Hi All

After reading through a million posts on here (not exaggerating either) i have read lots about the pack order and hierachy of your dogs and it started me wondering, does there have to be a top dog?

The reason i ask is that none of mine appear to be top dog!!  i have 3 male shepherds aged 6, 4 and 2 (the 2 year old is entire) and a 6 month old shepherd bitch, they all get on absolutely fab and have never had anything more than a grumble between the boys, they accepted the new pup easily and are happy with her company but i have know idea which one is the boss and have never reinforced one as being higher ranking than the others.

Opinions please...........

i've always found that there is a pecking order but its never a really strict thing, each dog has its own situations in which its boss. generally for us the bitches have been the bosses but if there is some kind of "threat" (such as the posty lol) its boys who are first to guard. its not a rigid thing like it appears when being described- some set ups are but others are very maleable and the dog that probably is alpha doesn;t enforce it (like our current girl) because they don't see the need.

no there doesnt always have to be a top dog ive found some older dogs that are living with a younger dog like them to know their place and when they have had enough of being bothered by the younger dog they tend to snap or growl so the young one knows when to leave alone but thats it really.
out of my two i dont think their is but when kacey is chewing a bone and bailey comes near her kacey with sometimes snap at her then bailey knows to leave her alone lol

You only really notice a pecking order is trying to take place when dogs are aggressive or over dominant towards each other trying to be top dog, if they have all been well socialised and well trained, a new dog usally just slips in and is accepted if you have already established you are the leader not the dogs, hence why people say to let your dog mature first before getting a new one, I believe one reason this is said is so the pup knows the other dog is adult and naturally a leader over him.

Just my theories :)

like has been said I think it changes according to situation, my WSD is boss at home without a doubt but outside of home my sprollie is.  Will be interesting if it changes when new pup matures.

It's great that you have a multi dog household. Just goes to show when you read all the dog "expert" books that they advise you 1. not to get the same sex or breed of dog.2. that males can live in harmony or bitch's only in a household but once you get 2 males and a female living together fights can happen. Obviously you are alpha pack leader in your house. Way to go TOP DOG !! 

To be honest the posters situation is as most regulars advise a good age gap between the dogs,a nd also only one entire male, and the bitch is as yet a puppy so no reason fro conflict, which is unlikely with the other males being castrated.

When the bitch matures it is very likely that she will be noticeably the boss ;)

Things do change and evolve in a multi-dog household.  I have found this with up to five generations of bitches living here with the occasional visiting dog or bitch too.

Generally age determines rank, but when a younger dog reaches full social maturity at around 4 and there is a vacant slot higher up if they are that kind of character they will take it.

I have twice noticed younger dogs gaining a higher place than their mothers who were not politically motivated.  I have also had an alpha an a retired Alpha sort of share top spot.

At present the one who took precedence in the canines over her now dead grandmother seems to be power sharing with her own granddaughter.  Both seem to keep slightly aloof from the other two which are the younger ones mother and daughter.

Of course when they all get along, are happy to share bones and toys and attention the signs can be pretty subtle, and not very noticeable.

Wow thanks for your replies everyone, i think i was trying too hard to see things that were not there really. I must admit i got each dog to a nice age and a good level of training before introducing another and am amazed at how smoothly it has all gone so long may it continue.

Thanks for your advice

The top dog should be you, and just the fact that they all get on means that you are doing your pack leader job . Keep it up.

I've never ever subscribed to 'pecking order' mine have mutual respect for each other (2 dogs 2 bitches) they have never had a cross word apart from a few grumbles, maybe our breed is more amicable than others it seems to instigate that way here.. its swings and roundabouts we never pay more attention to another as that can bring jealousy into play they all get fair and equal treatment and its always worked for us...

Couldn't agree more jelliman.  The owner/s should be top dog.  Myself and my OH (and kids) always walk through door before our 2 yr old entire dog (and also 9 week bitch) and he has to wait until we tell him to eat, go in the garden, etc.  I think it makes the dogs happier because they know their place (Ceasar Milan showed us the way to go!)

Hi Debussy

I personally don't go in for the whole 'dominance theory', i do none of those things that you are supposed to do to be 'top dog', i let the dogs through doors ahead of me, they eat before me on occasion, i allow them on the sofa (they get off if i ask though). I do not believe that dogs challenge us mere humans for position in the household. Don't get me wrong i have set boundaries for my dogs from the day they arrive in my house such as no begging for food, no going upstairs and i teach them to bark on command but none of that 'pack leader' stuff.

Just a personal comment - i can't stand Ceaser Milan and find some of his methods barbaric, but hey each to their own ;-)

Hi Debussy

ditto michelle here - pack leader et al is outdated and of no consequence since derived from flawed theory.

FWIW, personally I'd rather my dogs preceded me through doors and down stairs - much less likely to knock me over .....

My dogs get fed when they are hungry - when I eat in relation to them is irrelevant.  They have no underlying plans towards world domination and are perfectly aware of the fact that they are a different species to the bi-ped inhabitants.  Unlike humans who reason, cajole and hoodwink, most animals fall into the category of "prey" or predator" - ergo they may well try to dominate another of their own species but not that of a different one :) 

We are their primary source of food, water, shelter and comfort - they do things to please us, not to outwit, overpower or control us :)

As an aside I find CM's methods at best questionable and, IMO, sometimes verging on dangerous as they often address behaviours where inappropriate handling can make things so much worse :( :( :(

Teri

Hi michelle,

similarly to yourself I've found that the pecking order among my "gang" is interchangeable depending on a number of factors :)  I now think it is relatively rare for there to be an outright "alpha" among them and more often than not the ones most likely to be perceived as such are not really cut out for it :) 

IME it's ususally all mouth and trousers with the boys whereas the seemingly most gentle bitch often has the largest share of "alpha" status but defers to her daughter over food and possessions :)

Teri

Thanks for that Teri, i must admit i always get  people asking me which one is the boss as if there must be a clear leader but there really doesn't seem to be one. I wonder if that will change now that i have introduced a bitch pup to the mix. TBH the boys don't seem to be bothered at all about taking the role of leader, they are all very laid back, calm big bears.......just how i like em ;-)

I agree totally in the house when feeding JAke the Border Collie is no 1, outside my Cocker is the boss.  My two are 13 months cocker and 12 months Border, started the cocker at home first as we knew he would be smaller when grown but that has not stopped him. He can bring the Border to size by going for his more delicate appendages that he is closer too.