Penny Compton.......because one of my puppy owners has decided to go to her for training. Have to say Im not happy having seen her website.....she teaches linedancing with dogs and tricks etc :(
The fact that they want to go to obedience with their hound concerns me....but anyway thats another mater & I basically just wondered if anyone has any 1st hand experience of this woman? Shes in somerset i believe.

Why is any of this in issue = I think any dog owner who chooses to train their dog should be commended :)

Seems a bizarre response Sam to your new puppy owner wanting to go to puppy classes? A quick look at her website doesn't give me any cause for concern, and it also says she breeds whippets herself, so will be very familiar with hound mentality :-)

I'm sure the pups owner is not wanting to do competitive obedience with their bloodhound but surely trainign and socialisation are to be encouraged?

pack /scent hounds as primitive as mine, dont fair well in obedience and i have yet to meet any commercial trainer who is able to cope with the breeds mentalilty...they all seem to want to train them like GSD or collies :( if they were having some sort of problem id rather they came to me 1st. if they wanted to to obedience then i would have suggested another breed....if they were insistent then I can recommend a true(scent)hound person who is very good and understands the mind set. the fact that this one does line dancing etc really rings major warning bells to me.

They want to do obedience with the dog... Maybe they like the challenge :)!

Obviously we don't know exactly what they've said to you to cause concern, but taking any breed of dog to puppy classes or beginners obedience shouldn't worry anybody. Even hounds have to learn not to pull on the lead and to be sociable around other dogs. I'm guessing if she breeds whippets she won't be expecting collie like responses from everything :-)

The one reference to line dancing I saw on her website looks like a fun thing, sometimes trainers have to be inventive to keep the owners interested.

Sam,I think you might be being a little unfair to your breed there!
I have two afghans. As you say, hounds are difficult to train, sighthounds as much as scenthounds. I faced people who like you claimed that "ordinary" training was not suitable for them. well.......... HAHAHAHAHA!  training is about having a perceptive and positive owner and trainer. I have trained Zorro to Bronze standard ( class changed day or would have stayed longer). Delilah is trained to GOLD KC good citizen. My trainer trained collies to obedience championship standard and has won obedience at crufts....but she takes each dog on its own merit, and NEVER judges a dog prior to actually training it. She also is able to see each individual dogs needs.
I feel that you should be proud that your pup is in the hands of someone who cares enough to train them, and who is positive enough to have a go. I too have looked at the website, and do not feel there is anything to worry about. You seem to be pretty much predjudiced about the "line dancing" part of things, and I think you are letting that cloud your judgement. line dancing isnt my cup of tea but it doesnt ring big warning bells in my book!
I am afraid I do feel that you are being a bit unreasonable here. I think you should not make too big a deal of it.

Whats wrong with tricks - it gets the animal more bodily aware. It tones loads of muscles.  Its mental stimulation.  It creates a bond between owner and dog.  It helps the owner know how animals learn.  It brings the dog more intune with the owner and they start to listen more.

Why shouldn't any dog do obedience.  It may not get to a great standard but I believe every dog should be able to be controlled, sociable and have the mental stimulation.  Not everyone is able to do what the dogs are bred for so surely stimulating the dog in some way is better than not at all.

All the best
Anna

> pack /scent hounds as primitive as mine, dont fair well in obedience

i image at least some obedience will rub off though...i'd think it seems like they are trying. and so waht about the line dancing? not exactly my cup of tea either (its all a bit tacky to my mind) but many trainers like different discaplines.

I think that any person who owns a dog of whatever breed should be encouraged to attend training classes, as Tigger2 said basic obedience is a must for all dogs. The socialisation aspect is great and hopefully the puppy will be introduced to other dogs in a controlled environment.

Not really sure what is wrong with a dog learning tricks? I view training tricks as just another element of training - developing a close bond with my dogs enhances lots of areas. I am hoping to do some tracking training with my GR in the not too distant future and he is obviously not a scent hound but I view it as yet another way to develop and strengthen the bond I have with him and also a way to expand on one of the areas that he really enjoys. One of our "tricks" is to hide various items in the house and garden and he has to go and search out the requested article and bring the correct named article back to me. He has huge enthusiasm for this game whereas at our obedience classes, which most GRs seem to excel at, he does all that is requested of him but without any great enthusiasm.

Not sure that I would ever want to do line dancing with my dog as it's not really my type of thing but can see that this form of training might appeal to others and would have thought that any activity would only enhance one's relationship with their dog whatever the breed :)

Just my experience - From having a CKCS that was my first dog, we ended up staying at training classes past the puppy stage and ended up doing agility when she was a year old and it was the best thing we could have done together although we were both completely useless.  We were in a class of 'typical' agility dogs such as collies and other speedy types who picked up all the new skills within nanoseconds - we took weeks and even then Rosie used to try and go under the jumps.  Rosie and I formed such a close bond and even when things went completely pearshaped (nearly all the time) we used to laugh and just carry on.  It was so much fun, created a close bond and was my night out.  We made loads of friends and Rosie was the most sociable dog and loved everyone.

I dont think any breeder should discourage anyone from trying anything training wise with their dog. Ive never done dog line dancing, but I can imagine that the classes are full of laughter and with lots of socialisation as well - surely that cant be bad. After all if great danes can do dancing then any dog has possibilities.

hmmm well we will just have to agree to differ on this one!!
Luckily they  also took some of my advise on training the breed and are training their hound to hunt and hopefully they will be able to get him a permit and compete at trials next year.

It seems so Sam...however I am pretty disappointed that any dog owner or breeder should feel that basic obedience and good citizenship classes would be a bad thing ( and I am pretty sure that I would not be prepared to buy a pup from a breeder with those thoughts)... It may well be, that as you have not done these classes yourself, that you maybe have not quite grasped the concept of the good citizen scheme...which is just to socialise the dogs, and give them basic good manners with people and other dogs. For any novice pup owners reading this post, I would emphasise that these classes are essential in the opinion of the vast majority of those on this board, and in this post.

One small word of warning Sam.....this is no longer your pup. Although it is perfectly laudible to provide support, there is a difference between support and control. If your pups owner takes this dog to obedience, then I would avoid criticising them for it or expressing distaste. If your pups owner decides they do not want to do the things YOU want with the pup, then accept it with good grace.   She can do what she likes with this pup now, and provided there is no mistreatment involved, you should accept that .  If I were your pups owner, and you criticised me for considering basic obedience classes, I might well think that I didnt really want to keep in touch  with you. What I am saying is that if you are not careful you could lose touch with your pup.

I think the average owner would be much better off teaching their dog of any breed, obedience rather than to hunt!  Dancing and teaching tricks keeps things fun and can really enhace a bond between dog and owner - largely because these things are done for fun they are taught by using reward based methods making it fun for dog and handler and often get someone more interested in training.  What path of training they wish to follow with their pup is their choice.  Good citizen awards are a great scheme and should be encouraged.

To hunt with dogs there does have to be some form of obedience otherwise it would be chaos ;-)

I can see where Sam is coming from as she does work hers and trials them but if a pup goes to a predominently pet first home then I suppose going to training is not a bad idea but teaching a BH to dance is perhaps going a bit too far :-)

I would imagine Sam recommends learning to hunt and track because these are such very strong instincts in her breed and, in doing so, will direct the pup's instincts in a purposeful and controlled manner.

I remember watching a programme once about a bloodhound in the USA that had been in so many different homes because of her "destructive" ways. She had eaten her way right through a chair to find a bone that was caught under it and the chap who then took her on for her "last chance " pointed out that all she was in fact doing was what she was bred for - tracking and hunting, but this was not realised by the owners she had lived with throughout her short life. She was eventually sent to an experienced bloodhound trainer to see if he could help her out and she ended up working for one of the police authorities, using her natural instincts in a controlled and effective way, to be used as a police tracker dog.

As I said previously I think all forms of obedience and training should be applauded but can understand that there is a worry that her natural instincts won't be channelled in the right way and could therefore cause problems in the future.

Thats if they dont get into the line dancing in a big way! Whats wrong with a bloodhound doing HTM? Would be lovely to watch hehehe

Sam, could they just want to try something different? Or even any training class is better than none. Surely any class where a puppy of any breed is going to meet up with any other youngsters is a good thing. Let them give it a go, and if it doesn't work out just be there to, well, pick up the pieces.....

We can only advise people, we can't drag them around to our way of thinking ;-) You know your breed better than anyone on here, so we can only try to see where you are coming from.

Any dog can learn tricks, sit, stay and down on command is a trick to a dog! I can't see what is wrong with any dog going to a fun obedience class. My clicker training class also does line dancing occaisionally and was the first one to start off the idea, but that is only a miniscule part of it, and not everyone has to do it. Its just an extra way of practising heelwork, - but not competition style heelwork, just pet dog walking by your side.
I find it very disappointing that in this day and age a breeder would look down on pet dog training and socialisation as any interaction with a pet dog is a good thing. I'm sure they know their limitations of the breed, but some other "primitive" breeds managed to do well in other disciplines so there is no reason why they can't go along and have a go without the scorn?

Also forgot to add, even nosework can be classed as a trick.

What on earth is your problem??

Good on the owners for wanting to do something with their dog!  I'm sure they will find out soon enough that they aren't likely to be winning OB CH at Crufts but, shock horror, maybe having a bit of fun with their dog is what they want?

And what is wrong with  "line dancing for dogs"  if it appeals to the owner??  I'm sure you wouldn't look down your nose at Mary Ray!!

Like Lucyandmeg said, what is the difference between a normal, pet  "sit"  and a trick??

OK they might not set the obedience world alight but I think you should be pleased that one of your puppies has gone to owners who take such an interest in doing stuff and bonding with their dog :)

IMO as long as the class is well run and don't use negative techniques then a dog training class can only be a good thing no matter what breed.

Incase anyone isn't aware Sam does not appreciate HTM or Dancing with dogs.  That is her opinion, like everyone we all have opinions and I'm guessing Sam is just concerned for one of her puppies due to her opinions on a sport.

Lets face it some of us who show, don't see the point in obedience, some people who do agility don't agree with showing, and of course many people believe the a dog should only ever do the job it was bred to do.  We don't all agree, but then  again, if we did wouldn't life be boring!

Sam, I personally don't see why you don't like your breed doing basic obedience? Surely this is better then nothing at all?  I can understand your thoughts on those trainers who tink everything thinks like a collie (been and left those clubs with my setters) yet I have also found a fair few trainers who understand different breeds :)  Don't think they are all collie mad :)

My trainer has flatcoats, another local trainer has labs and another one has poodles. I don't see why everyone thinks all dog trainers have collies. Certainly the basic pet obedience ones don't always. Ok if you are talking competitive obedience, they might be collie orientated, but most average pet dog trainers have experience of all sorts of breeds.
Ice_queen i can understand that sam doesn't like hwtm, thats fair enough we are all different in our likes and dislikes, but this is no longer her puppy, and i really can't see what is wrong with responsible dog owners trying to socialise and teach basic manners to what is essentially going to be a big dog. THese owners are being responsible and i can't see that that makes them a bad home for this pup. 

I've just googled the training classes and it is just a basic pet dog obedience class. THere looks to be a mix of all sorts of breeds there and penny compton owns home bred whippets, not collies. There are advanced obedience classes for those that want them but you wouldn't sort of in one anyway. The line dancing is just mentioned as an aside "and theres even an opportunity to try line dancing for fun." Its not compulsory. It sounds very much like the classes i go to, just a bit of fun and socialisation with a bit of training thrown in.

http://www.helpwithyourdog.co.uk/index.php

It sounds a nice middle of the road class, its not real HWTM class,that was mentioned as a fun aside & as ive never heard of her it isnt going to be competive obedience proper,

I think it sounds like a good class for a pet owner.

One small word of warning Sam.....this is no longer your pup.

well actually you dont know that atall and i do still have an intereest in its ownership!!!

karen said I think the average owner would be much better off teaching their dog of any breed, obedience rather than to hunt!
hmm well shows how little you know about my breed!

kateC said And what is wrong with  "line dancing for dogs"  if it appeals to the owner??  I'm sure you wouldn't look down your nose at Mary Ray!!
wrong!! I think shes appalling!!!

lucyandmeg said Hese owners are being responsible and i can't see that that makes them a bad home for this pup.
no one said they were being bad owners!!!! their motives are good I just doubt that this is the right environment for the breed!!!

I think a small amount of concern is sensible - if i heard someone had a deerhound and was taking it to a HTM class i would be worried.... will the trainer bear in mind the breeds physical differences from a more suitable breed, will they take into account that a 2 year old deerhound is no where near 'done' as a 2 year old collie would be...will the owners be horribly disappointed when the dog does not perform anywhere near as well as other breeds?

Hopefully these owners just want to have fun and will laugh it off when their bloodhound decides its more fun to track the sandwhich someone left in their handbag a week ago rather than perform the HTM routine - sadly these days its all too common for people to have totally unfair and quite honestly ridiculous expectations of their dogs, and dogs DO end up losing out because of it.

I would be way more worried if a breeder WASNT concerned about a puppy owners expectations from their dog.

Sam,
in response to your  post to me, If you still have an interest in the pup, or have it in part ownership, then you should have included that in your original post...people are not psychic, and you cannot expect them to give proper answers if you cant be bothered to include all the information. Secondly, its clear that you are angry with those that dont agree with you...well why ask the question in the board if you dont want to know their opinions answers?, and you show rudeness to those who take the time to reply. Lastly, in response you your statement to another person "you obviously dont know my breed very well"....well if you wanted opinions only from those who know your breed, then ask the question elsewhere....I wasn't aware we all had to be experts on YOUR breed, and you didnt mention that you only wanted replies from experts.

If you dont want to hear the answers....dont ask the question.

I think any basic training can only be a good thing, no matter what the breed. I even took one of my hounds to some obedience classes, much to his breeder's consternation - as I should have been teaching him to stand, not sit - and I don't regret it....ok he's never going to win any prizes (he got the hang of down very quickly but then would refuse to get up again...:D) but it got him socialised with a variety of other dogs, and it was nice to spend some time with him, and it taught me some things too...

as to the HTM side of things - maybe the trainer Sam is concerned about is not the most ideal trainer for her breed, I don't know, I wouldn't consider HTM for my breed either, as a sight hound their attention span wouldn't assist and I would be more concerned about potential damage to young hounds through that kind of exercise, and older hounds would be too darn big!! Each to their own, it's meant to be fun for owner and dog alike, and if the dog learns some obedience, all the better......

Have you all seen line dancing? its not HWTM, usually the dogs potter about somewhere near their handler (doing sort of obedience, basic obedience turns or a sit) whilst the owners do the dancing. Its just abit of a laugh, people that dont take themselves too seriously having a laugh with the dogs!!!!

> no one said they were being bad owners!!!! their motives are good I just doubt that this is the right environment for the breed!!!

what are the hips like on this breed sam? obvisley the pup must be allowed to mature properally before any moves are attempted (if any are) most fun clubs would  just teach teach a weave through the legs, a walk back, a go round the body, & twist & a twirl, a bow & a roll over.So nothing too strenuous but obvisley the dog needs to have grown, as puppys it would be very slow luring moves

Not many fun clubs teach two legged stuff.

A bloodhound weaving through the legs I'd like to see that one ;-)

Sam is obviously very concerned abuot someone trying to do something that normally a single minded breed wouldn't do (sorry if that comes out wrong, but I think I know what I mean.....lol) Bloodhounds like to hunt, and once locked onto a scent will take off and, I asume, become deaf to commands. A bit like my lot after a deer ........... or a hare.......... I applaud you for being concerned, but what is wrong in trying? Is the breed so set in its ways that there is no way it would manage it, and therefore would fail so badly that the owners would give up on it? I really don't know enough about the breed to make an educated comment. I'd be happy if any of my pups owners wanted to do any activity with their new addition. At least they showed an interest in the pups mental being, as well as the physical.

sam i'm guessing in order to hunt your dogs you do need to teach some obedience or you wouldn't get very far. And  don;t think your better teaching a pet dog to hunt than sit when required...

i think your getting annoyed at peoples reactions and need to explain you position further to clarify why your unhappy. we all seem to be seeing it differently from you- i.e. a pet dog in a home (which i get the impression you will have vetted very thouroughly) needs to learn basic obedience so whats wrong with it going to a class? granted you might not be delighted with the dancing but what difference does it make? as you said its not exactly the perfect breed for it, its never going to become a famous dancing bloodhound and bring shame down upon your kennel so whats the big deal?

was the dog intended for hunting? if you'd had that in mind i'm sure you would have found a home with that intention. As you've said before its a numerically small breed and i'm sure those who do work them are crying out for good workers.

Pinklillies.  Sams original post asked has anyone heard of this trainer in question and what do they think.

No-one yet has anwerd the questioned asked yet asked questions back to Sam about why her opinions are how they are (that said in nicest possible way)

Well I doubt whether she'd give two hoots what you think... and with a bit of luck, the new owners of  "your"  puppy won't either.

At the end of the day, if the dog is totally unsuited to whatever activities they choose to try, it will soon become apparent and they'll move on to something else, or give up.

If I were you I'd stick to worrying about your own dogs, not other people's  :)

ETA if you're going to get angry when people don't agree with you, it's probably best for your own blood pressure not to post  :)

This is avery specialised breed and I can see where Sam is coming from. I think she was trying to discover weather this trainer is a good one. After all not all trainers are equal and all don't have the tools  to work with anything out of the ordinary also I'm fairly sure she wont have trained many bloodhounds.
So answering this question rather than just the what do you think part may have been just as appropriate.

> If I were you I'd stick to worrying about your own dogs, not other peoples

Most people would look down on a breeder that didnt worry about "their" puppies especially when they still have an "interest" in themwhich I take to mean joint ownership.

Oh dear what a shame even breeders are now stereotyping their own dogs!

There are some VERY successful hounds in various disciplines including HWTM and of course I can think of Alex and her amazing beagles in Working Trials, Obedience and Agility etc.

ANY stimulation for dogs is better than nothing, it helps create a bond and I think you may find there are a wealth of trainers out there who do not treat all breeds like BC or GSD.

There are some very successful "other" breeds out there that can knock the spots of the black and whites etc! ;) :D

So any training is good then regardless of the expertise or lack of with regards to the trainer. :) No I don't believe thats what your saying  but I also do think that no one has adressed this part of Sams post either. Look past her undoubted hatered of HWTM thats a personal choice and maybe shouldnt put her off the trainer but look at what shes asking does anyone know how good this trainer is?

There is taking an interest in a dog's welfare and wellbeing, and there is being unreasonably controlling.  If I thought the breeder of a puppy I was buying was going to be interfering and criticising all the time, I'd steer well clear.

> If I thought the breeder of a puppy I was buying was going to be interfering and criticising all the time, I'd steer well clear.

There is the difference then these owners knew that Sam was going to remain involved with this puppy and I'm sure thats why they consulted her.

I wouldn't call it "unreasonably controlling" Personally I see it as a breeder who breeds a "specilist" breed which can go very wrong if put into the wrong hands of an inexperianced dog/scent hound owner and therefore, assuming by the sounds of it these people have their first bloodhound, are going back to the pup's breeder to let her know what is going on in the pubs life.  The breeder is now asking, from a forum of many doggy people, if they have heard of a pet obedience trainer.

I'm sure if someone on here does now this trainer and has been to her classes and seen how she interacts with dogs, especially sent hounds, and then was able to inform Sam of tehir experiance, she woould have had her question answerd and would have made sure the pup's owners are going into the right hands.

After all we had one of our pup's ruined by a pet obedience trainer who ended up making this dog more aggressive. :( If the owners had of come to us first we would of advised them not to go to this particular trainer, but to another club.  (This trainer though the best way to keep control of a bositrous young male setter was to grab it by the balls and make it sit out of any exercises which included the other dogs, which resulted in a dog hating men, anyone appraocing from it's rear, and hated other dogs as was taught not to interact.)  I personally now too will want to know of any trainers before a puppy owner took their dog to training, to find out what style of training the trainer used.  My own obedeince club have an array of breeds including other Gundogs and not only understand the setters not doing aswel as a BC etc but also understand my dogs also show and don't make me always sit the dog on halts and mine learn stand stays before the rest of the class :)

But she isn't saying that she just wants to check out whether the trainer in question is any good.

She is complaining about the owners taking their dog to obedience AT ALL.

Read her first sentence, that is the question in the post. Yes she goes on to give her own thoughts and fair enough you are entitled to disagree with them but the question isn't being answered by anyone possibly because no one knows the trainer concerned. However how many posters have said they cant answer the question?  All  have instead expressed there own thoughts on Sam's opinions. She actually said she was concerned about obedience training for a hound, but in another post says she would rather they did appropriate trianing which  to my mind is bound to include building a relationship with the handler.

Edited because I got my paragraphs and sentances muddled LOL

> Yes she goes on to give her own thoughts and fair enough you are entitled to disagree with them but the question isn't being answered by anyone possibly because no one knows the trainer concerned.

Ok...

No Sam i've never heard of this person. However if she shows whippets i'm surprised you've not come across her in group situations with your hounds. Maybe ask the people you know with hounds if they've met her/heard of her? i know your scent and she's sight but as your in the same group theres a chance someone knows of her, i;d think paths would cross at some point.

alternatively if you;ve a part ownership interest in the pup why not go along to a class? see first hand how she works with them.

better satincollie? perhaps more constructive

Perfect :-D

Fair enough. But all she had to ask, if she didn't want opinions about HER opinions, was ask  "Has anyone heard of this trainer?"

When you post opinions, you should expect to get opinions back. And if you post opinions about opinions, then you will get other opinions back etc etc......

> When you post opinions, you should expect to get opinions back. And if you post opinions

Yes but hopefully answers to your questions also not just opinions.