Hi, I have a 5mth old Akita X English Mastiff puppy, he is fed beta large breed puppy food with cooked tripe. His sire and damn are both very large dogs, both around 30inches. I've heard that you should switch to adult food as large breeds of dogs may grow too fast if you continue to feed them puppy food? Has anyone got any advice please?

hi
you should have him on a high quality large or even giant breed puppy food + look to swap him onto again high quality large/giant breed adult food at usually at about 18 months depending on his size
sometimes this can vary on diet + size of dog between 12 months + 24 months
by using a high quality large/giant breed diet it should help him to grow at a good steady pace allowing his bones + joints to form properly

Hi thanks for your advice 'Pottydog'.  Would you say Beta doesn't fit the 'High quality dog food catagory'? That's what his breeder was feeding him so I wanted to stick to it. Kind regards :-)

Hi,

I do not know Beta so will not comment the quality of it, I'm sure somebody else will come and tell you if it is good or not so good food...
If the food you are feeding is LARGE/GIANT puppy food it should be ok as it is formulated so that it will not be "too strong" and make him grow too fast...
If the puppy is growing nicely and evenly I would not worry too much.

I have a Leo so probably similar size to your puppy, When she was that age we would weight her weekly and try to keep the growth to 1.5kg a week.
Some weeks she would put on little bit more some weeks little bit less...If she put on more we would be more carefull with the amount of food she would get the following week...

Thanks for your help Noora, I will have to invest in some doggy scales I think or maybe take regular trips to the vets :-) He is already 5stone + !!!

i havnt used beta and dont know anyone with large breed dogs that have used it so i dont know how good it is
personally i have always used royal canin for my pups + they have always done really well on it + they do a really good range depending on size + age of pup
if you do change your food at all just worth bearing it mind to change it gradually over a period of at least a week to allow pups digestion to adjust
good luck with your pup - sounds like gonna be a big beasty! :)

>Would you say Beta doesn't fit the 'High quality dog food catagory'?

Hi Howarth,
Not pottydog,but No Beta definitely does not fit into the 'High quality dog food category'

Have a look at the dog food website zooplus,check out the brands:

Orijen
Timberwolf
Solid Gold

http://www.zooplus.co.uk

And compare the ingredients to Beta,the above are truly High quality foods.Zooplus has plenty of nice products.

hi i had Rotties for 20yrs and i found Burns was the best food for them, they grew well and had good stomachs/coats , the food is very digestible as it is made with meat/rice with no wheat added, good luck with the pup, establish pack leader as early as you can Akitas have a temperament similar to Rotts although Mastiffs are more placid, i bet he is gorgeous to look at though all huge and gangly.

My Akita and Rotts are all fed Arden Grange, they have the puppy/junior large breed food until they are 12mths then swap onto adult.  Obviously Mastiffs are a larger breed so you might want to wait a bit longer before swapping them over.

I would have to disagree with the Akita's having similar temperaments to the Rotts as I find them completely different.  My Rotts have all been alot more laid back than the Akita's. 

Socialise, socialise and socialise even more! Akita's are not the best tempered breed with other dogs but when you have a cross you never know who they'll take after more.

Good luck with your pup!

A Mastiff is a GIANT breed, not a large breed. People with experience in such giant breeds will tell you to stay away from large breed puppy food, the protien content is far too high and cause many problems with bone growth etc... They allready grow at an asthonishing rate, high protien encourages growth and causes strain & damage to the allready stressed joints.

I have personlay had a bad experience of feeding a diet too high in protien. My pup developed week pasterns to the point he was nearly flat footed, his front feet had started to turn out and his ligaments had grown too quicky resulting in him being very weak walking and having problems being able to get up from being laid down.

The vet & a othapedic specialist both told me that the only way to sort out the problems with my pups feet was for him to have surgery, in which they would cut the bottom part of bones off above the wrists and re-align them - the pups breeder disagreed.
After opting out of the surgery & changing from the vets advice to feed the large breed puppy food  & instead take the advice of the pups breeder (over 30 years experience in breedings & showing Mastiffs & Danes), I switched the pup to a lower protien food = beta puppy/junior with plain terrier mixer and tripe. The breeder told me I should be feeding my Mastiff pup 18% protien per day. After only 4 weeks of doing this his pasterns startded to rise, after another 2 weeks he is a totally different dog, he can get up from being laid down as easy as a small dog (he's 28" at the shoulder and weighs over 8 stone at  8 months old), he can walk properly now and his pasterns are so much betterc and his feet aren't as turned out anymore!!!!! If I had listened to the vet & specialist, my poor pup would have undergone a very painfull opperation, with a dibilitating recovery period to fix a growth problem that was helped in a few weeks by a change in diet.

http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm  skeletal probs in giant breed dogs

http://grunfeldshepherd.com/articles/lanting/carpal-subluxation-and-weak-pasterns-two%20different-conditions.html  covers the efect of protien in regard to weak pasterns (carpal-subluxation).

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/1239/6-9months.html  advice on feeding a mastiff & when to change to adult food

In regard to weather Beta is a quality food, it is really down to personal choice. I was feeding my pup a 'high quality food' it resulted in the above mentioned problems. Since changing him to Beta he has also improved in other ways, his coat has improves, it is softer with a lovely sheen to it, the flaky skin he used to have is gone, his disgustingly smelly 'wind' is now a lot kinder on the nose and he has more 'balanced' energy throughout the day (he used to be very lethargic until he had eaten). I personaly swear by Beta, but I know of experienced 'Mastiff people' who don't. What works for you & your dog, IMO has to be the 'best' food.

The large breed puppy foods are designed for large and giant breeds with adjusted vitamin and mineral levels and REDUCED protein levels to give slower steadier growth.

Beta puppy/junior large breed has a protien content of 29% this is too high for a growing Mastiff and is the SAME protein level as thier other puppy foods. The adult large breed has a protein level of 26%. So in fact the puppy version has an INCREASED amount of protein.

Arden grange large breed puppy food has 32% protein when thier standard puppy food has 29% protien - again an INCREASED protein level.

These figures are much the same for most dogs foods, unfortunately not all of the places that sell this food online actually give the nutritional breakdown, they just tell you that is has 'reduced protein'. Pet food manufacturers are not made to follow the same strict wording rules that human food manufacturers have to follow. So they can say 'reduced protein' without having to qualify the claim with any facts.

I don't know about Beta But you are incorrect about Arden Grange.

The large breed puppy: http://www.ardengrange.com/Pet-Food/dog-food.asp?id=3

Typical Analysis

Protein 26%, Oil 16%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega 6 3.8%, Omega 3 0.69%, Vitamin A 20000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1350 IU/kg, Vitamin E 135 IU/kg, Calcium 1.4%, Phosphorous P 0.95%, Copper 22 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).

this is similar to the adutl food but the calcium and vitamin levels are different.

The puppy weaning food is 32% (I don't use it, I use the puppy food and goats milk based puppy milk) but is only for the weaning stage up to 6 to 8 weeks.

I got that one totally round my neck didn't I?!!!!!!
You're right, I mis-qouted the arden grange protien level (that's thanks to me surfing the web at high speeds). the Beta is spot on though - I checked that one too.

It doesn't make the protein levels any better for a growing giant breed puppy, they sould be around 22%, (my pup is on 18% protein as a corrective measure).

Here is another link stating the importance of low protein levels, the autor is experienced with giant breeds & has a nutritional background and advocates feeding adult food throughout puppyhood -

http://209.217.212.84/nutrition_page.shtml

Most foods for large/giant breeds have too much protien, regardless of the fact they are saying they have reduced the protein levels so as to not force the rapid growth. Infact, after 2 months of searching I have found only 2 foods that come anywhere near to optimum, and they are at 24% protein (and that is the higher end of optimum).

Mastifflover you seem to be really hung up on the Protein levels,when infact it has been proven that the calcium(and phosphorus) levels are much more important to pay attention to. I would say most of the protein found in Beta is of the indigestible sort anyway.You cant have an ingredient list like that and expect bioavailable ingredients.
I had so many articles about this very subject in my favourites,but lost the lot :(

Have you looked at the great dane lady's website? http://www.greatdanelady.com

Here's another link http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/puppy-protein/

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsindex.php

To be honest when you do a dry matter comparison between a dogs natural diet and completes the completes are all low in protein by a dry matter comparison. 

I wouldn't feed any of mine on a diet lower than the 26% protein.  They eat less of it anyway than the lower protein fat diets, so the number of grams of each they get a day will I expect be similar without their digestive systems having to work so hard to remove the crap, literally.

I agree it is the vitamin and mineral levels and balances that are important in completes, and why in the higher end foods the levels are higher because the amount to be fed will be lower.

I'm not comparing complete to a natural diet, no large breed puppy food makes the claim that it's protein level is reduced compared to a dogs natural diet.

I don't know the protein level of a natural diet, but I know the protein level of tripe is approx 15% & that is a natural food - much lower than 26% for complete food (wet or dry doesn't make a difference as the feeding guidlines are for dry food, so if you feed 100g of dry @ 26% protein *, then soak it, the dog will be consuming 26g protein) - *26% of 100g is 26g

I can understnad you not feeding your dogs less than 26% protein, but they are not a giant breed, and as far as anybody experienced in the breeding & raising of giant breed is concerned, 26 % protein is too high.

The bigger the dog the lower it's energy requirements are, protein being a major source of energy. The basal metabolic rate (basic energy requirement/expenditure)is related to total body surface area (somthing to do with heat loss), the bigger the dog the lower the ratio of suface area to body weight. Excess protein, as well as adding to already rapid growth & causing growth problems, is  degraded & excreted by the kidneys, putting axtra strain on them too.

Giant breeds have very different nutritional requirements than smaller breeds dogs, if growth is encouraged in any way by too much protein, calories or excess minerals it can be very damaging.

The dog food companies actualy lower the levels of phosphorous & calcium (for bone growth), so they are trying :) Beta puppy large breed has a higher calcium & phosphorous content than thier standard puppy food as does arden grange.

All the advice I have given is in relation to giant breeds, from my own bad experience and from extensive research via experienced breeders. It is not relevant to any other sized breed including breeds classed as large. I am not trying to 'convert' anybody I am simply conveying breed specific advice.

Often the first sign of too quick growth or giant puppy carrying too much weight, is that their front legs start turning out...

Best way to check for this is to lift the front of the standing pup up off the floor slightly and look at the line the front legs make, you will be able to see if the leg is straight. Or if you look at the front legs of the pup when he is lying down (head between the front paws way) you will be able to see the natural line of the foot and if it is straight.
If you check your pups front legs and they are not nice and straight you should look into his feeding.

Not saying this is the only sign but it is an easy to see sign that can be a pointer of incorrect or unsuitable food.
Not all puppies grow in the same way even if they are all fed the same food, so you really need to keep an eye on your puppy's growth even if he is on a food others have had good results.

Something to really keep your eye on as well is the weight of the puppy, rather little lean pup than too heavy, as growing joints do not need extra pressure from extra weight puppy might be carrying.

I'm no expert tho, have bought up 3 giants myself, failed miserable with the feeding of the first one and was extra paranoid with the growth/feeding of the next two :)

The analysis of the food I and many others have used and been happy with (for Leos):
Crude Protein:26.0%, Crude Oil:14.0%, Crude Ash:6.0%, Crude Fibre:2.5%, Moisture:8.0%, Calcium:0.80%, Phosphorus P:0.65%

I would not go any higher with Protein, just in case,as it has been said too high protein can cause problems with giants.
So I see sense in what Mastifflover writes as protein levels are something giant breed breeders/ownsr should keep an eye on(if nothing else)

Might go for a lower protein food but so far we have been happy with what we feed so have seen no need.

I had problems with one of my mastiffs going down on his pasterns and having splayed feet but he was a very chunkyv puppy. Not too overweight just had a huge amount of bone and was a very big puppy. Alot of people did recommend cutting right back on his protein, I can't say if this worked or not as I also swam him at the local hydrotherapy pool to strengthen his pasterns did lots of road walking and just about everything else that is suggested so not sure if it worked or not!!

I have fed all my puppies large breed puppy food and apart from that one have never had a problem with any of the others(touch wood!!). I do tend to keep them on the lean side and not let them get too heavy as puppies.

Everybody has different points of view, I know when I had problems everybody told me something different. I do think though that every dog is different as I have never had a problem with the diet I feed apart from that one dog and who's to say it was the diet? I try not to feed too high protein levels as has already been said and stick around the 26% mark.

> I don't know the protein level of a natural diet, but I know the protein level of tripe is approx 15% & that is a natural food - much lower than 26% for complete food (wet or dry doesn't make a difference as the feeding guidlines are for dry food, so if you feed 100g of dry @ 26% protein *, then soak it, the dog will be consuming 26g protein) - *26% of 100g is 26g
>

You have to compare like with like.

Tripe will be some 80% water compared to only 10% for a dry food, so you have to compare the dry matter of one with the other, so in fact the tripe will be something like 4 times the  protein when you reduce it to dry weight.

Even if you take meat on the bone into account you will still find the dry matter much higher in protein than a dry complete food.

You will be feeding say a pound of tripe compared to 250g of complete so tripe 15g of protein times 5 gives 75g of protein, 250g of dry at 26% gives you 65g of protein.

I gave the protein level for tripe as approx 15%, I've checked the pack & it's 13% protein  http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/products/freeflowmincedmeats/tripe.php tripe from 'natures menue' is even less with a protein level of 9.3%

1lb/450g of tripe (@13%) =  58.5g protein  or  (@9.3%) = 41.9g
250g complete   (@26%) = 65g protein

I still don't see why you need to take into account the protein level of a natural food when it is dry, because it is fed with it's original water content,  eg. you would feed 100g of natural tripe (including it's 72% water content), not 100g of desicated tripe.

the reason you need to reduce it for comparison is that you feed much more wet food than dry, so it may seem the dry is higher in protein etc, but your feeding it in a concentrated form minus the water.

As I have never fed wet food alone I am only guessing how much tripe equals how much dry.

Certainly I remember a friend telling me she fed a pound and a half of tripe/meat where she  Would feed 12 ounces of complete.

I think you will find that whether they are fed wet or dry they will eat about the same grammes of protein fat etc on similar quality of food, but be short of nutrients if fed the lower protein completes compared to natural feeding, or wet food.

I get what your saying - the weight of protein eaten will vary on the qnty of the food fed regardless of the percentage of protein.

I feed tripe with complete and mixer biscuit (11% protein) with a ratio of 4:2:1 . so the protien percentage of the combined meal is reduced.

eg: 400g tripe/52g protein + 200g mixer/22g protein + 200g complete/52 g protein = protein content for 700g is 126g/18%  he has abpprox 1400g per day = 252g protein/18%

if feeding complete only, it would be approx 1100g complete per day = 286g protein/26%

so allthough the % is much higher, the actual weight of protein isn't dramatically higher. I had never looked at it like that!!!

I still rather stick to the advice I have been given and keep the % of protein fed in the low 20s (18% for Buster is to help the weak pasterns). I will never again feed a giant mastiff pup a diet of complete only. I swear by tripe. There is no scientific evidence to back up all the experienced breeders claims that tripe is the food to be feeding a Mastiff (in conjuction with plain buscuit or complete). I would never again feed any where near 26% protein. There are studies to show that protein levels over 24% will cause problems, there all also studies to show that up to 32% causes no problems (thses studies also show a giant breed pup needs 15% protein and can thrive on that, they concluded a recomendation of feeding between 15% & 32%).

But, 2 people have posted here, with giant breeds, they feed large puppy food with 26% protien with no problems and have done so repeatedly, they would not be willing to change a successful diet because other people think differently. This also goes the other way, plenty of people would never feed a complete puppy food and have thier own valid reasons.

I think this is one of those topics that will never be agreed on, everybody has thier owns views and there own reasons for believing what they do. The only thing we can all do is gather as much info as poss and make our own minds up.

Just to make it clear, the fact that I disagree with feeding a large breed puppy food, doesn't mean I don't respect the choice of those that do - I just disagree, if that makes sense??

Mastifflover,i've sent you a pm.Check your "messages" :)