I was wondering if anyone knows of any K/C rule that would prevent a dog being shown wearing a head collar. I have phoned the K/C twice now and each time the person I spoke to did not know the answer, said they would find out and ring me back. To date I have not had the awaited phone call.
Thank you

Cant imagine there is a rule, but would guess a dog with a headcollar would not do very well as for a start it would be more difficult to assess the head properly.  

Can't see why it would make a difference other than obscuring the lines of the head, but if it is a very large breed the judge may understand why it is being used, but otherwise it just might make you look a bit unprofessional.

I remember at one show the UK's top judge taking no notice of the fact that an exhibit still had his wide leather bench collar on in the ring, and the dog won Open dog, ti didn't exactly look attractive but the judge was judging the dog.

My one worry would be that a head collar on all but the biggest dog might give a negative impression of the dogs level of training or temperament.

>My one worry would be that a head collar on all but the biggest dog might give a negative impression of the dogs level of training or temperament

Have to say, this is generally the impression I get when I see dogs wearing a head collar, regardless of where they are.  ;)

Edited to Add quote

Thank you for your help. I do have a very large breed and have recently sustained a back injury. He is a devil for forcing his head down when standing in the ring, have tried all sorts but to no avail. but with a head collar just holding the side with one finger does the trick. He is perfectly behaved in every other aspect. Even a hand held under the chin does not stop him as he presses down hard and the pain just shoots through my back.

Why not try making your show lead into a headcollar. 

If you use a slip lead, put it on as normal, Once round his head, take hold of it under his chin and pull it forward slightly, then twist it round on itself to make a loop and put this over his nose.  Hey presto you have a head collar.  If I've not explained this well, pm me and I'll take some piccies that might explain it better! 

I used to use this on one of mine outside the ring as he has a very sensitive throat and when he was pulling to get to the girls, he would cough alot making him sound like he has KC.

Jill

Then if he is going to behave well in the ring I can't see a good judge being bothered.  You could mention ti to the Steward that you have a bad back.

Many thanks everyone, and thank you Jill I will give that a go. May just try the head collar at one of the shows and see what the judges reaction is. You never know it might just start a new trend ha ha

Do you show your breed with a high collar or a low loose collar?  I have found, no matter the dog, that if the collar is high, just under the ear (not holding tight, just when you are stacking, grab the collar, and pull it up to the underneath the ears)  then it can not put its head down.  I wish I could do a sketch, and post it here, because it is so hard to explain.  Its kinda between being "strung up" and loose collar. 

The only breed this doesnt work well for are your spaniels, which here, the collar and leash is taken right off to show the neck.  Then once the judge has gone over the dog, the collar and leash is slipped back on.

Having the collar high under the ears even if it isn't pulled really tight, has to be tight otherwise it would stay in place & is uncomfortable, at best, for the dog which is why the dog keeps it's head up at an unnatural position. .

Using this whilst stacking a dog to keep it's head up is also using pain. Far easier to teach the dog to stand naturally for a reward with it's head in a normal position & showing the dogs true shoulder & forequarter conformation, making the dog hold it's head in what you assume to be the correct position often spoils the dog's actual front. It's relatively easy to do with a large breed(I used to successfully show my friend's Newfies like this for her)in fact it is easier than showing a very small breed free standing

You only have to look at the GSDs shown in the US & in the UK in this way, they hold their heads in a way that they don't if they stand or run free. Not all breeds should move/stand with their heads & necks held upright, most dogs when gaiting naturally will stretch their necks forward & lowered their heads.In stance the dogs head should enhance it's neck & shoulders not be held rigidly

I've often thought the cockers and other gundogs should be shown moving with their noses glued to the ground as that's natural for them! :-D But I find with my Yankee that as long as the collar is right up under his chin, I can actually have the lead very slightly slack so I'm not exerting any pressure, just him feeling that the collar is there and would exert pressure if he put his head down stops him doing it.

Please Moonmaiden, go to my post called "Whats the Difference"

to say that I would cause harm to my dog on purpose, to basically call me an animal abuser, is offensive and hypocrytical.  I looked at some pics from Crufts, and you in the UK show dogs exactly how we do here.  STRUNG UP.  Look at the reserve best in show picture, of the terrier. 

Please, it is really maddening that you would say that I cause my dog pain.  She isnt in pain, and then when I look at how you show dogs in the UK, it makes me more mad, since UK exibitors DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING. 

I would NEVER hurt my dogs.   To imply such a thing is disgusting.

I don't think you will find many Cavalier or Correct type GSD being shown with the collars up under their ears.  The "alsatian"type & terriers & professionally handled dogs yes, because it gives control through pain & sensitivity. You may not be aware be the top of the neck just below the ears is extremely sensitive & even if the collar isn't pulled excessively tight, it has to be tight to stay up. Using a choker up under the ears means it has to be fairly tight otherwise it will slip down, there are slip lead with a rubber stopper that stay up under the ears, but they too have to be fairly tight & that tightness ensures compliance. I've lost count of the number of conformation handlers that I had forced to lossen their collar used in this way.

My Cavaliers are trained to stack themselves untouched(although they are stacked in the USA & Canada & professionally handled) as are 99 % of UK cavaliers, to kneel down & manhandle a Cavalier in the UK ring is a massive no no as is using the collar high under the ears.

Do not lump all UK handlers as the same as the ones who win the top awards(usuallyprofessional in many breeds)there are no pro handlers in Cavaliers for a start.Both the BIS & Res BIS at Crufts were professionally handled & if memory serves me right the terrier is a foreign dog.

It is rude to shout BTW on the internet(ie use caps)&"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" to quote the Queen in Shakespeare's Hamlet

Having the collar high under the ears even if it isn't pulled really tight, has to be tight otherwise it would stay in place

Actually there is a way to keep a chain up under the chin and have a loose lead at the same time.  If you have the large rings of the chain directly under the chin, as opposed to at the side of the neck, the chain will stay where it's put and you can still show your dog on a loose lead :-)  It doesn't have to be tight round the neck either.

It's how I show the Pharaos and GBGV.  To me, a collar/show chain/whatever half way down the neck looks very ugly and spoils the neck line - especially on a smooth coated dog.  To have it so loose that it hangs round the shoulders, for example, could be qiute dangerous as all the dog has to do is drop it's head and back out of it and the dog is no longer on a lead at all.

Just to add - in no way am I refering to 'stringing up' - because yes - that IS painful for the dog.

Debs

When I read the last couple of posts I was thinking of that wonderful photo of Rumour Debs, that's a great example of a loose lead with chain under neck isn't it? If it is as I remember any chance of posting a link to it? :-)

Do you mean this one Tigger2?

Debs

ETA:  Just realised something - is this is allowed under TOS?  It's not an advert or anything - just an image to show a point.

Thank you yes :-D  It's a fabulous photo.

Rumour looks perfectly happy, not being tortured in any way. Her neckline isn't spoiled by having a lead across it, you can clearly see her lovely long clean neck and her lead is loose :-)

ETA I'm sure it's allowed as it's very relevant to the way the post is going.

>Actually there is a way to keep a chain up under the chin and have a loose lead at the same time

You cannot do with the very fine chains that are used on most show dogs unless they really too small for the dog when used the normal looped way & if they are smaller enough to use the end rings to fasten them, a death linked choker would have to be almost exactly the same length as the circumference of the dogs neck to stay up & therefore you are using the threat of the chain tightening to ensure the dogs head is kept up.

It really is easy to teach dogs to move with their heads held up naturally I've done it with GSDs, Beardies, Border Collies, Rough Collies, Standard Poodles, Labradors, Bassets, Afghans, Cockers, Cavaliers, Cardigan Corgis, Whippets, Greyhounds & lots of other breeds the result is a fair better picture than a dog with the collar up under their ears, however it does take more training & this is why so many people opt for the collar under the ears. I had a top junior handler try to handle one of my beardies doing this, however it had the opposite effect & when he tried stacking her using the choker she dipped her topline, other young handlers never had any problems handling her on a dead linked choker at the base of her neck(& therefore hidden in her coat), moving her on a truly loose lead & free standing her.

I used to get paid for handling dogs to show off their conformation naturally, never had a dog escape they way you describe

most show dogs I dont think most show dogs are shown on a chain are they?

Many of the professionally handled dogs are & I think they are creeping back in, I really do not like them unless they are used loosely on a dead link.

I wouldn't have a problem judging a dog being handled with a head collar in conformation classes, they cannot be used in obedience as the rules forbid it

You cannot do with the very fine chains that are used on most show dogs unless they really too small for the dog when used the normal looped way & if they are smaller enough to use the end rings to fasten them

It's got nothing to do with the size of the chain used.  The only thing that matters is where the two end rings of the chain lie on the dogs neck.    If you look at the lead that Rumour has on, you will see that it's a very fine black chain with a lead attached - and the lead clip is a good 8 inches from her neck so no way could it be too small.  The only chains it doesn't work on are the snake link ones.

therefore you are using the threat of the chain tightening to ensure the dogs head is kept up

My dogs are all taught to show and move with no lead or collar on at all.  The only reason they have a lead on in the ring is because it's against KC rules to not have one.  There is no threat involved whatsoever.  Having the lead at the top of the neck is, IMO, just a better way of allowing as much of the dog to be seen as possible without breaking up the neckline with a collar.

Debs

TBH I find my eye being drawn to the chain & therefore to the top of the neck rather than seeing the dog as a whole, it is still tight under the ears & no matter what you say if it was't tight it would a. Visible & b.it would slip down.

I think the way it is being used is with the choker in the inverted P(ie the chain has the loop pulled upward  rather than the"correct" hanging loop using the choker this way does keep it up but it does stay tight(which is why it is deemed incorrect). Bit difficult to explain without pictures.

Your dogs maybe like mine trained off lead for the show ring, but most dogs aren't & therefore the the owners resort to chokers(Boxers, Dobes etc)I used to handle my Grandads Boxers free standing on a loose long choker(this was in the early 1960's) they never slipped out of their collars & the amount of winning they did it couldn't have distracted the judges very much

LOL It is difficult to explain without people being there in person isn't it :-D  But no - the chain isn't put on the wrong way round.  It's just that the two end links are moved about 3 inches to underneath the chin and not on the side of the neck as per usual.  It's not tight at all - it just stays where you put it :-)

Debs

>But no - the chain isn't put on the wrong way round.  It's just that the two end links are moved about 3 inches to underneath the chin and not on the side of the neck as per usual.

Hm but put on & used correctly the ring & end links should be under the chin & not by the side of the neck. they would only be at the side of the neck if they are tightened

Well I don't know how else to explain it LOL.  All I know is that it works, it's not tight and the dogs enjoy being in the ring and aren't worried at all about the lead.  I need to take some pics methinks :-D

Debs

Going back to the original post a bit. I dont think it would look too bad a large breed with a headcollar on, espeically if the nose loop can be taken off for the judge to go over the head and back on for moving.

You can get some really smart headcollars now that are thin webbing with discrete clips like k9bridle(probably not too comfortable to wear day in day out) but fine to wear in the showring for a short period of time when the dog is relatively calm and just there for preventative lunging etc.