*Hi

I know some of you may be thinking ' oh no' what does she want!! but i really do need some advice, so please dont attack me and help me out :).

As most of you know i had a litter born in september last year. The stud fee was pick of litter they did not want a fee a they wanted a bitch pup to carry on there lines. Well all went well she had the pups they chose the one they wanted, picked her up at 8 weeks etc. She was the first to go and i hadnt sent the papers off due to a delay in receiving the litter registration forms from the Kc with the postal strike. The pups were wormed at 2 4 6 and 8 weeks when she had her first jab and checked over by the vet everything ok.

2 weeks later to my shock i saw her for sale on the internet!!!! They owners hadnt told me they were going to sell her and why have her as the stud fee when they wanted to keep one and then sell her. Poor puppy!!I gave them a rather angry phone call to ask why, and they replied saying that when they took her to the vets for her 2nd jab the vet said she had a heart murmur!!! I thought this was odd, as she was checked at 4 and 8 weeks of age and her heart was fine! i thought well this was a great shock, she was the biggest in the bitches and never showed anything to be holding her back. They said they were selling her because they didnt have the time for her, but they knew they would be having her from the time of mating so i thought it all strange and i was suspicious. Nowhere in the advert did it say she had a heart murmur infact, they were selling her for £200 more than i was selling the rest of the litter, said she would make a great breeding bitch. I endorsed her papers to stop her getting in the wrong hands if they sell her because it was quite clear they were just after the money!!!

A week later they rang me to see how the papers where getting along, and that she no longer has a murmur!!! do they think im stupid!!! She never had one in the first place they were just using it as an excuse and i knew it. they said on the first phonecall that she had a test with a machine ( what i assumed was an ecg on a dog) and that now it was a mistake, she must have had a cold or a sniffle that altered the results. bull**** it was.

The papers were given to them in the post and i know they have sold the puppy, i have asked for the new owners details and they replied saying that the new owners do not want them to pass on their info to me, which i think is another lie. and the stud owners now refuse to answer my calls or emails!!!

I dont know what to do wether i can phone the Kc and ask for details of the new owners or what? I am very mad and upset thats why the above is slightly confusing i hope you are able to understand what on earth i am going on about but i am very distressed and all i care about is the puppies welfare and i would like to keep in contact with her new owners to see her progress and to inform them of the dodgy b*****ds they bought her from

What can i do???

Thanks Louise

Cheeky gits!

I take it you'd had no dealings with these before...
was any kind of contract signed?

I wish i knew more about breeding, but i can't really help i'm afraid...

The contract that was signed was basically that i agree to give them a bitch puppy as payment for the mating. Nothing other than that was mentioned.

Everyword that comes out of thier mouths is a lie, i had no dealings with these people before and now will never again. I would like the new owners of the puppies details so i dont have to have anything to do with them, but they are refusing to give me them.

I contacted KC and all they can do is give you the name the puppy is registered in ot anything else.

Linda

Hi Louise,

some stud dog owners do make the agreement at the time that they will have a puppy from the liaison rather than a stud fee - whether this is (for eg) first or second pick, dog or bitch, etc, should be agreed at the same time.  By accepting that agreement, the breeder (i.e. you, as owner of the bitch) is simply fulfilling that contract when the puppy changes hands.  What they go on to do with that puppy is, I'm afraid, their business and not yours :( 

Anyone in the same situation could find that the stud dog owner never wanted to keep the puppy anyway, failed to produce a puppy of the gender or colour for eg they wanted, or possibly does not think the litter of sufficient quality to keep one.

I don't know about your breed specifically, but stud fees in many breeds can be quite substantially lower than the sale price of the pup.  How substantial the difference (if any) is of course quantified by the individual circumstances of those involved (i.e. £50 may be nothing to you or I but equate to £500 to someone else).

I can understand why you are distressed - firstly you feel that they have been dishonest which naturally is worrying in many ways, secondly you are doubtless concerned about the future welfare of your puppy - again, worrying in many ways.  IMO all that you can hope that will come out of this is that the stud's owners care sufficiently about his offspring to have ensured they found a caring and knowledgeable home - after all it is they who are the new owner's first point of contact should things go awry.

The KC is unable to assist in matters of this kind and, because of the Data Protection Act, will be unable to furnish you with details of the new owner :(  However, you could ask that they pass YOUR details to the new owner if s/he registers change of ownership and could also keep an eye out in the KC Gazette for details of the transfer (although this would provide only a name at best).

regards, Teri

Sorry to hear this has happened Louise, it must be awful not to know where one of you're babies has gone. Maybe for future litters have a contract drawn up that states the puppy must not be sold or passed on without your notification/permission? Might give you some legal power if it were to happen again?? I know I signed one when I bought bought my boys. Hope you can track her down

Good luck xx

I know i thought the Kc would say that. I worry even more because i now know they are not the most intelligent people in the breed, they didnt know that a dogue has to be undershot!!! They originally had every intention of keeping her, they will have sold her to whoever had the money at the time the ''highest bidder'', probably didnt tell them she was endorsed either. I have learnt from my mistake and now shall never trust anyone and tar them with the same brush, i will write up a contract to cover all these things and my knowledge of contract law is good.

i dont know if i am allowed to post this but it isnt advertising so here goes. If anyone knows of a dogue de bordeaux bitch puppy in the lancashire, west yorkshire possibly even further, she will be 5 months soon and her d.o.b is 15.9.06 her kc name is bruella heartbreak and she is endorsed. They will have bought her arround the christmas period, she is a dark red with white on her chest and a few spots on her paws. Please PM me with any information.

I dont know what else i can do other than phone/send an angry email. demanding the info.

Louise

Do you mean d.o.b. 15.9.07?

yeh sorry 15.9.07 i was mad writing it

What a terrible story, as Teri has already highlighted it is out of your hands hun, I really wish that we breeders had more powers over our own pups whereabouts once they have been transfered to new owners.  I wish it was just matter of fact to do so. :-(

The only long shot I can come up with is that you have endorsed her, which may cause someone to contact you to lift it.

They probably do not wish you to have contact with the new owners due to a great difference in the original price. It is obvious they were only after an investment as they should have returned the pup to you if not happy.

In the future you may consider having your pups tatooed, at least if they end up in rescue you would then be informed, unlike with a microchip.

I would be so angry in your place, but looking at it as someone unattached to your pups, you just need to take a deep breath and let it go, there is absolutely nothing you can do. :-(

At least your pup is in a home where she is wanted, the Stud owner never really wanted her so would not have really loved her, so it has to be a plus at least in that way. :-)

In the end i think they sold her for quite abit less than i was, i have found an advert from november.

i may just have to let go and forget and try to avoid this problem in the future, i just wish i could blacklist these people that are in it just for the money and out to screw innocent people for their own benefit.

:( i will phone the kc on monday and see if they can forward my info and a contact number onto them. Just hope for the best and that there are still decent people in this world

I would send a recorded delivery letter to the KC with another letter enclosed for the new owners & the KC will forward your letter to the new owners, then it is up to them if they contact you. The letter to the new owners should only say that your are their dog's breeder & will they contact you.

If you have a Kennel Name you can register on the KC site & you will be able to see all the dogs that are still registered to you-they may not have bothered to transfer her into their names yet !

Sad to hear about this, and hate to put an even worse spin on it, but if you did not hand the papers over at the time of parting with the pup, and have a contract or letter stating that the new owners were aware of the endorsement and agreed to it,  then it was not worth endorsing her - new owners can have it lifted and your wishes will not be taken into account at all.  Hope you do manage to find her new owners, and that they are jsut the kind of peole you want to have one of your "babes"
bye
Gwen

i really hope that you get some joy with this, but as someone has already mentioned she is now with someone who wanted her, and hasnt been bought as a breeding bitch because she is endorsed..

Good Luck

One of our previous litters pups went to a family who had had a pup from us before and we felt confident enough to let them have another, they only had the pup a few weeks before selling it on, they didn't even bother to get the new owners details or let me know, so I wrote a letter to the new owners and sent it off to the KC who then forwarded my letter on to the new owners.  Thankfully they got in touch and I was able to send them pictures of their pup from birth onwards.......they also told me a pack of stories they had been told by the pups first family, so I was able to put them straight on quite a few things......I wondered if this is why I was told they didn't have the details of the family they sold her to!!  This bitch was also endorsed.

Your pup is with a family that want her for a pet, and I'm sure they would love to hear from you.

Good luck!

In the end i think they sold her for quite abit less than i was, i have found an advert from november.

Perhaps you could put an advert in the paper where you saw the pup advertised and say that you are looking for anyone who may have bought a puppy of such and such a breed born on ...... and that you are the original breeder and have some information to pass on about their puppy.

Hopefully your puppy will be in a much better home now and is a loved and valued member of a great family :) Our GR came to us from rescue at 10 weeks old - people who handed him in didn't return him to breeder for various reasons - and he is very much a loved member of our family so landed on his feet. There is probably a breeder out there somewhere who is worrying about him as well.

Maybe the new owners will start looking into her background and contact you. If i bought a pup and had papers i would start looking to see who the parents,grandparents were.And because you have a website  it maybe an idea to put her name on there, just incase they google her name. Just a thought but worth a try.

>If i bought a pup and had papers i would start looking to see who the parents,grandparents were.

It's surprising the number of people who buy a registered pup but never bother to transfer the registration to their name, let alone research the background of their pride and joy.

and could also keep an eye out in the KC Gazette for details of the transfer (although this would provide only a name at best).

Teri you do of course mean the BRS, not the Kennel Gazette. :)

I know that JG . I did the same with my first dog. The paperwork did not mean a thing to me, just a list of silly names (how i looked on it at the time, that is ),but i still sent off my paper work so the dog belonged to me. But now a lot of ppl have the internet and as you see on this forum sometimes ppl come looking for pedigree names , they may not mean a whole lot to the ppl on here but if you buy a dog and you get given names of ancestors, in this day and age some ppl will try and see what is behind their dog.

And because you have a website  it maybe an idea to put her name on there, just incase they google her name. Just a thought but worth a try.

She has a Piczo site, and unfortunately, Piczo sites can NOT be googled.  It states it in the terms of the site agreements.  But it would be worth it to put the dogs info on the site, incase people that know of your site visit, and then see this dog, and wonder.....hmmm could this be the one?

Also, so sorry to hear of this.  In my contracts, all dogs are sold under the agreement that the dog can not be sold, without letting me know, and I have first option to buy the dog back.  If I do not wish to buy the dog back, then I help with the rehoming of the dog.  Dont know if thats comon practise in the UK, but its a very standard clause in contracts in Canada. 

Hopefully when you send a letter to the KC to have them forward the information on, then the new owners will want to contact you. 

Keep us posted

I do feel fot you. How horrible some people are. All I can suggest is either write a letter to the new owner and ask the KC to pass it on for you or have a look in the BRS and try a bit of dectective work if you know where abouts she went to. Good luck and so sorry this has happened to you.

> In my contracts, all dogs are sold under the agreement that the dog can not be sold, without letting me know, and I have first option to buy the dog back

thats what we did for ours to. at least the op will know for next time.

awful thing to happen, i can't believe someone would do this, its not a nice world. i agree, ask the KC to pass on a letter to the new registered owners. make it clear though that your not trying to 'steal' (how they might see it) their new baby away but are simply concerned for the pup. i can;t see anyone objecting to getting better info and support for their pup. good luck with it {{{hug}}}

The pup was a stud fee, i do vet all my new owners of course. They have done everything possible to screw me over. I rang them last night and asked for the details, they again said no, the new owner did not want me to have the details because i endorsed her??????? and that he does have my details and as and when he wants to contact me he will do!! So i said that if you can kindly inform him that i wish to speak with him asap because if he contacts me when he wants the endorsements lifting when she is old enough i shall not do so. She went on saying that the kc automatically lift them at 2 years, which is totally wrong she doesnt have a clue what she is going on about, it turned into a heated debate, how she went behind my back and sold her and lied about so many things then she put the phone down!

I will contact to kc to ask if she has been transferred into his name give my details and ask that i want him to contact me. She said that he was a dog person but if he was he would have known he cant get them lifted without my say. If all this is true i dont understand why he wouldnt want me to have his details because i endorsed her, AFTER i found out she was being sold on i did this to protect the breed and my baby, i dont want her getting into the wrong hands surely any decent person would know this, wether the people have twisted it into a pack of lies or all this is just a lie i dont know. Hopefully i will soon find out.

Thanks Louise

P.s in the future its either a fee or nothing never doing a POL again, because i cant choose who that puppy goes too.

A few weeks after the pups were born, i had doubts about giving them a pup and said can you just take the fee, they refused. What could i say, they wanted a pup to keep to breed themselves they said, which i wasnt happy about because i had a waiting list of 6 people for a girl and she only had 2.

And what i also find weird was that, i would never by a puppy without seeing its mum!!! and i would have thought that he would have rang me to ask about her mum and possibly see pictures of her before the sale went ahead. But what i can think is that, they said that there ddb bitch was her mum possibly??

it's a really awful thing to happen and i would be absloutely raging and devastated. you clearly cannot trust a word this person is saying so i would take what they;ve said about the new owner and this business with endorsement with a pinch of salt. contact the kc and hopefully the person who has her now will be eager to talk to you. i know theres little we can say that will comfort you in this, but its not your fault, you trusted that these people would behave responsibly, though if you breed again i'm sure you;ll be drawing up contracts (i seem to remember brinless putting a copy of hers up for people to look at and it was good, if i'm right can someone advise how to see it?). i'd say don;t contact them again, there obviously not willing to be reasonable and have just upset you more. try the kc and hopefully everything will be fine. big huge hugs.

I can send you my latest draft if you wish, these things tend to evolve with experience. :D

i've just tried googling the name and the only things coming up are posts you've obviously put up looking for her. sorry. only thing i;d say again is that you make it clear in your searching ads that your not trying to take the puppy away from the new owners. they might not want to get in touch if they think you want her back off them. maybe word it as something like 'this puppy was sold on without my consent and i am purely concerned for her welfare and whereabouts. it is not my intention to seperate her from her new home only to confirm she is safe and well and offer any support i can to her new family such as full medical history and breed advice'. just a thought. from the pic on one of your ads of her shes a beautiful girl and they might be scared she'll be taken away.

can i hit you up for a copy in a decade or so when i'm set up to breed my own lol? it was just a really good contract i thought as it offered support to both breeder and new owner, it's a good resource to have available on the site to folk new to breeding. i think its so important now as well as you never know how far you can trust someone, it's horrid to think about something going wrong, but as we see it does

Hi

Thanks i would like to see one possibly to see where to go to shape it for myself, needing to be watertight so i dont get this happening again.

I dont know how anyone can say she is honouring someones wishes when she did that to me. Angers me to think that she thought i was stupid. Arrrrghh!! I shall not be speaking to them ever again. I just want to see pictures of her and know her little quirks and offer any advice, the stud owners dont live too far away so i think they may be the same. I would love to meet up with her and the other pups for a get together one time, and to tell them some home truths about the people they bought her from. Even if they are not my idea of a suitable home i cant take her away from them anyway. Just hope she isnt being kept outside, as i know its snowing up lancashire way :(

if he was he would have known he cant get them lifted without my say.

i endorsed her, AFTER i found out she was being sold on

Hi, Don't know if you  missed my previous post on your topic, and apologise because it is not at all comforting in this situation, but becasue some other posters also seem confused, and to prevent this casuing a problem in the future, I am afraid your endorsements will count for nothing with the KC, as they were put on after the pup had been handed over.  A new owner can therefore ask for them to be lifted and it will be granted, to have a chance of having your endorsement being upheld by the KC the paperwork must be handed over to the new owners at the time of sale or transfer, and a signed acknowledgement kept on record showing that the new owner acknowledges and understands the endorsement(s). 
Sorry this is not good news for you.  Good luck in your search for her.
bye

Gwen

i spoke to the kennel club last night and they havent registered her yet.But if i carry on ringing every few weeks they can let me know and forward a letter to them wishing them to contact me.

That's the best result you an hope for.

Hi just to update on this, i was browsing through the net at adverts as i usually do and i came across her for sale again!! She is now 7 months old, i rang the number immediately and asked why they were selling her and told them about the bad stud owners. Turns out he didnt know anything about me, they said they had bred her. They told him nothing of the endorsements, and when they were asking me for the papers ( postal strike delayed them) it turns out they no longer had her then! I was astounded how many lies they had fabricated. Anywho, the couple that have her now are a nice couple but his wife has had to go back to work and she gets left for long periods alone. We have hopefully found her a nice suitable perminant home. A man who knows the breed allready has a DDB bitch and wants a companion for her and his wife works from home.

I will keep in touch with the new owners and hope she has a perminant home its what she deserves.

Apparantly the stud owners have now sold their DDB thank god but are breeding Shih tzus (sp) tut

Louise

ahh bless yes i remember reading the posts about it..really!! hope!! the next home is a forever!! home..the poor thing caint belive the way the stud owner has went on its awful:(

This is one of the reasons all my pups are ear tattooed, so that no mater where they might turn up, with people being what they are, they can always be identified and traced back to me.

I remember getting into a panic when the dogs Trust had one of my breed in in the area I had sold a pup of that age.  I rang them on a Sunday and had them check for a tattoo which he didn't have.  As it turned out he had come from Scotland and before that from Irish puppy farmers.

A good point about tattoo's - it can cost you as a breeder next to nothing to have your litter done - so I urge anyone reading this post to make contact and get your litter done - there seems to be lots of puppies being born at the moment.  This is just another example of being responsible with your breeding.

Yes here is the website: http://www.dog-register.co.uk/

Would people recommend that you should get your dog done, even if no longer a pup?

Totally agree regards tattoo's - my litter is being done this afternoon (6 weeks)  I have had each of my litters done and although I hate it when the people arrive to do it, I know I am safe guarding my precious babies.

I had mine done as adults, its the only way of permanently identifiing them and the only identification that will stand up in court if there is an ownership dispute.

How do they do it - my dog is a bit of a wimp!!

If you want it done on a your new puppy (Say around 11 weeks old)  how much is it from the vets? Or is there age limits on it after a certain time like docking tails?

I think it works out about £20 per puppy. The vets don't do it but the NDTR will come out to your house to do it. It is done with calipers and ink and is over very quickly. There is no upper age limit to do dogs but I believe they don't like to do it before minimum of 6 weeks old as the ear is too small.

I dont think vets do it, I went to someones house. Cant remember how much it cost either, think it was about £20 or £30 per dog.  Google NDTR and you should get more info.

It isnt a pleasant procedure and one of mine screamed his head off, but is is quick.

The cost for puppies stil with the breeeder under 9 weeks old it's £7 per puppy for the tattooing & £20 for the litter registration, it costs the new owners £20 to transfer the puppy to them selves
For puppies over 9 weeks(or not with the breeder)& adults it £20

For a single dog I would expect the owners to come to me(usually at our dog club as we have a small room we use to tattoo the dogs in), for a few dogs(or a mass tattooing at a dog club or group of friends) I would go to the dogs & owners

It hurts for a second, but my assistant is brilliant & has puppies so relaxed sometimes they never even squeak & the same goes for the adults, who get treats before & after being tattooed(LOL how can you tell we're both dog trainers ?)

When I did Wukee's litter for his breeder, only one puppy kicked up a fuss, but he also kicked up a fuss when he was chipped by me & when he had his puupy vax at the vets-the biggest puppy & the biggest wimp !

There are vets who are also tattooist, but not very many

Do the new owners have to get them transferred into their name or can they be left registered with the breeder, then if the new owner gets them microchipped if they ever go missing there are two chances of getting them back.  Or would that not be the done thing?  I have been trying to decide whether to get mine chipped or tattooed, this could well be the deciding factor, plus how easy are cockers to do, light coloured ones I would imagine would be ok but what about the blacks, they have quite long hair inside their ears?

When a breeder has a litter tattooed, the new owner's transfer the details to their name BUT the NDTR keep a record of the breeder's details as well. So even if the owner moves house and doesn't notify them, there's still another address to contact if the dog is found.

If it helps, mine are tattooed and microchipped. And have name tags too. I like the belt, braces and anything else approach!

I think more and more people are doing both - seriously thinking of doing so with my next litter.  I had my previous litter tattooed for the first time and they were all fine - over and done with quickly with no fuss.

In Response to georgepig

Individual dogs can be done by arranging to visit the tattooist, as they come out for a litter but expect you to visit with an older/single dog.

> If it helps, mine are tattooed and microchipped. And have name tags too. I like the belt, braces and anything else approach!

Same here.

I don't mind if the new owners don't transfer the details on the pups, as that means I am the first person to be contacted.  you would be surprised how many people don't bother to transfer the details, which is why I prefer the tattoos, as how many chipped dogs when scanned, the details are no good as it turns out that the owners moved.

As a breeder I would simply let NDTR know that I had changed details and it would go on their database.