I know a breeder who has beautiful show dogs,. However, her retried bitches will be breed everytime they on heat.
Im very doubt about this!!!!  I have very little knowledge about breeding, is she right or I just too suspicious?

No it isn't right :-)

How old are the bitches when she starts to breed and how many litter does she have off them ?

Hi,
If the breeder has beautiful show dogs?!!It is very bad practice to breed them every season!
Do you mean diffrent bitches or the same bitch?
A bitch should not be breed before 2yrs old or her third season. "good breeding practice"
It takes a lot out of a bitch to have a litter of say 7 pups plus feeding them some breeds have more pups some less. This is were the puppy farming comes in! when people who ever they are breed a bitch every season. They can not register with the Kennel Club more than one litter a year.
This is why it is better in my opinion to buy only K.C. puppies not 100% quarantee but! you hope that the breeder has good breeding practice.

Denese

Denese.  You need to have a little read at the latest guidelines.

A bitch should not be breed before 2yrs old or her third season. "good breeding practice"

Each breed club have their own guidelines.

when people who ever they are breed a bitch every season. They can not register with the Kennel Club more than one litter a year.


This advise is incorrect. It is not advisable to breed a bitch on a second season UNLESS under some special circumstances and it wouldn't likely be done like that again BUT the KC will register them and this has been updated for I think nearly 18 months.

So Blue, you agree with babies having babies???
You say The Kennel Club will register puppies from a bitch breed every season being in most breeds every six month's???
So tell me where please!! Where do the puppies farmer come in???
What is the diffrence???
I personally could not see my bitches go through such stress, the coat hasn't even grown back.
The bitch needs time to get her self back to sorts.
If what you say is fact! the line between puppy farming and breeding is getting thinner.
I personally would not buy a dog of such a person.

Denese

The kennel Club will actually register litters as long as the bitch was 12 months old when mated, I thought it was but just double checked.

Linda

So Blue, you agree with babies having babies???

of course I do not what a silly question   I was merely correcting your incorrect statement for the readers who may think what you have said is factual.

I didn't share any opinion at all.  I agree with most of what you say in your opinion but  My opinion has nothing to do with my original reply to you :-)

I am a very ethical and occasional breeder.

>They can not register with the Kennel Club more than one litter a year.

Not quite right, Denese - licenced breeders (those who breed 5 or more litters per year) can't register more than one litter every 12 months from the same bitch, but smaller-scale breeders can.

The Kennel club has to have an overall rule to suit every wide ranging breed so it has a minimum age of mating a bitch at 12 months, maximum of before 8 except in exceptional circumstances on application.  There is also a maximum of 6 litters.

The Kennel Club has asked all bred clubs to draw up their own codes of ethics which are usually going to be more stringent in most cases, based on the needs of a given breed.

This would allow for the toy breeds who mature earlier and have whelping difficulties if bred to late, the chances of many bitches being only 12 months on the day of mating are only about 1 in 180, as of course bitches are only mated when in season.

The maximum six litters in a toy breed might only be 6 puppies, some of which may not even have survived, do not over-breeding by the breeder to secure something good for the next generation.

In my own medium size breed with a litter average of around 6 (up to 14 have been known, but more usually you have up to 8), the breed club limits the number of litters to a maximum of 4.  It is recommended that bitches do not whelp on consecutive seasons, of course a breeder may have good reason to do this if the bitch had a singleton pup or lost her litter. Some bitches cycle at less than 6 months intervals and a bitch having had a clear season between may whelp just under a year from last litter.  Yes a breeder could have waited, but there may be a good reason for the timing, availability of the stud age of the bitch etc.

This is the reason the Kennel club removed the 12 months between litters rule as it was overwhelmed by applications for exemption, and I suspect could not sort them out in time for an answer (bearing in mind a bitch may have come in season early and need to be mated within a week or two).  Sadly of course this allows the puppy farmer/BYB to take advantage of the rules.

Denese, just to clarify. I reported a Lab breeder who was breeding from bitches with only a 5 month period between their last litter and their new litter. (All this information I got from the KC breed supplements). The KC were downright rude to me on the phone and I had to put my complaint in writing which I did. Well, I needed have bothered as the KC were not interested and basically told me so in their reply. However, luckily he was a licensed breeder and I was able to report him to the Council who were marvellous and served him with a warning and will keep an eye on him now. So what I am really saying is that the Council were more concerned for the health of the bitches than the Kennel Club was! Amazing isn't it.! Certainly opened my eyes. I must say the lady at the Council was appalled that that sort of practice was going on.

So if it is now exceptable to breed on the second season being 12months old in most breeds.
7yrs old  in human years!
That would mean no hip scores ect; ect; as they have to be over 12 months old for some health checks. I can see why you might breed of a bitch at her second season if her heats are every 18months. Puppy farmers are going to have a wale of a time!!!!!
PUPS OF ALL BREEDS ARE GOING TO BE RIFE!!  the rescue are going to be over taxed.

Alison,
Appalled!! It is disgusting. The lay person would think if a person showed there dogs ect;
They would be a responsible breeder. They would care for there bitches welfare, also the puppies welfare. As NO way! can a bitch be in good mind and body to have litters every 6months.
The bitch and puppies would end up poor quality. There has got to be more fatalities.
How are good responsible breeders going to be distinguished from the likes of these other breeders.

So if it is now exceptable to breed on the second season being 12months old in most breeds

No-one on here has said that's acceptable...

Debs

>So if it is now exceptable to breed on the second season being 12months old in most breeds.
>7yrs old  in human years!

Again, not quite right, Denese. Firstly it's not true that 1 human year = 7 dog years. The age of the first season = puberty, which is about 12 years old for humans. The second season would therefore be the equivalent of about 5 or 6 years older; 16 or 17, or thereabouts. Not quite so shocking! ;-) See this chart for a more accurate age comparison.

Secondly it's not "in most breeds" - you're leaping to conclusions! Check what breed clubs say. And thirdly - it's not a recent change so there will be no sudden additional fallout.

>So if it is now exceptable to breed on the second season being 12months old in most breeds.

7yrs old  in human years!

That wouldnt be the case as a 7 year old human would not be able to produce a baby.

snap JG (although as always your post contains much more factual info to back up what you are saying :)  )

> Secondly it's not "in most breeds" - you're leaping to conclusions! Check what breed clubs say. And thirdly - it's not a recent change so there will be no sudden additional fallout

There used to be no limits at all as it was left to the breeders to do what is right, some did some didn't,a nd the same goes currently.  the ones who breed every season would continue to do so except the pups couldn't' be registered.  I suppose the only good thing about the current situation is that no more than 6 litters can be registered from a bitch.

Most good breeders of medium size breeds with average size litters have two or three litters from their bitches not usually before around 3 years of age, and usually with more than 12 months between litters as they are fitting litter in between a bitches show career.

There are lots of things that are legal yet unethical.

Hi Maia,

Before we all jump down the throat of this breeder, it may just be that with you not knowing anything about breeding that your facts are not quite correct.

After a bitch's litter has all gone a bitch will come into season again quite quickly as it is usually 6 months - 6 months regardless of a pregnancy, so perhaps this breeder has bred on the second season after her litter and the new litter is born approx a year after the whelping of the previous????

Also if she has bitches, how do you know which bitch the litter is coming from?

You may be very acurate in what is going on and unless for a good reason it is disgraceful, but sometimes others jump the gun before knowing all the real facts.

denise

The bitch and puppies would end up poor quality. There has got to be more fatalities.


Your statements are based on your heart, definitely not fact, I can understand your outrage, and to be honest I don't know many who would breed from a bitch a season or even two just after a litter, not due to it making poor quality puppies :-D, but to give the bitch a good rest, just as we after childbirth would not wish to pop another out 9 months later, but there are many valid reasons why someone may breed from a bitch twice in a row which is why the KC allow a litter to be registered as long as from a bitch within their set out criteria.

There are respected and good breeders out there who have done just that for many different reasons. :-) So you have to be careful not to lump everyone in the same apple cart, puppy farmers are a completley different thing, by the way they treat and raise their pups and bitches from health tests to food, to after care, which is why anyone suspecting mistreatment of a bitch should report it immediately.

Clare,

7years No, 9years Yes!

Denese

Denese
At 1 year old the dog is the equivalent of a 15-year-old human.

Some breeds only have seasons once a year.  I know people who will breed back to back when their bitches have seasons every year to year and a half inbetween. 

I wouldnt do it on a dog though, that has seasons every 4-6 months.  And definately not on a bitch that is under 2 years of age. 

Say you wait until the bitch is two, she comes into season at 2.5 years, and then doesnt have another season until she is 4 years old.  It happens in some breeds.  I know most breeders would breed at the 2.5 and then again at 4, with the last one being at 4 years of age = so two litters in the bitches lifetime

On reading how old is your dog! it says that a 5month old dog = 10year old human,
So on that! a 2 1/2 month old dog  = to a 5year old human.
Sorry can't take that on board a puppy hasn't even cut all  it's teeth at 2  1/2  months in my breed anyway.
I must agree I do think that others carry the same morals as myself in life.
It was my down fall for all the years I worked for the Social services child care.
To protect the young.
I will never agree or except babies having babies if it can be preventive.
I have seen poor dogs in my breed come into rescue after being breed  from ever season,
no hair, never been outside a kennel or ever seen grass or walked on it, never seen the sun or walked in the rain.
I probly do think from the heart with my dogs and puppies.

>On reading how old is your dog! it says that a 5month old dog = 10year old human, So on that! a 2 1/2 month old dog  = to a 5year old human.

The chart doesnt work like that, I dont think it has a mathmatical "rule" as such, im assuming it goes on the comparison of development and maturity.

ClaireyS,
The chart is rather right or wrong! I am sorry my common sence tells me, it is not quite right.
A year is a year in anyone's life, even a dogs.

Denese

I don't think anyone is saying it is OK to breed from a dog at 12 months but some breeds are more suited to being bred from younger than large breeds.   Whilst I agree that 1 year old is a bit young I would not say 18 months was or 3rd season in some breeds.

I think you are missing the point. Dogs are not humans. They clearly age differently and each breed is also different. 

A year is not a year in a dogs life.  Common sense tells you this.   They wouldn't die so young would they??

You clearly have a huge problem with seperating dogs from humans, including the emotions also.  

>A year is a year in anyone's life, even a dogs.

Denese, the chart aligns a dog's developmental stages to those of a human - that's the most realistic comparison.

Jeangenie,

Can you really take on board that a 5 month old pup is = to a 10year old child??

O.K. so they are saying that at 12 months they are 15years approx! to a human.

Well like dogs some start seasons at 6 months some 12 months.
Humans start there periods from 9years to 13 years

You don't get older quicker if you start them at 9 years
you are not mature enough at 9 years to rear young.
Even though in some countrys they may disagree with that.
Even though they say 7years to our one is an old wifes tale. I beleve it is nearer than, 10years to 5 months. some dogs live to 10years some to 20years.
We are mature at approx 21years, Dogs are at about 3 years.
Denese

>Can you really take on board that a 5 month old pup is = to a 10year old child??

Yes I can. An 8-week pup is equivalent to a toddler (2 or 2½ years) at nursery; it can walk and feed itself, and is starting to learn independence.

Hi Carrington

I just got an adult female dog from the breeder, the bitch is almost 5yrs old. When I asked the breeder why she sale the dog, she told that because this female dog only has one puppy each time and her other bitches usually have 3 or more. Then I asked her how many times the bitch has been bred, she said she started breed her at the age arond 2yrs & 8mth and she has had 3litters. I wasn't aware of anything at the time we talk, but when I talke with my friend who told the bitch might has been bred too often.
After that, I phoned the breeder and ask whether she bred the bitch too often and whether this would cause any health problem in the later of the bitch's life!!! She told me that she breed all her bitches everytime they on heat and never seem a problem.

Well Maia that is disgusting, poor bitches, I'm glad that you now have one of them. :-)

I once overheard a vet saying to a lady who had bred her bitch, and it had been accidently mated just after, she had gone to the vet for the injection to end the pregnancy, I was gobsmacked by the vets response as she did not want the pregnancy, when he said, it would be ok for the bitch to go ahead, as if she has come into season that means that her body is fit enough again.

His words, if a bitch were not fit to produce it would not produce eggs, the season would be delayed, the pups may be absorbed or lost.

He did not think for one minute about the moral issues, just scientific onces, which I guess is what many vets do.

So healthwise your bitch should be fine, but morally it is a disgrace. :-(

Hi Blue,
My standards are high in Dogs and humans, my breed of dog has been in our family since the 1930's
and they are part of the family. Always have been and if you checked the breed you can see why.
It would not be a breed to have if this could not be done.
I admit all breeds are diffrent, so there needs are diffrent.
I know there is breeds that have very small litters and have trouble delivering them, so to be mated a little younger when there bones are supple is a safer idea.
It is surely the way for good breeders "to lead the way"
I found that after helping deliver my grandchildren, dogs in delivery are more like us than we would like to admit. Fewer dogs abanden there young than humans.
A lot of the problems they have in welphing ,we  also have.
I have not said a year in a dogs life is equal to a year in our lives!
But! my intelligence tells me also a 5month old dog in my breed is not equal to a 10year old child.
Yes!! Blue when I loose one of my dogs It breaks my heart I do love them.
They are missed and never forgotten, spoke about for many years.
If that is having a huge problem with my emotions Yes! I must have one!!
I would also give my life for my six children 7 grandchildren and great grandchild.
I would not for my dogs. But! there are still loved an awfull lot. I would never abuse them or harm them in any way.
Samoyeds give love to all man kind and they deserve to be given the same back.

Denese

I've just read through all the posts and think this is getting a bit petty now.
Denese i dont think anyone disputing you love your dogs, as we all do. As said before i think the dog - human age ratio is a rough guide, not set in stone.

Exactly :-)   The content of Denese's post was correct end of story. God knows why it went on and on..:-)

I don't think anyone here implied that they would mate bitches at 12 months old or on seasons back to back except a one off exceptional circumstance.  That is exactly the thinking of good breeders who love their dogs and breed and using common sense.

Before reliable contraception women had a baby a year and often died in childbirth, or lost later babies because their bodies were worn out. 

This is exactly what people who rescue poor puppy farm bitches see, so yes over-breeding and poor care can affect a bitches health.

Lets keep on topic folks and not take things personally.

Hi Denese.

Maturity in dogs differs depending on the size and breed, maturity doesn't mean they are ready to breed, but in the wild they would at their first season!
No good breeder, even if the KC are OK with it would breed at first season.

A small breed often has it's first season at about 6 months - just like human girls get their period at about twelve.
Large breeds often don't get thier first season till 12 months of age - humans again about approximatly 12 years.

It depends on breed! But just like humans if you breed 1st litter late (depending on breed) you are more likely to have problems

So first season doen't equal maturity either in dogs or humans, but they could reproduce.

Maturity is in the head, seasons and periods show they could reproduce.

But if a child of 12 had a baby I'd be shocked, just like if a breeder breed from first season I'd be shocked, but unfortunatly it does happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-(

> but in the wild they would at their first season!

Actually it wouldn't as the alpha female prevents the other females in any wild pack of wolves from ovulating & therefore only the Alpha female has young, more than one litter in a wild pack is very very unusual. Discount anything you see on TV & the wolves kept in captivity as these are not natural packs.

Only because our dogs are NOT wolves they are fertile in their first season

A breeder who is fairly local to me and who has a website, bred a bitch every season for at least 3 years(as the bitch was an adult when I first saw the site Im guessing she probably had more than the amount I knew of. The bitch was a Tibetian Terrier which was always mated to a Shih-Tzu 'because she is small for her breed, she cant be mated to a TT stud'.
Obviously the resulting pups cannot be registered so the KC wouldnt have a clue (the breeder bred other KC reg breeds).
Needless to say the bitch died young. A short obituary was placed on their website saying 'Our dearest ****, died after a short and sudden illness....' No doubt down to being bred constantly!
They now have a huge amount of dogs, many long haired breeds, non that look like theyve ever been groomed. And in the last year theyve now taken on huskys too!
I have a feeling theyre cashing in on the husky fad thats been steadily growing in our area of late.
Gets me mad, I tell you!