shown. It is not difficult to see the difference between a bobtail and docked tail.

Boxers carry the bob tail gene

I'm afraid I must correct you there Ice Queen.
Very few boxers carry the Bob-tail gene and only then if the dog carries the Steynmere lines -for it was that Kennels owner, the renowned geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach, who introduced the bob-tail corgi into the mix[/url][url=]Therefore my statement was correct, boxers carry the bob-tail gene, be it just a few! 

Sadly , no your statement was not correct, very few Boxers carry the Bobtail gene... and any that are born Bobtails should be able to be traced back to BRUCE  CATTANACH (Steynmere)    The Gene pool for Bobtails is still very small, but it is surprising as perrodeagua said,   how many litters and even more surprising  is whole litters being Bobtails.

It is also worth remembering that not all bobtails will be the required length,  so we will now see a variety of lengths of tails from Bobtail litters.

As before the ban,  the wrong length was simply docked to the correct length.

Do boxers, or don't boxers carry the bob tail gene?

The answer is YES, some boxers, tracing back to a certain line DO carry the bob tail gene.  Not another breed, but boxers do!

However what concernds me is how boxers (and corgies) can be bred bobtail to bobtail but other breeds such as the aussie, the SWD etc can't?

Would think it has to depend on the type of genes involved in the cause of the bob. Would suggest you try and contact someone who has an intimate knowledge of the genetic make up of the Boxers and Corgi as against the Aussi and the SWD

>Do boxers, or don't boxers carry the bob tail gene?

Are vegetables cabbages?

All cabbages are vegetables, but the vast majority of vegetables aren't cabbages. The vast majority of boxers don't carry the bobtail gene. Not all boxers (and not all corgis either) carry the bobtail gene. Just because some do doesn't mean that a statement implying that all do is correct.

But the breed does....

No, only one line, not the breed as a whole, which is what you're suggesting.

It's a bit like saying "Irish Red and Whites have epilepsy" just because one or two do.

Do boxers, or don't boxers carry the bob tail gene?

The answer is YES, some boxers, tracing back to a certain line DO carry the bob tail gene.  Not another breed, but boxers do!

However what concernds me is how boxers (and corgies) can be bred bobtail to bobtail but other breeds such as the aussie, the SWD etc can't

Your origanl statement said ,Boxers carry the bob tail gene   implying all Boxers carry the Bobtail gene,  which is misleading.

Only one line carries the gene and that is steynmere  any Bobtail will  be traceable to this line.

Also Bobtail is never bred to Bobtail in Boxers...  No breeder of Boxers would follow this practice.

Any Bobtail can be bred  to a Bobtail, be it SWD, Aussie, Boxer,   but  Ethically, it is not something breeders will do.

Ice Queen, there has been nothing shown in the SWD that would make us not worry about it, but those of us in America, the UK, Sweden, Finland etc. are not going to take the chance of using bobtails together.  We have unknowingly used shortails with bobs.  When I say short tails they are males that looked as though they'd been born with full tails but they must have been one vertebrae short of a full tail as when they have been used with full tailed bitches they have produced bobs.

The mother of one said male and the father of the other said male were both natural short tails.

But the breed does....

No, the breed does not!!!!!

A very small proportion does........NOT THE WHOLE BREED!

> Also Bobtail is never bred to Bobtail in Boxers...  No breeder of Boxers would follow this practice.
>
> Any Bobtail can be bred  to a Bobtail, be it SWD, Aussie, Boxer,   but  Ethically, it is not something breeders will do.

The genetic evidence from Bruce's work is that two doses of the bobtail gene give a lethal effect, btu any such potential pups die early on after conception along with other surplus potential pusp at the implantation stage, as they are not viable.  The evidence for this is that bobtailt o bobtail do not produce smaller litters (whcih statistically they should by a quarter).  Also by testing no bobtail pup born has been found to have two copies of the gene and is why all bobtail pups carry one gene for tails and one not and can only at most produce half bobtail offspring when mated to tailed or bobtail partner.

The genetic evidence from Bruce's work is that two doses of the bobtail gene give a lethal effect, btu any such potential pups die early on after conception along with other surplus potential pusp at the implantation stage, as they are not viable.  The evidence for this is that bobtailt o bobtail do not produce smaller litters (whcih statistically they should by a quarter).  Also by testing no bobtail pup born has been found to have two copies of the gene and is why all bobtail pups carry one gene for tails and one not and can only at most produce half bobtail offspring when mated to tailed or bobtail partner.

Thanks for that,  his site makes good reading if you have the odd hr or so...

I found the original articles in The dog Papers fascinating, and have re read them on the site several times.  I have always found practical genetics fascinating.

Not all the Steynmere lines carry bobtail genes. I have two bitches both from Steynmere lines that aren't bobtails.

But Steynmere is the creator of the bobtail so when doing pedigree analysis you would expect to find a Steynmere bobtail
in the pedigree. Although there are some 'quirks' of nature and you will have the odd dog crop up with a bobtail.
Dr Cattanach had a Norwegian dog in the UK for a time with a short tail which was called Cavajes Beyond Belief (Mack).
He wasn't a dog that was intentionally bred for a bobtail. Infact I think if I remember correctly there were no bobtail
lines behind him. So it can and does happen but I think it would only be the odd dog in a litter not all ;)

Dr Cattanach has bred bobtail to bobtail to see the effects. I think you would have to ask him for further answers.
(He is rather busy at the moment with Cardiomyopathy work for the Boxer Health Committee).

I had a litter last year, of the 7 pups I had 2 that were bobs and both had slightly different lengths of tail.
I know of another litter using the same sire that had pups and she had 4 of 6 pups with bobs.
I also heard that another lady had a daughter of this sire that had 6 pups and 5 were bobtails.
So as you can see from the above it does vary. I wouldn't ever think that there would be a possibility of a whole litter
being bobs, but as above I have heard from others who have come close to all the litter being bobs (always typical
isn't it when you would like a bit of a choice it never happens..still I'm happy with my Nora)

My bobtail was at Crufts doing Discover Dogs on the Friday this year along with her tailed litter sister and their 2nd cousin (docked).
If anyone wants to see her, she is being campaigned in the Southern Counties regions at Open shows and some Champ Shows.
(I have my vets letter to prove she isn't docked)
Her temperament is typical Boxer, and although she isn't a flashy Boxer, she's classed a solid (like her sire) as she has minimal white markings.
If anyone is at Southern Counties on Working day you can see her there too. She's NFC there but her longtailed flashy sister
will be competing in classes and again they are typical 8 month old Boxer pups.
My two girls are 6th generation bobtail bred. 

That dog was a Screwtail that occur in any breed.  someone I know has a white GSD born like that except her tail was fused to one side (only about 2 inches long) and the breeder let her have her as no-one wanted to buy her.  In the end the tail needed amputating as it was causing problems for her sitting comfortably being fused at it was

Dr Cattanach has bred bobtail to bobtail to see the effects. I think you would have to ask him for further answers.
(He is rather busy at the moment with Cardiomyopathy work for the Boxer Health Committee).

The details of that are all in the articles that were published in the Dog press and are contained on teh website.