Dear All,

My Cairn terrier is just about to be looked after by a new dog sitter but she will not accept him unless he has had booster injections.
My dog had his initial injections when we first bought him at 3 months old. He had a booster after so many weeks but nothing since and he is now 4 years old and a very healthy little dog. I am very unsure/unhappy about having drugs pumped into him unnecessarily, what are other peoples views on this subject? He has also been chipped.

A

If she's to be looking after him with other dogs then up-to-date vaccinations could well be an insurance requirement, like with boarding kennels. If she'll be coming to your house to look after him, then I can't see why vaccinations should be required.

I have my dogs boostered against lepto every year, and DHP bi-annually, and have never had a problem.

I know we massively over-vaccinate in this country, but I just don't get why someone would simply not have vaccinations done without checking their dog is immune? To save money?

If you don't want to vaccinate your dog without needing too, if you ask your dog sitter, she may accept proof of immunity in place of a vaccination card.

I have just had my girls Titre results through, and she is still immune so doesn't need vaccinating. She is 2 1/2 and has only had her puppy vaccs. I haven't had her tested for Lepto, but after much research and thought about it, I have decided I am not going to vaccinate her for lepto anyway. There are plenty of reason, and al of them involve the well being of my girl.

Speaking of titre testing can anyone let me know if there are any vets around Leeds (Yorks, not Kent) that do it?

PM if you like.

My friends dog has just been diagnosed with Parvo even though she has had yearly boosters so I guess it shows that even though a dog is vaccinated it doesn't mean that it has taken.

>Speaking of titre testing can anyone let me know if there are any vets around Leeds (Yorks, not Kent) that do it?

Any vet can take the blood sample but as far as I know it all has to be sent to Glasgow for testing.

Sorry - rather ones that will do the vaccines as a spilt rather than combined (not making myself clear here!).

Have you tried Tower Wood Veterinary Group on Tinshill Road, Leeds?

PS, single Parvo and Lepto can easily be obtained, but single distemper, PI and Adeno was impossible to get hold off in the UK around 6 months ago.  Don't know if things have changed now.

>I know we massively over-vaccinate in this country, but I just don't get why someone would simply not have vaccinations done without checking their dog is immune? To save money?

Most likely because they don't want their dog bombarded by so much vac. 

Low antibodies on a titre does not mean a dog is not immune but many will take that to mean a vac is required.  

There is nothing scientific about a Titre Test showing a dog has x amount of antibodies measured at a specific point in time and that means he is immune. 

The titre was never designed to be used that way.  The test itself is best used as a measurement of the immune response, meaning a good immune response, 4-fold or more measured by titre can be taken to indicate good memory cell stimulation and that represents a reasonable measure of immunity for that dog which may last many, many years.  It's the memory cells that determine immunity.

Regardless of that, if you don't titre test at all, an don't vaccinate, you are 'shooting in the dark' so to speak, and not only risking your dog contracting a life threatening virus, but also contributing to lowered herd immunity. (in very basic terms)

Plenty of people don't vaccinate their dogs simply because they can't be bothered. That is the wrong reason.

I remember one girl I knew wiho wouldnt vaccinate her dog. A friend told her that its a bit like the the childhood illnesses that you dont see around (as much) these days, its only because the rest of us mums have vaccinated our kids that has helped to keep the unvaccinated children less at risk. She said the sames goes with those of us that vaccinate, we keep the place safe for the unvaccinated, if non of us had vaccinated we would be have lots more dead dogs from parvo etc. etc.???????????????

> Regardless of that, if you don't titre test at all, an don't vaccinate, you are 'shooting in the dark' so to speak, and not only risking your dog contracting a life threatening virus, but also contributing to lowered herd immunity. (in very basic terms)
>
> Plenty of people don't vaccinate their dogs simply because they can't be bothered. That is the wrong reason.

I second that.

>we keep the place safe for the unvaccinated, if non of us had vaccinated we would be have lots more dead dogs from parvo etc. etc.???????????????

Absolutely right. It's called 'herd immunity', and it makes it much more difficult for diseases to spread. When the level of immunity in the general population falls below a certain level you get epidemics.

In response to Jackson..

I agree, and would never advocate not vac or testing at all. 

However a dog that has had his initial injections by 3 months old and had another booster after so many weeks and is now 4 years old **should** have had a good memory cell stimulation. 

Some people may use a titre to determine the immune response and on the results may go for many years without vac or retitering.  That doesn't mean their dog is not immune or that they are shooting in the dark.  It's a calculated risk and reaching a balance by maintaining immunity without over-vac.  

Sure there are some that may not be bothered either way, some who vac to the recommendations, some who believe that puppy vacs suffice, some titre and some who use homeopathic alternatives, etc, etc 

In response to jackson:

. I haven't had her tested for Lepto, but after much research and thought about it, I have decided I am not going to vaccinate her for lepto anyway. There are plenty of reason, and al of them involve the well being of my girl.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought lepto was the vac that doesn't last more than a year, if so what are the reasons for not vaccinating for it, given the increasing number of rats around.

Cocopop,

Lepto is thought to not even last for a year, it is thought to be 3-6 months, maybe more in some dogs. So if you have your booster every 12 months, your dog might not be protected for 9 months of that, and yet doesn't get Lepto and die. Lepto is also the vaccine most likely to cause problems, and my breed is one which is mor elikely to be affected by vaccs adversely than other breeds, according to evidence.

I also don't believe that Lepto is as prevalent or dangerous as some vets would have us believe. In studies on stray dogs, which were unvaccinated, blood tests showed that approx 25% of those dogs had previously had lepto but survived.

Rats might be increasing, but rats are never that far away from us anyway. Also, I walk my dog in what would be considered 'high risk' areas for Lepto and so far she has been fine. That might just be luck, but I personally think it is due to lower risks than vacc companies would have us believe. Have you ever asked your vet when they last saw a fatal case of Lepto? It doesn't happen often at all.

The trouble is, there is very little evidence and no solid clinical research, After all, who's going to pay for that? Vaccine manufacturers?

jackson

my breed is one which is mor elikely to be affected by vaccs adversely than other breeds, according to evidence.

I have the same breed as you, so will look into that.

Last year when we took one of ours for vaccs our vet had actually had a fatal case of lepto that week.

I had a crossbreed which only ever had her puppy vaccs and was healthy till she was pts aged 17, so I can see where you're coming from.

I just wondered if you had any concrete evidence that the lepto vac was dangerous.

Just off now for school run, but will post more later.

If you search for 'canine health concern' you should get to the canine health concern site and there are some case studies on there. Also some basic info on Lepto.

just back from school! thanks for that :-)

>Have you ever asked your vet when they last saw a fatal case of Lepto?

A few weeks ago in my area. It's still around and, of course, an infected dog can infect its owner.

When I discussed titre testing with our vet  recently, he said he would do it but didn't recommend it as you then have to question 'how often' to test, every month? three months? six months?..... He vaccinates his own dogs fully as puppies then will give boosters according to any local outbreaks of illness. He said I can ring any time to see what's going on in our area. He also has clients who use homeopathic vaccines.
I asked him about lepto and he said he's never seen a case in dogs but a friend of his caught it!
He also said that he treated a dog with parvo virus recently, who was very poorly ,and he had been fully vaccinated.
He is willing to give single vaccines where possible.
So I can't really ask for more! We do take a calculated risk in this situation, but it's nice to do it with a bit of guidance!

Yes lepto is still around but vaccinating doesn't necessarily protect either.
My friends dog died of lepto last August, and had a yearly booster proving that it doesn't work.   I also know that the servars used in the lepto vaccine are not the ones found in the UK so the lepto vaccine offers little or no protection.  And as someone else said on this thread it is the most dangerous of all vaccines apart from rabies.

> Regardless of that, if you don't titre test at all, an don't vaccinate, you are 'shooting in the dark' so to speak, and not only risking your dog contracting a life threatening virus, but also contributing to lowered herd immunity. (in very basic terms)
>
> Plenty of people don't vaccinate their dogs simply because they can't be bothered. That is the wrong reason.

As someone who had a dog die from the reaction to it's lepto booster within 3 hours of being injected I will never booster vaccinate my dogs(except for the rabies vax for their Pet Passports)Jean Dodds doesn't recommend yearly boosters & I believe she has an indepth knowledge of reactions to vaccinations & canine immune system far better than anyone on this forum.

I do titre test before I have the puppy vax done(didn't have Wukee done as his brother was tested in the Netherlands & needed vaxing so saved me the cost of the titire test & bloods)He's been done since & has full imunity

His next test will be at a year old & after that will fall in line with my other dogs.

As a point of interest I did have a BC who never needed vaxing at all & he came from unvax'ed parents, he never caught any life threatening diseases despite there being a couple of local outbreaks, even when a plonker brought a dog with Kennel Cough to the club he was not affected, whereas the only dog that I had that had had the KC vax(done by his breeder)had a very bad time with it & they were never apart

No one I know that doesn't vax their dogs doesn't do it because they cannot be bothered

Moonmaiden, I am not sure if you're missing what I am saying, or I am missing what you're saying, but it seems to me that we are agreeing with each other. :-)

Jean Dodds reccomends yearly titres. Not just to forget all about vaccinating or testing for anti bodies.

The point you mention is interesting and one that supports that the diseases are out there (dogs wouldn't become immune if they had never been in contact with them) and that some dogs are able to develop sufficient immunity themselves, probably which is far better than immunity developed after vaccination.

I am very sorry that you lost your dog after the lepto booster. Lepto is thought to be the one most likely to cause adverse reactions, as I stated in my post above.

Having said all that, at the end of the day, whatever experiences or beliefs people have, there is still no clinical reasearch to prove any of it. But what I do know about it is enough to make me nevr vaccinate my dog at least for lepto, and we'll deal with the other vaccs if the need arises.

You're very lucky that you know dog owners who aren't idiotas. I come across many of them in the pet owning general public. I know of people who really haven't a clue and don't spay their bitches simply because it costs £180, then complain about them being in season as it is inconvenient. They don't even know what pyometra is, let alone how to spot it, so their poor bitches are being massively put at risk. I know people who have no evidence or research either way, but simply don't vaccinate as 'they don't need it' or 'mongrels don't get ill, that's just pedigree dogs'. Or maybe even that they'd like to spend the £30 on drinking in the pub instead. They are the same people who think nothing of leaving their dogs all day, then wonder whyt hey bark all the time. They shouldn't be allowed dogs, and they make my blood boil.

In response to JG...

Leptospira are not rare, they are around, mainly in stagnant water infected with urine; cattle drinking water is risky for example.  However, they have a poor survivability rate so it's not an 'easy' disease to get.  Can be very nasty thou

It's a pity they don't say which serovars in that article.

From what I understand, the Lepto vac may protect against clinical disease but does not prevent sub clinical infection to a 'carrier' state. 

There are hundreds of serovars; at my last count 8 have been known to affect dogs and only protection against 2 in the vac and they do not provide cross immunity to other serovars.

So it may be that the potential reactions to lepto vaccination outweigh the benefits?  I do understand that it is a nasty disease but if there are so many variants then is it more likely that a dog will catch one of the strains not vaccinated against?  I have no idea - just asking for opinions.

No-one can tell you what to and what not to vaccinate your dogs against. It is a case of you doing the research yourself and making your own decision.

Although there are upwards of 50 serovars, dogs have only been known to contract about 10 of them. As spencer says, the lepto vaccine in the UK only covers 2 of those, so your dog is still at risk of at least 8 plus serovars. (Strains, in basic terms) Also, if you take into account that a high percentage of dogs that are vaccinated won't even be covered for around 6 months of the 12, on average and even the vet quoted in the link to the outbreak article states he has usually sees one case a year (I actually also wonder how much of an 'outbreak' it is, have there been any other deaths reported?) then to me it seems fairly unlikely that your dog would contract lepto and die despite not being vaccinated. However, risks from over-vaccination, particularly lepto are fairly high, and seem to be increasing all the time for some reason. But that is just my personal opinion, based on what I have read.

Hi,
After a puppies initial 8 and 10 week jabs, they should have a yearly booster until about 8.
Many kennels and dogs sitters in my area insist on the normal 12 month boosters and Kennel cough vacs.
They will not take a dog unless you give them the certificates for the duration of the dogs say.
I have to add my dogs luckly do not ever go in kennels and are treated homeopathically. :-)

Chrisy, what make you think that about the jabs at 8 and 10 weeks, then yearly until 8? My own vet, who strongly advocate vaccinating, won't do any puppy jabs before 9 weeks.

Also, my own dog was vaccinated at 10 and 12 weeks, and titre testing has shown she has needed no further vaccinations since and she shoudl have had 2 booster traditionall, as she is 2 1/2.

I'd also be interested to know if there's any evidence to show homeopathy works in thsi situation?

Chrisy as jackson says, 8 and 10 weeks for vaccination is far too young, maternal antibodies will still be around at this time.  Also yearly boosters are NOT necessary, once a dog has immunity this can last for life.  Humans do not get boostered every year, once we have immunity to the really bad diseases we stay immune, so do dogs!

Jackson, regarding nosodes, my dogs have had to go into kennels and I have found a kennel that accepts nosodes as long as these are administered by a vet, this I've done for both my dogs.  This particular kennel would also accept high titres, but unfortunately one of my dogs titres was low for parvo and I couldn't find a vet locally who would vaccinate for parvo only unless I purchased a whole box of vaccinations!  This did me a favour though as I then looked into nosodes and I'm happier with those and my boys are healthy.

I mentioned above a friends dog died of lepto after being vaccinated each year and a family members dog died after being vaccinated and it was lepto that was pinpointed, so I am extra careful with my dogs.  Although we can never be 100% sure we can only do what we believe is best to keep them safe and healthy.

Moonmaiden,

I'm sorry to hear that your dog died after the lepto vac.

Would you mind telling me what the symptoms wre before he/she died. We had a pup who died on the same day as it's second vaccination, at the time we thought it was something she had eaten, now I'm not so sure.

Scamp appeared to be having a mega allergic reaction, it started with him having difficulty breathing, the site of the injection swelled up, he then collapsed & rushed into the vets intensive care area(he was already at the vets), the vet did not realise that it was not an allergic reaction, but a massive reaction by his immune system to the Lepto Vax(they could have done nothing to stop it anyway), all his organs started to shut down & he was dead with three hours, he never left the vets.

I wasn't with him as he was my parent's dog, but my vet told me afterwards exactly what had happened. I had begged them not to have Lepto vax but they went with the vets advice,which cost Scamp his life.

Thanks for that.:-(

'No one I know that doesn't vax their dogs doesn't do it because they cannot be bothered'

Well said - as usual MM :)

I have had severe vaccinosis in both of my dogs when they were Pups. Search my name on here for posts and you can see just some of the effects!

I'm not going into the rights or wrongs of vaccinating - that is a personal choice.

I have yearly Titre testing done and taken the advice given from a senior Vet in Glasgow, my dogs are showing a good immune response presently. I still give them homeopathic nosodes as an immunity booster. As a side issue, the rules and governing body has changed/or is about to regarding Homeopathic nosodes.

Suffice to say that I will never again have any of my present dogs or future pups automatically Vaccinated because 'that is what Vets recommend!' I will continue to follow the route that I have followed and it's certainly NOT through 'expense worry' or 'apathy'!

'No one I know that doesn't vax their dogs doesn't do it because they cannot be bothered'

Well said - as usual MM 

And as I said above:

You're very lucky that you know dog owners who aren't idiotas. I come across many of them in the pet owning general public. I know of people who really haven't a clue and don't spay their bitches simply because it costs £180, then complain about them being in season as it is inconvenient. They don't even know what pyometra is, let alone how to spot it, so their poor bitches are being massively put at risk. I know people who have no evidence or research either way, but simply don't vaccinate as 'they don't need it' or 'mongrels don't get ill, that's just pedigree dogs'. Or maybe even that they'd like to spend the £30 on drinking in the pub instead. They are the same people who think nothing of leaving their dogs all day, then wonder whyt hey bark all the time. They shouldn't be allowed dogs, and they make my blood boil.

There is a massive difference between just not vaccinating and not vaccinating because a titre test shows your dog doesn't need vaccinating. It is simply not good enough for people to not vaccinate their dog without titre testing.

Some dogs CANNOT have the vaccinations for whatever reason, a proven reason in their specific case. So if people go around not vaccinating, not titre testing and having dogs which are not immune, and it eventually becomes a lot of people that do this, then the herd immuntiy is lowered and the diseases become more prevalent. And don'# forget, vaccinated dogs can get the diseases too.

I fully understand what you are saying Jackson :)

I'm only talking from my own personal view. I do know owners who are very naive shall we say, when it comes to vaccination, but unfortunately I have learned that nothing I say, or do - including presenting positive paper proof -  will change their minds. Alas, Titre testing will only ever be of interest to the select few who actually care about the whole subject and of course - their dogs. There is nothing we can do to change that.

I have never lost sight of the fact that vaccinated dogs can fall prey to deseases, I know of at least 3 examples where this has happened. There is also the scenario of the recently vaccinated pup or dog that 'drops' the desease shortly after being vaccinated, thus spreading it to other immunised/un-immunised community of dogs.  It's a fact of life that we have to accept and we can only do what we honestly believe is the best :)

Hi,
I am very sorry to hear both a friend and a family member have lost dogs following vaccinations.
I have been very lucky in twenty years I have never had a problem.

I don't know what area you are in, but here 99% kennels will not allow dogs unless their boosters are up to date and they have had kennel cough. Here we seem to get kennel cough every year!!!! Also some insurance companies insist!!!!!
The puppies get antibodies from the mum in the colestram, which only last a couple of days, but this does not last long, they are at their lowest at 6 weeks, hence new owners should take extra care until vaccinations are complete. The vaccinations as in humans do not prevent a disease, but helps your body build up an immune system to fight diseases. Again in this area it is usual for vets to inject at 8 and 10 weeks, only then can the puppy go outside. Here just like children they are jabbed routinely, I am not saying it's right, just that it seems the norm here.  If a puppy of 6-8 weeks gets kennel cough or parvo, it is extremely serious.

I guess injections are a very tricky area, kennels and passports insist they are done regularly.

We can only do what we think is right. Luckly my dogs do not go into kennels, and they are all treated homeopatically.

The puppies get antibodies from the mum in the colestram, which only last a couple of days, but this does not last long, they are at their lowest at 6 weeks,

Where did you get that info from? Antibodies from Mum are thought to last at least 12 weeks, and up to 16,  hence the reason the more informed vets are now suggesting second puppy vaccs at 12 weeks or after.

Most informed vets will now tell you that it is actually Ok to allow your puppy on the ground in 'safer' areas prior to their second vacc too. Places like the beach, areas where other dogs aren't walked etc and that doing so actually helps build far better immunity than any vaccination.

Kennels will increasingly accept titre test results instead of up to ate vaccinations, but that doesn't apply to me as I'd rather cut my arm off with a spoon than put my girl into kennels.

> I guess injections are a very tricky area, kennels and passports insist they are done regularly

Regularly does not mean annually though.  Only Lepto needs to be done each year, and as it is such an ineffective and problem causing vaccine I don't anymore, just give it every third year like the others.

Re boosters a booster is a booster and no dog no matter how long since it's last jabs needs a course, just a booster.  This is the info from the Intervet rep at a seminar I attended.  A course is appropriate if a dogs vaccination history is unknown and it may not have been done at all, but on the other hand a dog over 12 weeks needs only one jab to stimulate immunity,a nd the only reason they get two is to try and ensure that maternal immunity did not interfere with the first one taking.

Maternal immunity especially in pups who have constant contact with their dam until they leave home are likely to have longer maternal immunity and I prefer to vaccinate later and finish the course at 12 weeks.

Maternal anitbodies don't wane until after 12 weeks, so earlier vaccination is wasted.

When I had my dogs titre tested the lab that did the titre wouldn't test for lepto and wrote on the report that it wasn't necessary to vaccinate as it was highly unlikely to be a problem in kennels.  Unfortunately as I said above the titre for parvo was low, so we had to go down the route of nosodes.

I doubt that the percentage of dogs getting yearly boosters is really high enough to generate a significant herd immunity - we've seen measles outbreaks because the vaccination rate has fallen to 80 odd percent - I can't imagine that more than 50% of dogs get boosters.